Please explain why the first cause/necessary being must be personal

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[QUOTEIf the cause were always causing the effect, then we should be observing the universe as infinitely old.
[/QUOTE]

I thought you were doing very well until you said this. How do we know we aren’t? What does a universe that is infinitely old look like? Don’t we need to answer that before we can conclude that we’re NOT observing that?
 
I’m guessing you’ve heard the Craig reply to this thought, youtube.com/watch?v=NMgX4a4r8gY
I have heard him, yes, but he did not sound convincing to me.
If the atemporal agent was without personal attributes, wouldn’t be more logical to assume that nothingness begets nothingness or the pure act would sustain a state of pure actuality and not create potentiality?
Yes, but the same holds for a personal pure actual being. The only way to get out of this problem is by positing a first cause that is NOT pure act or, as Aristotle did, to posit some kind of eternal potential univrese alogside the pure actual first cause.
Or are you saying the effect is atemporal as well, in other words saying the effect and the cause are both necessary and contingent of each other?
Sorry, but I don’t understand this.
I’m going to do what I probably shouldn’t, but take a reply from another website and apply it.
I think if you do this, you should at least mention the website
You assume that the dropping of the tiny pebble is the only cause. It is not. The other cause is the position of the rocks on the hillside: their large number, their distribution of weights, and their precarious position. Without all of these causes the avalanche would not have occurred. In many ways this is a physics problem, so we can discuss it with physics language. Before the avalanche, the rocks had potential energy, by reason of their position on the hillside. During the avalanche, the rocks have kinetic energy, by reason of their motion. After the avalanche, the energy has become heat energy and dissipated into the air and earth. At no point was any energy created or destroyed. That the effect was not greater than the cause is a way of saying that no energy was created, just changed.
Sure, that’s true: energy cannot be created not destroyed and in that sense, the effect cannot be greater than the cause, because that would mean you get something for nothing. . But in fact, that makes my point and also shows that actualilty cannot possibly lead to potentiality. Because pure cat does not have potentiality. So, in the analogy of the avalanche, an actual being cannot cuase an avalanche because it would mean the PAB (pure actual being) pushed something that wasn’t there and this cuased an avalanche of non-existing material. That seems very absurd to me.
Sorry, PAB?
The Pure Actual Being.
 
There is no evidence whatsoever that disembodied minds exist
No, it is like saying we have no conclusive evidence that the one can exist without nthe other.
I am not claiming an immaterial mind is impossible, all I am claiming is that saying we know that immaterial minds can exist and that they can cause something is patently false. We do not know this.
 
The first cause argument doesn’t have to be personal. And in fact there’s nothing in it that necessitates that there was just one first cause. Could have been two or a zillion!

“Parsimony” calls for one cause, however. The simplest solution wins.
I second that, Edward, but IMO 'an unembodied mind with the capability to create an entire universe from nothing 'is definitely not the simplest solution. An impersonal cause seems much simpler.
 
I second that, Edward, but IMO 'an unembodied mind with the capability to create an entire universe from nothing 'is definitely not the simplest solution. An impersonal cause seems much simpler.
So, one cause, impersonal.

When we use personal-impersonal are we really talking about being, animated matter? If so, in your view, animated being then originated from impersonal entity? Are we on the same page, here?

In my twenties after running across the problems of no first cause, and then thinking about the every day matters in my own (and others) life, such as fear, and love, and sacrifice, and hope, aspirations, regrets, forgiveness, happiness, contentment, joy, etc. I just sort of caved in to the weight of “personal” in my life. All the things that “make up” our lives, at least to me, had to be “present” for a reason. My conclusion was that these ‘things’ were there to remind me that all real life is personal, and that these things must ‘point to’ something eternally personal, and that the mere ‘un-avoidability’ of “personal” in my ordinary life had to be a super-substantial fact, worth deeply pondering and responding to.
 
So, one cause, impersonal.

