Please explain!

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Dan-Man916:
Maria,

as I stated in the last post, we can easily get lost in the meaning of words. Words can have different meaning to different groups.
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This is the exact argument I use for most discussions on what Catholics believe/teach and what the Byzantines (both Catholic and Orthodox) believe/teach.

It all falls to words and what they mean for a given group.

I have used examples from my work, I am a UNIX Sa. When I talk of processes and users I am not talking about the same thing that an Oracle Database Admin is talking about when he talks about processes and users.
 
You are just going to confuse the situation by saying what you said without going into a rigorous discussion of the differences between dulia, hyper-dulia, and latria.
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I disagree.

Yes, the argument is not as simple as we would like, but watering down the truth of this can have some real harsh consequences. What’s a Protestant to think when he hears the “we don’t pray to saints” comment, and then reads a prayer-card, an approved one, that asks certain saints for certain favors, and does not explicitly say “please pray for me.” Or what will they make of a prayer like “Hail, Holy Queen,” or any of the number of Eastern prayers to the Saints and Our Lady, that even ask the saints to “save” us?

At that point, they will be even more confused.

And for Catholics struggling on this issue, their devotion to Mary and the saints will be extremely cold. They won’t talk to the saints directly, or affectionately, but simply tell them “pray for me.” There’s nothing sinful about this, but it does make the Communion of Saint far less personal when we reduce our devotions to a mere “please pray for me” scenario.
 
For example, what will the uneducated Catholic, or the Protestant who’s been told “We don’t pray to Mary,” think of this popular Marian prayer, the Sub Tuum Praesidium:
We turn to you for protection,holy Mother of God. Listen to our prayers and help us in our needs. Save us from every danger, glorious and blessed Virgin.
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Now try telling people we don’t pray to Mary, and with a straight face.
 
D V,

if you are going to explain the advanced concepts, then you need to prepare their foundation.
All prayers/devotions/adorations to the saints are directed at Jesus.

To pray, Hail Holy Queen, ultimately, is to speak about Jesus as King.

If we’re going to be discussing the advanced topics, then please first establish the Christ-centered basis for which we do these things.

My experience with this is from RCIA, of which I am a sponsor.
You can’t just go and tell someone we pray to the saints without telling them first about what the communion of saints is, that we are all One Body in Christ, and how Christ is the head of the Body and everything is ultimately to him.

In mathematical terms, we need Algebra before Calculus or we’ll never know the significance of what a function f(x) is.
 
if you are going to explain the advanced concepts, then you need to prepare their foundation.
All prayers/devotions/adorations to the saints are directed at Jesus.
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I guess I just don’t see what’s so “advanced” about this. I can pull from my mind dozens, perhaps hundreds, of examples, of how we on earth ask others to pray for us, ask natural favors of others, and even give honor to certain people, all without detracting from the worship we give God.

I think what needs to be asked is why all this suddenly becomes idolatrous just because the individual in question has entered immortality. I find that Protestants are never able to answer this, except those who believe in some sort of “soul-sleep” after death.
You can’t just go and tell someone we pray to the saints without telling them first about what the communion of saints is, that we are all One Body in Christ, and how Christ is the head of the Body and everything is ultimately to him.
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I agree with you 100% here. But this can be done without making foolish and misleading generalizations like “We don’t pray to saints.”
 
D V

well i would agree with you about the statement “praying to the saints”. I was not the one who made that comment.

like i defined in my post, to pray simply means to ask.
 
I am doing an illustration of Mary and Child on scratchboard (I have been given the gift of illustrating 👍 ) and last night when I was sketching, I suddenly feel closer to Mary in a way. So hmmm…something to do think about? :hmmm:

blessings,
Nicole
 
Paris Blues:
Let me get this clear…so BEFORE Mary was born, she would’ve been born a sinner like the rest of us but since it was a fulfillment, her sins were not even a part of her? :o I’m sorry! I am soooo ignorant on this!!!

blessings,
Nicole
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I didn’t mean the fulfillment was the cause.

How about this…God uses prophecy right? So one of the things you use to know if a person who says he is speaking for God is genuine is whether his prophecies are fulfilled. God knows the future since He is outside of Time so speaks prophecy through his prophets. Then he fulfills them.

Mary was born without original sin, without Eve’s fallen nature, because she now has the opportunity to say “YES” to God where Eve said “NO”.

Again, Mary is the new Eve and the new Ark. It all fits, see?
 
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jpusateri:
I didn’t mean the fulfillment was the cause.

How about this…God uses prophecy right? So one of the things you use to know if a person who says he is speaking for God is genuine is whether his prophecies are fulfilled. God knows the future since He is outside of Time so speaks prophecy through his prophets. Then he fulfills them.

Mary was born without original sin, without Eve’s fallen nature, because she now has the opportunity to say “YES” to God where Eve said “NO”.

Again, Mary is the new Eve and the new Ark. It all fits, see?
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Yeah, I think I kinda get it! :o

blessings,
Nicole
 
I suggest going to a library and getting Scott Hahn’s Hail Holy Queen.

Also, if you think about who Jesus is, then it helps to understand why we believe Mary is not the same as we are. To be the Mother of God (Jesus is the second person of the Trinity and therefore is God the son), sets her apart from us. I’ve read that defining Mary came from defending the beliefs about Jesus to avoid heresies. I’m a somewhat new Catholic, so maybe I am not explaining this too well, but I also thought The Church was going too far in its views about Mary until I gave more thought to the fact that we believe she is the Mother of God. Yes, it can seem unbelievable, but remember that God can do anything and it would make sense that the Mother of his Son would be very special indeed, wouldn’t it?
 
even tho you are at college, you are on line, so you have the bible and the catechism available to you. you also have all the threads on this forum, so you can search on the topic you are interested in. you also have the CA tracts and library on the CA home page. do a little research–it will help you be a better student over-all. what is good about asking your questions here is that you will here from people who struggled with the same issues, and see how they came to faith. After CA (the bestest and the mostest) also check out catholic.org and catholic.net for resources and links
 
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