Please explain to me why gay marriage is wrong

[PRmerger]

A bronze serpent does not represent a religious image.

We are agreed, then, that God actually commands the making of images?

BTW: do you believe that creating religious images is prohibited in the Bible?

Read Jeremiah 10. In case you miss it the salient point is “Learn not the way of the heathen.”

Catholics give a hearty amen to Jeremiah 10.

Is there something in the Bible that says that we are not permitted to have statues in our places of worship?

 

[tomberg]

**Also please explain without reference to religion, how idolatry is immoral behavior and a violates natural law? **

 

[PRmerger]

**Also please explain without reference to religion, how idolatry is immoral behavior and a violates natural law? **

It places something of actual no importance in the position of utmost importance.

That violates a general principle of natural law which is: give things their proper due.

Please note: no reference to a religion was made in the above. At all.

 

[tomberg]

With the above paradigm, you have no way to argue with someone who is an adulterer that what he is doing is immoral.

All he has to do is say: well, that’s your religion telling you that.

Think about how otiose your paradigm is, tomberg. What you are advocating is a perilous system that permits all sorts of heinous and deplorable behaviors.

There are plenty of ways I can argue with him, for example, my religion thinks it is immoral, his behavior might be very selfish if he has a wife and children and he is indirectly inflicting harm upon them and putting his own selfish sexual needs above those of those who love him, and I consider this to be immoral behavior. But no, I can not absolutely prove to him that his behavior is immoral.
Yes I am absolutely for a system that allows for all types of what I consider to be immoral behavior without LEGAL interference. We should not enforce consensual adult moral behavior under penalty of law. That is what Sharia Law is about and I am against Theocratic governments whether they be Muslim, Catholic, or Buddhist.

 

[PRmerger]

There are plenty of ways I can argue with him, for example, my religion thinks it is immoral, his behavior might be very selfish if he has a wife and children and he is indirectly inflicting harm upon them and putting his own selfish sexual needs above those of those who love him, and I consider this to be immoral behavior. But no, I can not absolutely prove to him that his behavior is immoral.
Yes I am absolutely for a system that allows for all types of what I consider to be immoral behavior without LEGAL interference. We should not enforce consensual adult moral behavior under penalty of law. That is what Sharia Law is about and I am against Theocratic governments whether they be Muslim, Catholic, or Buddhist.

And all he has to say is: that’s your religious view. I don’t share your religious view.

And you will not be able to refute that.

However, my position is clear: adultery is wrong irrespective of any religious views.

And I would be able to tell this adulterer: what you are doing is wrong.

And he can’t say: well, that’s your religious view…

because I haven’t presented it as a religious view.

 

[frobert]

We are agreed, then, that God actually commands the making of images?

BTW: do you believe that creating religious images is prohibited in the Bible?

Catholics give a hearty amen to Jeremiah 10.

Is there something in the Bible that says that we are not permitted to have statues in our places of worship?

Congratulations you finessed the comment but as usual you neglected the salient factor. If you paid attention to tomberg’s post you would know that his posts on images refer to the 2nd commandment being gutted.

If you read Jeremiah 10 you will know for yourself what the Bible says and what is prohibited.

 

[PRmerger]

There are plenty of ways I can argue with him, for example, my religion thinks it is immoral, his behavior might be very selfish if he has a wife and children and he is indirectly inflicting harm upon them and putting his own selfish sexual needs above those of those who love him, and I consider this to be immoral behavior.

If no one finds out about his adultery, is it still immoral in your opinion?

 

[clem456]

**Also please explain without reference to religion, how idolatry is immoral behavior and a violates natural law? **

Tough to separate anything in life from belief because we all have beliefs , but ok…

If I put my own good ahead of other goods I am idolizing my own good. I put a good ahead of the good, which in a moral context must take into account those around me, right?

It is good for me to be prompt to work. That is a good. But if I idolize myself I will walk by a helpless person who is bleeding to death on the sidewalk, because being prompt to work is my idol and ignores the large good.