When we use personal-impersonal are we really talking about being, animated matter? If so, in your view, animated being then originated from impersonal entity? Are we on the same page, here?
Yes, in my view animated being originated from impersonal entity.
In my twenties after running across the problems of no first cause, and then thinking about the every day matters in my own (and others) life, such as fear, and love, and sacrifice, and hope, aspirations, regrets, forgiveness, happiness, contentment, joy, etc. I just sort of caved in to the weight of “personal” in my life. All the things that “make up” our lives, at least to me, had to be “present” for a reason.
Yes, I know that’s a feeling that is the base of lots of religious thoughts. And it’s appealing.
My conclusion was that these ‘things’ were there to remind me that all real life is personal, and that these things must ‘point to’ something eternally personal, and that the mere ‘un-avoidability’ of “personal” in my ordinary life had to be a super-substantial fact, worth deeply pondering and responding to.
Must point to something etrenally personal. Why ‘must’?
 
Yes, in my view animated being originated from impersonal entity.

Yes, I know that’s a feeling that is the base of lots of religious thoughts. And it’s appealing.

Must point to something etrenally personal. Why ‘must’?
What’s the purpose of these personal things? Why do we have them? What’s the cause for such complexity of personal things…our fears, our memory of our feelings, our will, various ways of expressing our will? etc.

Why do we have a will?

And why does it seem that our “personal” aspects have such an order and disorder to them. and what is the role of our will in ordering or disordering these personal aspects.

Why would an impersonal force cause personal forces?

How could something which does not possess something engineer/create it in other beings?
 
What’s the purpose of these personal things? Why do we have them? What’s the cause for such complexity of personal things…our fears, our memory of our feelings, our will, various ways of expressing our will? etc.

Why do we have a will?

And why does it seem that our “personal” aspects have such an order and disorder to them. and what is the role of our will in ordering or disordering these personal aspects.

Why would an impersonal force cause personal forces?

How could something which does not possess something engineer/create it in other beings?
By the porcess commonly known as evolution, perhaps?
 
[QUOTEIf the cause were always causing the effect, then we should be observing the universe as infinitely old.
I thought you were doing very well until you said this. How do we know we aren’t? What does a universe that is infinitely old look like? Don’t we need to answer that before we can conclude that we’re NOT observing that?
[/quote]

We know we are not in an infinitely old universe because current Big Bang Cosmology shows that the universe had a beginning about 13 billion years ago, and that the universe is only 13 billion years old and therefore not infinitely old.
 
We know we are not in an infinitely old universe because current Big Bang Cosmology shows that the universe had a beginning about 13 billion years ago, and that the universe is only 13 billion years old and therefore not infinitely old.
Perhaps my understanding of the Big Bang theory needs to be corrected.

But I thought the theory indicated that the universe expanded from a single point roughly 13 billion years ago.
But it does not say how long the point was there previous to that.

So it could be within the realm of possibility that the universe is much older then that and has only been expanding for the last 13 billion years.
 
Perhaps my understanding of the Big Bang theory needs to be corrected.

But I thought the theory indicated that the universe expanded from a single point roughly 13 billion years ago.
But it does not say how long the point was there previous to that.

So it could be within the realm of possibility that the universe is much older then that and has only been expanding for the last 13 billion years.
As I understand it, this would contradict current Big Bang Cosmology, the point (singularity) is typically considered to be only an ideal point, it does not actually have physical existence. The Big Bang describes the expansion of the universe from nothing 13 billion years ago.
 
Sorry for the delay, been living to work. Not enough time in the day, nor enough off time 😦
Yes, but the same holds for a personal pure actual being. The only way to get out of this problem is by positing a first cause that is NOT pure act or, as Aristotle did, to posit some kind of eternal potential univrese alogside the pure actual first cause.

Sorry, but I don’t understand this.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, was asking if you believe the outside agent, we’ll just say God to shorten things up, is contingent of us as we are contingent of him as well as being both necessesary to each other? Was relating this question to your observation that a possiblity is the universe is an eternal potential while God is an eternal actual. Just almost sounds if they’re both required of each other for being.

