Please explain this to me

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ralphinal

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There are posters on here that keep repeating the same incorrect information about Church teachings. There are some that have many posts that keep getting corrected and they run off and type the same thing again.

My question is multi-part.

First, do you even care about the truth or what anyone says?

If not, why are you on here?

Second, is it possible that we are not doing a good job discussing these things?

Third, do any non-Catholics notice this? If so are you bothered by it?

Finally, do any of you beleive in impenetrable ignorance?
 
You can ask catholics the same thing. There is a poster on here who starts inflamatory threads with assumptions and assertions that are unfounded and stupid and when shown to be wrong just either laughs (and doesn’t address the fact that they are wrong) or complains i.e. whines that protestants are attacking them (and STILL doesn’t address the fact that they are proven wrong). Then they just stop posting on the thread and start new ones claiming this or that unfounded and stupid claim against protestants…

*SIGH, just as much as you are tired of it from protestants, we are SO very over catholics that are doing the same thing… 🤷
 
ralphinal said:
There are posters on here that keep repeating the same incorrect information about Church teachings. There are some that have many posts that keep getting corrected and they run off and type the same thing again.

My question is multi-part.

First, do you even care about the truth or what anyone says?

If not, why are you on here?

Second, is it possible that we are not doing a good job discussing these things?

Third, do any non-Catholics notice this? If so are you bothered by it?

Finally, do any of you beleive in impenetrable ignorance?
Click to expand...
Do you have an example of an topic?
 
quote: raphinal
There are posters on here that keep repeating the same incorrect information about Church teachings. There are some that have many posts that keep getting corrected and they run off and type the same thing again.

My question is multi-part.

First, do you even care about the truth or what anyone says?

If not, why are you on here?

Second, is it possible that we are not doing a good job discussing these things?

Third, do any non-Catholics notice this? If so are you bothered by it?

Finally, do any of you beleive in impenetrable ignorance?
Click to expand...
What I’m not understanding here, is this.

If another states that Catholics ‘worship’ Mary,
that is obviously not the case.

If one reads a defense - of a given point of Catholic doctrine, and to disagree,
because the argument contains much unsupported assertion - as to that which is ‘true,’
that is a different case, entirely.

I have often encountered the concept that if one only ‘understood’
Catholic doctrine - and that on which this is based - that the other would agree with same.

This is the very basis for the existence of various denominations
of Christianity. Catholicism, the earliest Church, refuses to
accept that the CC is one denomination, among many,
insisting that it is the one, true Church.

[Does Orthodoxy make the same claim? That Orthodoxy
is not a ‘denomination,’ but is the true Catholic church?"]

Indulgences, Treasury of Merit, priest as mediator - for one
seeking forgiveness of sin, Marian dogmas, sacramental
system as fonts of grace - all give very good reasons upon
which to dismiss the assertions of the earliest Church,
who considers herself the one, true Church.

Just my thought.

reen12
 
Singinbeauty said:
You can ask catholics the same thing. There is a poster on here who starts inflamatory threads with assumptions and assertions that are unfounded and stupid and when shown to be wrong just either laughs (and doesn’t address the fact that they are wrong) or complains i.e. whines that protestants are attacking them (and STILL doesn’t address the fact that they are proven wrong). Then they just stop posting on the thread and start new ones claiming this or that unfounded and stupid claim against protestants…

*SIGH, just as much as you are tired of it from protestants, we are SO very over catholics that are doing the same thing… 🤷
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True. I thought about addressing it on a “Why are so many of us jerks?” thread.
 
GOP said:
Do you have an example of an topic?
Click to expand...
THe most common one is indulgences. IT seems that no matter the proof presented, there are people who still see it in the incorrect, anti-Catholic way. THe second most is everythign connected to the communion of Saints.
 
reen12 said:
quote: raphinal

What I’m not understanding here, is this.

If another states that Catholics ‘worship’ Mary,
that is obviously not the case.

If one reads a defense - of a given point of Catholic doctrine, and to disagree,
because the argument contains much unsupported assertion - as to that which is ‘true,’
that is a different case, entirely.
Click to expand...
Ok.
I have often encountered the concept that if one only ‘understood’
Catholic doctrine - and that on which this is based - that the other would agree with same.
Click to expand...
I hold this position. However, you must define what it is to understand. Everyone understands things differently. I may reach “understanding” at a different place than you do. Either way, you do not have to understand to know the correct information. I still do not understand women, but I know a lot about them.
This is the very basis for the existence of various denominations
of Christianity. Catholicism, the earliest Church, refuses to
accept that the CC is one denomination, among many,
insisting that it is the one, true Church.

