Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when...

[jlhargus]

Perhaps the guy feels that, based on historical evidence, there is a better case to be made for the proposition that the resurrection of Christ is mere legend than there is for the proposition that the CC is the one true Church.

JL: As a fromer non-denominational fundamentalist Bible Church member here is my scripture evidence for the CC, also I can name leaders in every generation. Can you name one leader of your faith group in the first, second, third, fourth or any century before fifteen hundred? You probably can’t name one more than seventy five years ago.

Mt16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?

[Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, **he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES;]
JN 17:18 As thou hast SENT ME into the world, even so have I ALSO SENT THEM into the world. 19 And for their sakes I SANCTIFY MYSELF, THAT THEY ALSO MIGHT BE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE TRUTH. 20 NEITHER PRAY I FOR THESE ALONE, but FOR THEM ALSO WHICH shall BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD; 21 THAT THEY all may BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that THOU hast SENT ME.

Christ chose, prayed for and SENT one specific VISIBLE group, the Apostles Fellowship, whom he sanctified through the truth. Hearing their word and being ONE in fellowship, with THEM, the world may believe the Father sent him. I don’t think Christ meant, he would only be with that fellowship and it would only be one, just while the apostles were alive, but to the end of the world.

Mt28:16 Then THE ELEVEN disciples WENT away into Galilee, INTO A MOUNTAIN where JESUS had APPOINTED them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And JESUS came and SPAKE UNTO THEM, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 GO ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING ** them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, ** I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.
The great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given sent, with his authority, the apostles to TEACH ALL to observe ALL he taught. They were to go to ALL nations (universal, catholic). Only the apostles were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them TILL THE END of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end and Christ knew that. But their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule, by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop, in an unbroken line, till the end.
DN 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGODM which shall never be destroyed and THE KINGDOM shall not be left to other people but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER,
Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be CALLED THE SON OF THE HIGHEST and the Lord GOD SHALL GIVE unto HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER and OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END.

[Lk22:29 And I APPOINT unto YOU A KINGDOM, AS MY FATHER hath APPOINTED unto ME; 30 THAT YE MAY EAT AND DRINK AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM, and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. 31 And THE LORD SAID, Simon, SIMON, behold, SATAN HATH DESIRED TO HAVE YOU, THAT HE MAY SIFT YOU AS WHEAT: 32 But I HAVE PRAYED FOR **THEE, that THY FAITH FAIL NOT: and WHEN thou art CONVERTED, STRENGTHEN THY BRETHREN.
The apostles sit on thrones judging, they also eat and drink at Christ’s table in his kingdom. Catholics are gathered in union with our bishops around the table of the Lord where we eat and drink, Christ’s body and blood, at every mass.

When Peter is converted HIS FAITH WILL NEVER FAIL, he is to STRENGTHEN ALL THE BRETHREN as Universal Pastor. Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular in the Greek) Peter’s faith fail not. This was said in the presents of the other apostles. Christ promised Peter’s faith alone would not fail, implying all must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter. Those not in union with Peter’s faith even though they have apostolic secession can teach error. My Bishop or any number of Bishops can teach error if not in union and agreement, with the successor of Peter.

JN 21:14-17 Jesus asked Peter three times, “do you love me more than these” THESE, would be the other apostles. After being asked three times and replying three times, “yes”. Christ said to Peter, the first time, “feed MY lambs”, the second time, “feed MY sheep”, the third time, “feed MY sheep”. Peter is to feed ALL the sheep in Christ’s flock, not some, but ALL the sheep Christ has purchased with his blood, the lambs and the sheep, the young and the old, the little ones and the great. CONTINUED1

 

[jlhargus]

[Acts2:41 Then **THEY THAT gladly **RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED: AND **the same day there were **ADDED UNTO THEM **about three thousand souls. 42 And **THEY CONTINUED **stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREADKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS.] What were they added to? ONE VISABLE APOSTLIC FELLOWSHIP, ONE DOCTRINE, Breaking of Bread is another term for mass, and in prayers (liturgy).

[1Cor1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. 10 Now I BESEECH YOU, BRETHREN, BY the name of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, that ye all SPEAK THE SAME THING, AND that there be NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; but that ye BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER in the SAME MIND and IN THE SAME JUDGMENT.] One fellowship, one faith, one baptism, one Lord and God of all no matter where it is located in the world. Lk24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I SEND THE PROMISE OF MY FATHER: but TARRY ye IN the city of JERUSALEM, UNTIL YE BE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Jn14:26 But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU. Jn16:13 Howbeit when he, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, IS COME, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.]