1957 Application of the natural law varies greatly; it can demand reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances. Nevertheless, in the diversity of cultures, the natural law remains as a rule that binds men among themselves and imposes on them, beyond the inevitable differences, common principles

Natural law is not a subjective personal or individual thing.

 

[tomberg]

It places something of actual no importance in the position of utmost importance.

That violates a general principle of natural law which is: give things their proper due.

Please note: no reference to a religion was made in the above. At all.

Your response is based upon a fatal logical flaw. You make this statement by direct appeal to YOUR RELIGION. You assume that your faith Christianity should be given its due place, but all other beliefs are false, without having any proper due. That is absolutely flawed logic based upon raising one belief based upon personal preference and then claiming that your belief happens to be the only right and natural choice. You absolutely can not state that Idolatry is immoral without reference to Judeo-Christian belief systems. Otherwise what exactly is idolatry if not the worship of false gods. You can not prove that Christianity is true from Natural Law, it is based entirely upon a supernatural belief system and faith.

 

[clem456]

Your response is based upon a fatal logical flaw. You make this statement by direct appeal to YOUR RELIGION. You assume that your faith Christianity should be given its due place, but all other beliefs are false, without having any proper due. That is absolutely flawed logic based upon raising one belief based upon personal preference and then claiming that your belief happens to be the only right and natural choice. You absolutely can not state that Idolatry is immoral without reference to Judeo-Christian belief systems. Otherwise what exactly is idolatry if not the worship of false gods. You can not prove that Christianity is true from Natural Law, it is based entirely upon a supernatural belief system and faith.

Is it a personal religious belief that an infant needs the care of others to survive?
Is that piece of natural law an invention of religion?

 

[tomberg]

Tough to separate anything in life from belief because we all have beliefs , but ok…

If I put my own good ahead of other goods I am idolizing my own good. I put a good ahead of the good, which in a moral context must take into account those around me, right?

It is good for me to be prompt to work. That is a good. But if I idolize myself I will walk by a helpless person who is bleeding to death on the sidewalk, because being prompt to work is my idol and ignores the large good.

Natural law is not a subjective personal or individual thing.

No I am not talking about making an idol out of yourself, I am talking about the biblical prohibition from worshipping other gods. Please tell me how this is immoral without reference to religion.
Also I also do not believe in Natural Law as being the basis for civil government. I have read the arguments both for and against it and based upon my readings, I am a lawyer after all, I find the idea historically inaccurate and factually incredibly problematic since every religion wants to proclaim in every age that their laws and ideas of morality are what defines natural law, yet from history and anthropology I can find absolutely no consistency as to what these laws might be. Again Moses is considered a hero to many but by today’s moral legal standards he would be considered a vicious and heartless war criminal and either executed or locked up for the rest of his life, and justifiably so. Claiming that god told you to murder and slaughter innocents is no longer considered an acceptable excuse for slaughtering innocent women and children.

 

[PRmerger]

Your response is based upon a fatal logical flaw. You make this statement by direct appeal to YOUR RELIGION.

Nope.

I didn’t mention religion at all. I never mentioned Christianity. I never mentioned God.

Unless you can cite where I did?

If you put spending money on gambling at the casino ahead of spending money on shoes for your baby, you have done an immoral thing by idolizing gambling.

That’s immoral. Why? Because you have given improper importance to something which ought not be given priority.

And notice I haven’t mentioned God or Catholicism or anything religious in the above.

At all.

 

[cena]

Your response is based upon a fatal logical flaw. You make this statement by direct appeal to YOUR RELIGION. You assume that your faith Christianity should be given its due place, but all other beliefs are false, without having any proper due. That is absolutely flawed logic based upon raising one belief based upon personal preference and then claiming that your belief happens to be the only right and natural choice. You absolutely can not state that Idolatry is immoral without reference to Judeo-Christian belief systems. Otherwise what exactly is idolatry if not the worship of false gods. You can not prove that Christianity is true from Natural Law, it is based entirely upon a supernatural belief system and faith.