[Does Orthodoxy make the same claim? That Orthodoxy
is not a ‘denomination,’ but is the true Catholic church?"]
Click to expand...
Oh my goodness, do they ever. In fact, the Orthodox/Catholic discussions tend to be more harsh than Catholic/Protestant. To them, we are wrong at best, heretical and possibly apostate at worst.
Indulgences, Treasury of Merit, priest as mediator - for one
seeking forgiveness of sin, Marian dogmas, sacramental
system as fonts of grace - all give very good reasons upon
which to dismiss the assertions of the earliest Church,
who considers herself the one, true Church.

Just my thought.

reen12
Click to expand...
Each of these can be discussed elsewhere. In any event, at what point would you say that the information you are using should eb changed? I am not asking about acceptance of the doctrine. When do you say “Ok, what I thought the Catholics teach is not what they teach?”
 
ralphinal said:
So what can we do better?
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Maybe we could start our post by saying somthing like:

We as catholic believe … because …
instead of an attack.

I’m not good at this thats why I leave it to others.

I do see that the way many are going about things is very damaging.

If the other person doesn’t want to agree then it might be time to wipe off the dust and state the fact again and then get out, instead of insulting or trying to defend ourselves.

Starting threads that accuse to begin with, is just not nessecary and we need to think carefully before starting threads that just are going to be an arguement due to bateing.
 
ralphinal said:
Third, do any non-Catholics notice this? If so are you bothered by it?
Click to expand...
Actually yes, to both questions.

For instance, “worshipping”. It is obvious that Catholics make differences in what is commonly called “worship”, and to them those differences are huge. Thus to argue with the common dictionary definition of “worship” is rather moronic when it comes to God, Mary, Saints or whatever.

Same happens when creationists talk nonsense about “theories” and apply the layman’s definition of “theory” to a scientific theory which is in fact something completely different.

As words usually have several meanings and connotations, it is hard enough to figure out what people with different backgrounds are talking about in the frist place, willfully ignoring well explained definitions of those words is just stupid.
 
AnAtheist said:
Actually yes, to both questions.

For instance, “worshipping”. It is obvious that Catholics make differences in what is commonly called “worship”, and to them those differences are huge. Thus to argue with the common dictionary definition of “worship” is rather moronic when it comes to God, Mary, Saints or whatever.

Same happens when creationists talk nonsense about “theories” and apply the layman’s definition of “theory” to a scientific theory which is in fact something completely different.

As words usually have several meanings and connotations, it is hard enough to figure out what people with different backgrounds are talking about in the frist place, willfully ignoring well explained definitions of those words is just stupid.
Click to expand...
You would be amazed how many people I offend discussing the meaning of theory. A theory has not been disproven and must be accepted as a possibility. You are exactly right on both examples.

Would you say that we should better define things at the onset, or at least when the terms come up?
 
ralphinal said:
There are posters on here that keep repeating the same incorrect information about Church teachings. There are some that have many posts that keep getting corrected and they run off and type the same thing again.

My question is multi-part.

First, do you even care about the truth or what anyone says?

If not, why are you on here?

Second, is it possible that we are not doing a good job discussing these things?

Third, do any non-Catholics notice this? If so are you bothered by it?

Finally, do any of you beleive in impenetrable ignorance?
Click to expand...
It all depends on what you mean by “corrected”. Catholics and non-Catholics have different understandings of history, in many cases.

If you ask a Roman Catholic about their church’s treatment of, say, the Waldensians, they may say that the Waldensians deserved it because of this, that or the other.

However, if you ask a Waldensian, they will see it quite differently.

The Catholic “take” on, say, the Spanish Inquisition is quite different from the Jewish “take” on it.

I remember when I was learning about the Spanish Inquisition in history class in public school, I was shocked…I asked my mother (a former Catholic converted to Judaism) what she thought about it. She told me that in Catholic school, they did not teach anything about it. I don’t know if that is still true, but it may explain why so many Catholics I meet are shocked when they hear about it.