Christ is speaking to the Apostolic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through the sacrament of Holy Orders, an unbroken line of successors, by laying on of hands, till the end of the world.

Apostolic succession thru the sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination, by laying of hands, from the apostles to the bishops to bishops in an unbroken line till the END. [Hb13:7 **Remember them which HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU , who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. Hb13:17 OBEY THEM THAT HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]

Ordination gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit to enable ordained to fulfill his mission. [2Tim1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS. 7 For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; **BUT OF POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.] [Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all long suffering and doctrine.]

Titus1:7 For A BISHOP must be blameless, as THE STEWARD OF GOD; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD AS HE HATH BEEN TAUGHT, THAT he may be able BY SOUND DOCTRINE both to EXHORT and TO CONVINCE the gainsayers.

Titus1:5 FOR THIS CAUSE LEFT I THEE IN CRETE, that THOU SHOULDEST SET IN ORDER the THINGS that are WANTING, AND ORDAIN ELDERS IN EVERY CITY, AS I had APOINTED THEE.

Acts14:23 And WHEN THEY HAD ORDAINED them ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Titus1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, THAT THEY MAY BE SOUND IN THE FAITH;

Titus2:1 But SPEAK thou the THINGS WHICH BECOME SOUND DOCTRINE: 2 THAT the aged MEN BE sober, grave, temperate, SOUND IN FAITH, in charity, in patience.
Titus2:15 THESE things SPEAK, and EXHORT, and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.

Acts20:28 TAKE HEED therefore unto yourselves, and TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the WHICH THE HOLY GHOST HATH MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, which he hath PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

1 TIM 5:17 Let the ELDERS that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE.

[1Tim4:13 Till I come, GIVE ATTENDANCE TO READING, to EXHORTATION, **TO DOCTRINE. 14 NEGLECT NOT THE GIFT that is IN THEE, which was GIVEN thee by prophecy, WITH THE LAYING ON OF THE HANDS of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 TAKE HEED UNTO THYSELF, and UNTO THE DOCTRINE; CONTINUE IN THEM: for in DOING THIS thou SHALT both SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM THAT HEAR THEE.] ONE Correct DOCTRINE is of utmost importance to that ONE APOSTOLIC FELLOWSHIP, thru correct DOCTRINE people are saved.

I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not ordained and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. Except false teachers, who may even have been ordained by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They GO OUT on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology. CONTINUED2

 

[jlhargus]

[Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT] Jer23:21 I HAVE NOT SENT THESE PROPHETS, yet they ran: I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO THEM, yet they prophesied.] Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God HEARTH US; he that is not of God heareth not US. HEREBY KNOW WE the spirit of TRUTH, AND the spirit of ERROR.]

US would be the Church. The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority SENT by ChrisT. Mt28:16-20 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. TEACH the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. SANCTIFY by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, GOVERN the Church for good order,

[Jn17:21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE **ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.]

The Catholic Church continues steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one fellowship Christ sent to teach all nations, all he commanded, Mt 28:20. He promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16, to those whom Christ send we must listen. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17.

I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead us in all truth, not hit and miss truth. To follow those, Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught. The Church to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth, 1 TM 3:14.

[Eph3:7 Whereof I WAS MADE A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace OF GOD given unto me BY the effectual WORKING OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And **TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is **THE

FELLOWSHIP** of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,] [2Cor5:20 Now then **we are ambassadors for Christ, as though GOD did BESEECH YOU BY US: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.]

Two of the greatest brothers, Peter and Paul, went from Palestine to Rome, where both were martyred. The successor of Peter is the bishop of Rome, and holds the keys of the Davidic kingdom a type or foreshadowing of the regenerated and restored spiritual kingdom of Israel in the new covenant (Mt 19:28). Christ the Son of David is king in David’s line, who will build a house for God, (2Sam 7:12-14). Peter is the first minister (prime minister) [Isa22:19 I will drive you from your station 20 I will call my servant Eliakim 21 I will commit your government to his hand he shall be a father to the people of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay on his shoulder so he shall open and none shall shut he shall shut and none shall open] Eliakim will be the new Prime Minster and called father of Jerusalem, in the Davidic Kingdom, he will succeed Shebna.