Homosexuality being wrong is part of natural law (just like stealing, murder, etc.) anyone can figure out it is wrong. Idolatry being wrong is part of divine law

 

[PRmerger]

There is a prohibition against the making of images? What law is that?

I’m quite certain that God commanded the making of images:

So Moses prayed for the people, and the LORD said to Moses,
“Make a saraph and mount it on a pole,
and if any who have been bitten look at it, they will live.”
Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole,
and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent
looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.–Numbers 21:8

Would you mind addressing the above,** tomberg?**

 

[tomberg]

Is it a personal religious belief that an infant needs the care of others to survive?
Is that piece of natural law an invention of religion?

You avoided my question about idolatry without reference to Judeo-Christian belief and attempted to pose a different question to me. Answer my question first and I will be happy to answer yours.

 

[tomberg]

Homosexuality being wrong is part of natural law (just like stealing, murder, etc.) anyone can figure out it is wrong. Idolatry being wrong is part of divine law

Cena I agree with you on this, but this was not the argument that me and PR were having. Go back a few pages and you will see that the subject of our debate is that PR made the statement that what was moral and immoral had nothing to do with religion. I will go back and find the post for you so you can read what it is that we are disagreeing about. I am in complete agreement with your statement above.

 

[tomberg]

There is no such thing as “religious determinations of morality or immorality”.

Things are either good or bad. Moral or immoral.

They are not good because religion says they are good and bad because religion says they are bad.

Unless you want to eliminate social welfare programs because my religion has proclaimed that it is morally good to feed the hungry?

And you want to eliminate laws against domestic violence because my religion professes that beating your wife is immoral?

Here it is Cena. I am directly disagreeing with the statements that there is no such thing as “religious determinations of morality or immorality” they are either good or bad. this is obviously not true as many religions consider things to be moral that other religions consider to be immoral and there is absolutely no way to determine whether the behavior in question is right or wrong without reference to religion.

 

[tomberg]

Would you mind addressing the above,** tomberg?**

I will be happy to do so once you answer my question about how idolatry violates natural law, without direct reference to Judeo-Christian law. What is considered natural law requires no outside or implied reference to religion.

Secondly, what exactly do you want me to address about the making of the image of the Bronze serpent? I am not sure how it is relevant to the discussion we are having but will be happy to answer it once you clarify what exactly it is that you want me to address.

 

[clem456]

Here it is Cena. I am directly disagreeing with the statements that there is no such thing as “religious determinations of morality or immorality” they are either good or bad. this is obviously not true as many religions consider things to be moral that other religions consider to be immoral and there is absolutely no way to determine whether the behavior in question is right or wrong without reference to religion.

Again, is it a religious invention that an infant needs the care of others? Is it immoral to neglect a child?
Show me which religion invented this piece of natural law., or is it simply "written in the hearts of men?

You don’t understand the subject you are debating, which is fine, but you shouldn’t be so belligerent to the people who are answering your questions.

 

[cena]

I personally believe it is immoral and that is based upon my culture and my religion. I can not prove that polygamy is immoral without appeal to religion anymore than Islam and Mormons can point to it being moral outside of their religion. It is entirely determined by religion and culture and there is no universal absolute formula for proving what is moral and immoral like there is with math and geometry. We can all agree that 1 +1 = 2. We obviously do not all agree as to what is moral or immoral. That is exactly why governments should not legislate morality. I am sure you would not want Sharia law being instituted in the US, so why should Catholic Law get any more preference than Sharia law. It is not the place of the government to pick and choose between religions. Only laws which prevent harm to others is the proper sphere of governmental regulation.

We aren’t trying to make laws saying everyone must follow the Church’s rules on fasting and abstinence. Moral laws are different than practical laws.

Catholics aren’t the only ones opposed to homosexual activity.

There are moral truths. There are people in the Middle East who are using the qu’ran to justify raping Christian girls. Does that mean anyone opposing this is going against these people’s religion and we can’t impose our morals on them? No because rape is wrong no matter what the individual thinks. Atheists can figure out rape, murder, etc. are wrong. They can also figure out homosexual behavior is wrong.