I think what infuriates me is when Catholics who DO know about it, try to play it down or even worse, turn the events back onto the victims. Perhaps I feel more sensitive about this, since it involved part of my ancestral family…but its very insulting when the descendants of those who persecuted your ancestors tries to say a) it didn’t happen, b) it happened but the church was justified in doing it, or c) hardly any Jews were affected (I’ve heard all three replies from varying types of Catholics.)
 
and STILL doesn’t address the fact that they are proven wrong
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Let’s be honest. They have never been proven wrong. There have been some feeble attempts to do so, but they have been proven correct.
 
VWcrazy said:
Let’s be honest. They have never been proven wrong. There have been some feeble attempts to do so, but they have been proven correct.
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So if a person says that Catholics sacrafice virgins to Baal, and it is shown that Catholics never have done this, taught this, or thought about this, and they still persist in saying it, they were not proven wrong?
 
VWcrazy said:
Let’s be honest. They have never been proven wrong. There have been some feeble attempts to do so, but they have been proven correct.
Click to expand...
When it comes to Catholic DOGMA, if the church states the actual way they see things, that is one thing. For example, a Protestant might say, “Catholics WORSHIP Mary!” A Catholic may respond, “No, we VENERATE her, that is not the same as WORSHIP”. And that would be correct. (They even have it broken down into categories, if I remember correctly…dulia, hyperdulia, latria, and so on.)

But as for HISTORY…I recently watched a documentary about the Italian Waldensians, and what the Papal troops did to them when they had to flee for their lives. The Waldensians were non-Catholic Christians who lived before the time of the Protestant Reformation (though once the Reformation took place, they joined forces with them for protection.)

In one case, Papal troops forced 3000 Waldensians into a cave (including 700 children and babies), shoved brush into the mouth of the cave, set it on fire and suffocated all 3000 Waldensians.

Now, I’m sure the Catholic answer to that would be the same as I got for the Spanish Inquisition: a)It never happened; b) it happened but the church was right to do it because they were ‘heretics’, or c) it wasn’t that many killed.

More info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians
 
Sepharad said:
When it comes to Catholic DOGMA, if the church states the actual way they see things, that is one thing. For example, a Protestant might say, “Catholics WORSHIP Mary!” A Catholic may respond, “No, we VENERATE her, that is not the same as WORSHIP”. And that would be correct. (They even have it broken down into categories, if I remember correctly…dulia, hyperdulia, latria, and so on.)

But as for HISTORY…I recently watched a documentary about the Italian Waldensians, and what the Papal troops did to them when they had to flee for their lives. The Waldensians were non-Catholic Christians who lived before the time of the Protestant Reformation (though once the Reformation took place, they joined forces with them for protection.)

In one case, Papal troops forced 3000 Waldensians into a cave (including 700 children and babies), shoved brush into the mouth of the cave, set it on fire and suffocated all 3000 Waldensians.

Now, I’m sure the Catholic answer to that would be the same as I got for the Spanish Inquisition: a)It never happened; b) it happened but the church was right to do it because they were ‘heretics’, or c) it wasn’t that many killed.
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You left out the forth reply: yes, it was done by people in the “name” of the Church. However, it was not done because of dogma or on orders of the Church herself but under the misguided plans of humans who are capable of horrible sins.
 
I think the problem is two-fold:
  1. Too much rationalization.
  2. Too little heart.
We can explain, but if people never feel how we actually feel about the Catholic Church, they will only stay away from Her. It may be hard for us to understand, but people are afraid of the Catholic Church, disturbed by their misunderstandings of the Catholic Church. Sometimes people hate what they fear. Rather than just arguing about the faith, we should also be showing warmth and Love. If we want to win hearts, we won’t do it by doing it our own way - we have to do it Christ’s way.

That means I love you and I consider you my own even before you have learned all that you should, or changed all the ways you should. That means I don’t degrade you as “less Catholic” (something I’ve personally seen) or “less worthy”. Jesus took Mary Magdalene amongst His own even before she had repented and seen her wrongs. It had nothing to do with being correct.
 
ralphinal said:
You would be amazed how many people I offend discussing the meaning of theory. A theory has not been disproven and must be accepted as a possibility.
Click to expand...
Furthermore a well accepted theory is backed up by observation. Gravity is also “just a theory”, still things fall down.
Would you say that we should better define things at the onset, or at least when the terms come up?
Click to expand...
It certainly helps, if people are willing to listen.
 
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