So in the regenerated spiritual Kingdom of David, of which Christ is now king, Peter is appointed First Minister and called father=pope in the new Jerusalem=Church. The keys indicate the holder has authority over the other royal ministers (or apostles) as they do not receive keys, also indicates the head office has successors. When the office is vacant it is filled by the King in David’s line, who is Christ, with another by giving of the keys. Jesus alluded to this passage when giving the keys to Peter, Mt 16. CONTINUED3

 

[jlhargus]

Incidentally if Christ is King in David’s line, his mother, which all generations will call blessed, is Gebirah (Queen Mother) 1Kings 2:19. From Solomon the son of David, who built a house for God, there was an office of queen mother in the Dividic Kingdom, the type and foreshadowing of the regenerated spiritual Kingdom. The king Christ, the Son of David, is building a habitation for God of living stones. [Eph3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 **Unto him be glory IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, world without end. Amen.] :

The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with it’s decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 For **it seemed good to the HOLY GHOST, and to US, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;] using their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority, SENT by Christ, speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christians knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY and without dispute in Antioch, Acts15.

Paul even checked his teaching with that one fellowship. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.] Even though sent by Christ, Paul went by revealation to verify his teachings with the ONE Fellowship, to be sure he was not running in vain. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS, ALL Christ commanded, till the END of the age, Mt28:16-20. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide into ALL TRUTH, Jn16:13. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD (mass), and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were ADDED to the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE, that they may ALL be One VISIBLE Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship, as Christ prayed in the garden. [Jn17:21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.] ]

Eph4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, for the work of the ministry, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 THAT WE henceforth BE NO MORE CHILDREN, TOSSED TO AND FRO, and carried about WITH EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom THE WHOLE BODY FITLY JOINED TOGETHER AND COMPACTED by that which EVERY JOINT SUPPLIETH, according to the effectual working in the measure of EVERY PART, maketh INCREASE OF THE BODY unto the edifying of itself in love.

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR [Therefore we do not listen to men, the spirit of error, to be taken in by false teachers and every wind of doctine men can devise through sola scriptura, that tradition of men made a doctrine of God.]

Jn17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me THROUGH THEIR WORD; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE; and THAT THE WORLD MAY KNOW that THOU HAST SENT ME, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He is praying for the apostles and ALL who will believe in HIM thru their word throughout history. That they ALL be ONE indivisible BODY. Just as the TRINITY is one indivisible BEING, God. We in them, they in us thru the Holy Spirit. He is praying not only for spiritual UNITY and oneness, but also VISIBLE ONENESS so the world may SEE and BELIEVE the Father sent Him. Jesus shares his glory in giving his authority and gifts to the Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

That seems like an odd way to put things…perhaps you misunderstood the poster? Perhaps the guy feels that, based on historical evidence, there is a better case to be made for the proposition that the resurrection of Christ is mere legend than there is for the proposition that the CC is the one true Church. That would make more sense to me…Or if the guy preferred atheism, then I guess it would be that, based on (historical) evidence, there is a better case to be made for the proposition that there is no God than there is for the proposition that the CC is God’s one true Church.

Sounds pretty much the same to me. Find it easier to believe there is no God rather than accept that there might be one true Church, especially if that’s the Catholic Church. Has a very ‘anti-Catholic’ ring to it, in my opinion.

well let’s keep in mind that we all think that we have a handle on the truth…a person who rejects the CC as the one true Church does so b/c he believes that such a claim is against the truth. From his prespective, the people that believe the CC to be the one true Church are those who are misled. Perhaps we should acknowledge that the truth (as to the CC being the one true Church) is not so obvious that reasonable, intelligent and spiritual people can not end up on the opposite sides of this issue. Perhaps we shouldn’t merely declare that those on the other side are stubborn or self-destructive…just saying…

Still ringing…what do you expect Catholics, on a Catholic forum, to accept as truth? Should we preach anything else? I don’t think so.

 

[adrift]

I’m impressed.

The evidence is?

 

[Dokimas]

The evidence is?

Your asking me for the evidence for why I’m impressed?

 

[Irish_Polock]

I am. I may not agree but I wish to understand why you believe as you do. Just because I might challenge what you say does not mean that I am not interested in it. You (meaning me too) should have some reasoning for belief.

Would you change your opinion if the evidence was strong enough?

I agree that we should have reasons for belief.

BTW, I don’t care exactly when the CC in it’s present state started. The evidence does not point to the first century. This does NOT mean that God doesn’t use it to His glory, it just means the church Jesus inagurated is far bigger than the CC, IMO.

Yep!

I’m impressed.

The evidence is?

Your asking me for the evidence for why I’m impressed?

Hope this might help.

 

[adrift]

Hope this might help.

It does. Thanks

 

[Radical]

Sounds pretty much the same to me. Find it easier to believe there is no God rather than accept that there might be one true Church, especially if that’s the Catholic Church. Has a very ‘anti-Catholic’ ring to it, in my opinion.