But before expounding on this, do you have Dr. Edward Fesser’s book on Aquinas? If you do, he explains this very subject in detail on pages 95-98 under The Third Way. If you don’t, I’ll write it up here or in a PM from the book.
Sure, that’s true: energy cannot be created not destroyed and in that sense, the effect cannot be greater than the cause, because that would mean you get something for nothing. . But in fact, that makes my point and also shows that actualilty cannot possibly lead to potentiality. Because pure cat does not have potentiality. So, in the analogy of the avalanche, an actual being cannot cuase an avalanche because it would mean the PAB (pure actual being) pushed something that wasn’t there and this cuased an avalanche of non-existing material. That seems very absurd to me.
This objection is interlinked to the explaination above.
I really do not understand this. How does nothing become potential if it does not get this potentiality from something else? And it cannot get this potentiality from the PAB, because that being is, by definition, pure act and does not have, has never had and will never have, potentiality. That is, of course, if you are an orthodox Thomist.
Sorry, PAB?
The Pure Actual Being.
Ah, thank you.

This is answered in the book I referred to above, and in the same pages I suggested.

But like I said, if you don’t have the book I won’t be troubled writing up the passages that can relate here.
 
Sorry for the misunderstanding, was asking if you believe the outside agent, we’ll just say God to shorten things up, is contingent of us as we are contingent of him as well as being both necessesary to each other? Was relating this question to your observation that a possiblity is the universe is an eternal potential while God is an eternal actual. Just almost sounds if they’re both required of each other for being.
Well, no, that’s not the way I see it. The universe is not required for God’s being, but neither is, in my view God required for the universe’s being. If God exists and is pure act, then in fact He is irrelevant to anything outside Him.
But before expounding on this, do you have Dr. Edward Fesser’s book on Aquinas? If you do, he explains this very subject in detail on pages 95-98 under The Third Way. If you don’t, I’ll write it up here or in a PM from the book.
I have read some articles by Freser, but I haven’t read his book on Aquinas. So, if you can write it up, or give a summary of his argument, I’ll be delighted.
But like I said, if you don’t have the book I won’t be troubled writing up the passages that can relate here.
OK, I would be very glad if you did.
 
👍

No one has even the modicum of a clue, in answering such a transcendental question.

When Christ gives you the answer some day, you probably will laugh for thinking anyone, other than Christ, could.

🙂
 
It has to be God because it had to exist before matter or energy. Something had to create matter and energy. All that is couldn’t have happened by chance and had to start with a singular source with all the perfections of intelligence and power. This singular and simple source had to be a being. By definition, a being is composed of matter and soul. A soul because, by definition, is non-material with full intelligence and power to create. Also, I would say that we have in our being a natural longing for God. I’ve heard that missionaries that found natives in the woods who had never heard of God or the gospel, worshipping a god, which points to something innate in man. Finally, we know because God revealed Himself to the human race through history. We have eyewitnesses.
 
Well, no, that’s not the way I see it. The universe is not required for God’s being, but neither is, in my view God required for the universe’s being. If God exists and is pure act, then in fact He is irrelevant to anything outside Him.
Let’s note this is part of an argument, the entire whole is what’s to be taken in. I really suggest his book, made me an “orthodox” Thomist but also clears heavy misinterpetations of Aquinas’s metaphysical commitments and re-establishes his metaphysics as a living philosophy today, not dead. This is under The Third Way, speaking of contingent and necessary. This part of the entire argument is only trying to prove the existence of God, without observation of personal or impersonal processes. I believe we can find the personal processes in the henological and teleological arguments (4th and 5th way) Aquinas was trying to convey in his orthodoxy, not in the contemporary philosophical sense. But that’s later. Anyhow …

"…critics of the Third Way might think to challenge the premise that “that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing,” so as to undermine the claim that if there was ever a time when nothing existed, then nothing would exist now. But this premise is just a variation on the principle of casuality… …A more promising strategy for the critic might seem to be to suggest (as J.L. Mackie does) that even if individual contingent things all go out of existence, there might still be some underlying stuff out of which they are made (a “permanent stock of matter,” in Mackie’s words) which presists throughout every generation and corruption.Now if this were so, then what would follow, given the Aristotelian conception of neccessity we’ve been describing, is that this stock of material stuff would itself count as a necessary being. But (so the suggestion continues) the critic could happily accept this (as Mackie does) given that such a “necessary being” would, in view of its material nature, clearly not be divine.