I suppose it is determined by how eager one is to slap a negative label onto another. Let’s say that same fellow felt that, based on historical evidence, there is a better case to be made for the proposition that that the CC is the one true Church than there is for the proposition that the Mormon Church is the restoration of the one true Church. Would you feel it was appropriate to label him (and all those who shared his opinion) as very anti-Mormon…or that such a conclusion has a very anti-Mormon ring to it?.

Still ringing…what do you expect Catholics, on a Catholic forum, to accept as truth? Should we preach anything else? I don’t think so.

No that is not my expectation…but I note that in the real world there are many Catholics (most?) who do not accept everything that the Catholic hierarchy teaches. BTW, on a thread challenging non-Catholics to name the guy who founded the CC, did you expect the non-Catholics to adopt the conservative Catholic answer to the question? What I find rather odd is that the conservative Catholics (on this thread) speak as if the the matter is so clear that there can only be one obvious/possible answer. Yet, in the real world, it isn’t even the case that anywhere near all of the Catholic scholars are prepared to endorse the conservative Catholic claim (let alone the non-Catholic scholars). Given that reality, I suppose that one could simply declare the majority of scholars to be anti-Catholic, or one could conclude that it is possible for reasonable, intelligent and spiritual people to hold to the other view.

 

[Dokimas]

Hope this might help.

I guess it goes back even further because in all your hard work I don’t see what ‘the evidence is’ is referring to.

I suspect it has to do with my initial response on this thread. I thought I cleared this up. I’m not interested in revisiting this so you’ll just have to go backwards in this thread until you get your answer. Sorry, but it’s not worth going over again, IMO.

 

[Dokimas]

I suppose it is determined by how eager one is to slap a negative label onto another. Let’s say that same fellow felt that, based on historical evidence, there is a better case to be made for the proposition that that the CC is the one true Church than there is for the proposition that the Mormon Church is the restoration of the one true Church. Would you feel it was appropriate to label him (and all those who shared his opinion) as very anti-Mormon…or that such a conclusion has a very anti-Mormon ring to it?.

No that is not my expectation…but I note that in the real world there are many Catholics (most?) who do not accept everything that the Catholic hierarchy teaches. BTW, on a thread challenging non-Catholics to name the guy who founded the CC, did you expect the non-Catholics to adopt the conservative Catholic answer to the question? What I find rather odd is that the conservative Catholics (on this thread) speak as if the the matter is so clear that there can only be one obvious/possible answer. Yet, in the real world, it isn’t even the case that anywhere near all of the Catholic scholars are prepared to endorse the conservative Catholic claim (let alone the non-Catholic scholars). Given that reality, I suppose that one could simply declare the majority of scholars to be anti-Catholic, or one could conclude that it is possible for reasonable, intelligent and spiritual people to hold to the other view.

Well said.

 

[adrift]

I guess it goes back even further because in all your hard work I don’t see what ‘the evidence is’ is referring to.

I suspect it has to do with my initial response on this thread. I thought I cleared this up. I’m not interested in revisiting this so you’ll just have to go backwards in this thread until you get your answer. Sorry, but it’s not worth going over again, IMO.

I missed this post from you and so am reposting for others

BTW, I was at the health club this morning thinking about this discussion. It occurred to me that, I guess, you could say I was ‘playing a game’ with my first post, ‘Constintine’. It may have been a game in the sense that I have no clue and I don’t care who started the present form of the CC, it’s none of my business.

 

[Dokimas]

I missed this post from you and so am reposting for others

Thank you for adding this post.

And I hope you get the sense that any ‘game playing’ was NOT the intent.

 

[adrift]

Thank you for adding this post.

And I hope you get the sense that any ‘game playing’ was NOT the intent.

Of course never thought it was.

 

[Irish_Polock]

I suppose it is determined by how eager one is to slap a negative label onto another. Let’s say that same fellow felt that, based on historical evidence, there is a better case to be made for the proposition that that the CC is the one true Church than there is for the proposition that the Mormon Church is the restoration of the one true Church. Would you feel it was appropriate to label him (and all those who shared his opinion) as very anti-Mormon…or that such a conclusion has a very anti-Mormon ring to it?.

No that is not my expectation…but I note that in the real world there are many Catholics (most?) who do not accept everything that the Catholic hierarchy teaches. BTW, on a thread challenging non-Catholics to name the guy who founded the CC, did you expect the non-Catholics to adopt the conservative Catholic answer to the question? What I find rather odd is that the conservative Catholics (on this thread) speak as if the the matter is so clear that there can only be one obvious/possible answer. Yet, in the real world, it isn’t even the case that anywhere near all of the Catholic scholars are prepared to endorse the conservative Catholic claim (let alone the non-Catholic scholars). Given that reality, I suppose that one could simply declare the majority of scholars to be anti-Catholic, or one could conclude that it is possible for reasonable, intelligent and spiritual people to hold to the other view.

The traditional Catholic view is the same that the Mother Church has espoused. Dissident Catholic scholar’s are not describing the teachings of the Church as taught by the Magisterium, and therefore traditional Catholics tend not to give them much credit. If a Catholic scholar denies what the Catholic Church has Dogmatically or Infallibly defined, they are anathema. Further, your argument is a Red Herring, and is distracting to what the Church has taught on this issue. The Church is guided by a far more authoritarian source then a mere “consensus of scholars” (which has yet to be proven on your part), so why argue this point? This fallacy has availed you nothing, in your attempt to criticize the Catholic Church; we know there are wolves amongst the flock.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The traditional Catholic view is the same that the Mother Church has espoused. Dissident Catholic scholar’s are not describing the teachings of the Church as taught by the Magisterium, and therefore traditional Catholics tend not to give them much credit. If a Catholic scholar denies what the Catholic Church has Dogmatically or Infallibly defined, they are anathema. Further, your argument is a Red Herring, and is distracting to what the Church has taught on this issue. The Church is guided by a far more authoritarian source then a mere “consensus of scholars” (which has yet to be proven on your part), so why argue this point? This fallacy has availed you nothing, in your attempt to criticize the Catholic Church; we know there are wolves amongst the flock.

Well said.

 

[Radical]

The traditional Catholic view is the same that the Mother Church has espoused.

This is open to debate. You recognize the Magisterium as the authority on the matter of what the mother Church has espoused, but if one doesn’t recognize that authority and one doesn’t interpret previous teachings through that lens, then one can come to the conclusion that the traditional Catholic view is not the view that the Mother Church has espoused…and, in fact, one can come to the conclusion that the CC is not the Mother Church.

Dissident Catholic scholar’s are not describing the teachings of the Church as taught by the Magisterium,…

I guess that would be why they are called “dissidents” by those that submit to the Magisterium (in all matters)…The thing is though, if these so-called “dissidents” are in the majority, who then, are the real dissidents? …in scholarly circles? …in the group that identify themselves as Catholic?

If a Catholic scholar denies what the Catholic Church has Dogmatically or Infallibly defined, they are anathema.

…and if the hierarchy of the CC aren’t the definers of the one true Church, then the anathema means nothing.

Further, your argument is a Red Herring,…

actually the OP seems to be a challenge to non-Catholics. My opinion, therefore, is what has been requested…yours not so much.

The Church is guided by a far more authoritarian source then a mere “consensus of scholars” (which has yet to be proven on your part),…

well, I have quoted a reputed scholar WRT the “consensus of scholars”…until your side offers anything more than the copying and pasting of snippets, I really don’t think that I have a need to produce more. In any event, the thread challenges non-Catholics to specify who founded the CC…my answer is Mr. Innovation, Mrs. Development and Father Time. I have specified why, and have seen nothing to cause me to begin to reconsider my answer. So, question asked, question answered, feel free to reject said answer.

This fallacy has availed you nothing, in your attempt to criticize the Catholic Church; we know there are wolves amongst the flock.

So is it your position that all Protestants (who don’t recognize the CC as the one true Church…which seems to be the lot of us) are wolves amongst the flock? …and not part of the flock? …sounds kinda anti-Vatican II to me…but I am loath to throw out that “anti” label at the drop of a hat. Please clarify.

 

[adrift]

well, I have quoted a reputed scholar WRT the “consensus of scholars”…until your side offers anything more than the copying and pasting of snippets, I really don’t think that I have a need to produce more. In any event, the thread challenges non-Catholics to specify who founded the CC…my answer is Mr. Innovation, Mrs. Development and Father Time. I have specified why, and have seen nothing to cause me to begin to reconsider my answer. .

Yes you have quoted reputed scholar WRT the “consensus of scholars”. It is a long thread and I might have missed it but have you named the scholars? Your argument sounds very much like the fallacy of argument from authority.

Argument from authority (also known as appeal to authority) is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement is correct because the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative.

I spent an afternoon in the library checking out different opinions and I could not find your consensus. There were only three books that were from a non religious point of view and written within the last 25 years. They did not support the view point you have presented here. One of the books was the Oxford Illustrated History of Christiaity edited by John Mcmanners.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Radical,
If you are a baptized Christian, then you are a part of the flock. You are a protestant, so you are separated brethren from Catholics. So you’re a sheep that strays from the flock. Flocks have shepherds. I can’t say what I think about your wolf comment.