The trouble with this reply, though, is that it falsely purports to be asserting something that Aquinas would deny. In fact, surprising as it might seem, Aquinas would be quite happy, at least for the sake of argument, to concede that the material world as a whole might be a kind of necessary being, in the relevant sense of being everlasting or non-transitory. After all, as we have repeated many times, Aquinas does not think that proving the existence of God requires showing the material world had a beginning. Moreover… … Aquinas himself insists that while individual material things are generated and corrupted, matter and form thselves are (apart from special divine creation, at which he would not appeal for the purposes of the argument at hand lest he argue in a circle) not susceptible of generation and corruption. Far from regarding the notion of the material world as necessary as a blow to the project of the Third Way, Aquinas would in fact regard it as a vindication of his claim that there must be a necessary being. Indeed, he recognizes the existence of other non-divine necessary beings as well, such as angels and even heavenly bodies.

(continued)
 
That this should not be surprising, and in particular that it should not be regarded as damaging to the aim of proving the existence of God specifically, should be evident when we remember that proving the existence of a necessary being is only one component of the overall argumentative strategy of the Third Way. For recall that at this stage of the argument Aquinas immedately goes on to say that “every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not” and then argues that a series of necessary beings cannot go on to infinity. This might seem very odd to those contemporary philosophers who think of necessity in terms of possible worlds or who regard all necessity as logical necessity. “How could a necessary being get its necessity from another?” such a philosopher might ask. “It either exists in all possible worlds or it does not, or the assertion of its non-existence either involvesa self-contradiction or it does not. End of story.Certainly there can be no question of anything causing it to exist in all possible worlds or causing it to be logically necessary!” But when we keep in mind that Aquinas does not mean “necessary” in the sense in which such contemporary philosophers understand it, but rather in the sense of “everlasting” or “permanent,” we can see that it makes perfect sense to consider wheather a thing’s necessity is derived or not. In particular, we can see that it is not enough to show that the material universe as a whole (or an angel, a heavenly body, or whatever) is a necessary being in the relevant sense. One also needs to know whether instead it must derive its necessity from something else, from something which keeps it in existence everlastingly.

It is immeditately obvious, however, that matter qua matter cannot possibly have its necessity of itself, at least on an Aristotelian conception. For matter considered apart from anything else, and in particular apart from form, is just “prime matter” or pure potentiality; and pure potentiality, since by definition it has no actuality, has no reality either, necessary or otherwise. Matter exists only insofar as it is combined with substantial form to comprise a substance. Nor would it help the critic of the Third Way to suggest that it is matter and form together that consitute a necessary being having of itself its own necessity. For one thing… … individual material things are constantly going out of existence and thus losing their forms, and it is in their nature to do so. Hence it cannot be any particular material substance, but only prime matter, which can bee said to be everlasting (and prime matter, for the reasons just given, cannot have its everlastingness of itself). Second, even if there coould be some composite of form and matter which exists everlastingly, since in purely material substances form depends on matter just as matter depends on form, we would have (as Martin has pointed out) an explanatory vicious circle unless we appealed to something outside the form/matter composite on which it depends for its existence. Third, since (given Aquinas’s doctrine of essence and existence) the existence of any material thing is distinct form its essence, we would need in any case to appeal to something outside it in order to explain how its essence and existence come together so as to make it real. (Note that this particular point would apply to material things even if, contrary to Aristotle and Aquinas, we did not regard them as composites of form and matter.) There is no way, then, plausibly to hold that matter might have its necessity of itself. Even a “necessarily existing” or everlasting material world would have to depend on something outside it for its existence. And this something could not itself be a composite either of form and matter or essence and existence, on pain of infinite regress."
 
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