Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when...

[Prodigal_Son1]

well, for starters we aren’t agreed that there was any successor…but, in any event, what you see as legitimate growth, I see as man-made innovation…and it isn’t the only bit of man-made innovation, hence the need to label the founders of the CC as Mr. Inovation, Mrs. Development and Father Time

Very snide and condescending, in my honest opinion. It shows a real disdain for Catholicism.

You stand firm in your belief of, as you stated, almost a century of study and analysis. We stand firm in over 2000 years of tradition.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Why not just read the ECFs?

It appears there might be some reading, of those things a spin can be applied too.

 

[PRmerger]

Do you think that the first Roman Christians were primarily Jews?

Were the Romans mainly Jewish? I thought they were pagan.

It was those in the ancient near east who were Jewish–NOT the Romans, no?

 

[Radical]

According to whose standards? Yours?

logic

The office of the episcopacy evolved and developed over all time as ALL offices do over time. However,that in no shape or form negates the office. The roles of the first priests and bishops in the NT were more fluid,but nonetheless,both offices existed already.

the term “priest” is never used in the NT for any minister in the Church. It is used WRT to Christ and the Levites still serving in the temple…a priest, IMHO, is another innovation that was required once the Lord’s Supper hard been terribly distorted and the “office” of bishop had been created and exalted

You have empirical evidence Linus or no other never succeeded Peter as bishop?

empirical? that can’t be the right word choice…what do you mean?

What I find amazing is how opponents of the papacy always specualte or imply pure conjecture that NO ONE ever succeeded the 12 Apostles. I am curious to know what historical evidence such opponents have supporting such a charge or belief? When, where and WHO determined the role of the bishop was to cease, after the death of the last Apostle?

it seems that you are equating the role of apostle to the role of a bishop, making both roles to be offices and then declaring that the authority of the office could be passed on like a baton…how about some “empirical” evidence that such is all endorsed by God? If you really want to know about historical evidence, take a look at the books that I have referenced on this thread…but again, the OP asks for the name of the founder of the CC and b/c of all the innovation (some of which started rather early) I can’t answer other than Mr. Innovation, Mrs. Development and Father Time

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Didache instructs the congregation to appoint leaders for themselves.

Where in scriptures do we see instructions for the people to appoint leaders for themselves? Where do we see leaders appointing themselves? There was only appointments by men of the authoritative Church. You’re reading the Didache with a biased eye.

 

[PRmerger]

an apostle: a) was sent out to preach the gospel, b) a witness to the resurrection

Was Paul a witness to the resurrection? Or do you not believe he was an apostle?

and c) had his ministry confirmed by signs and wonders.

Do you have a Scriptural reference that an apostle had to have his ministry confirmed by signs and wonders?

An apostle provided pastoral care to a church (a temporary reality) and then moved on (thereafter providing pastoral care infrequently by letter, if at all).

Do you have a Scriptural reference that an apostle had to provide “pastoral care infrequently by letter, if at all”. (Incidentally, if he did not provide it by letter, how did he provide pastoral care to the communities he left?

 

[Radical]

Does your Church have the One Flesh Union in the Eucharist, Radical?

My church has the Lord’s supper as the Lord meant it to be, thanks for asking

Why not just read the ECFs?

been there done that…but I am not so arrogant as to assume that I can’t learn from those who are better informed, better trained and more capable than myself

 

[Radical]

Very snide and condescending, in my honest opinion. It shows a real disdain for Catholicism.

it seems that you are trying to be offended…I am answering questions, if you don’t like an opposing opinion read something else

You stand firm in your belief of, as you stated, almost a century of study and analysis. We stand firm in over 2000 years of tradition.

that is not what I said…I compared 1900 years of understanding to 2000 years of understanding…kindly stop distorting what I say

 

[Radical]

Were the Romans mainly Jewish? I thought they were pagan.

It was those in the ancient near east who were Jewish–NOT the Romans, no?

the question was about the “first Roman Christians”, please raise the level of discussion here

 

[Radical]

Where in scriptures do we see instructions for the people to appoint leaders for themselves? Where do we see leaders appointing themselves? There was only appointments by men of the authoritative Church. You’re reading the Didache with a biased eye.

here’s chapter 15 from the Didache:

Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord.

care to explain the alleged bias?

 

[PRmerger]

My church has the Lord’s supper as the Lord meant it to be, thanks for asking

You’re welcome, I think? Or was that meant to be condescending and snide? If it’s the latter then may God forgive you as you talk in such a way to your brothers and sisters in Christ.

As for the Lord’s supper, does Scripture give you guidance as to how it was meant to be? Does it say to celebrate it on Sundays? Does it say who leads the ritual? Does it say what words you must recite? Does it say what one wears? Does it say to do this in a church or in someone’s home?

If not (and I think the answer is negative to all of the above) then I think you are over-estimating the power of your pastor to interpret Scripture infallibly.

been there done that…but I am not so arrogant as to assume that I can’t learn from those who are better informed, better trained and more capable than myself

Of course. That sounds exactly like what the Magisterium offers, no?

 

[PRmerger]

the question was about the “first Roman Christians”, please raise the level of discussion here

Right. The first Roman Christians were Jews? Is that what you are saying?

I really don’t know the answer to this, Radical. I’m just offering my guess that they weren’t Jews, but pagans who converted to Christianity.

If you’re asserting that Romans were mainly Jewish, could you please provide your source?

 

[Irish_Polock]

You stand firm in your belief of, as you stated, almost a century of study and analysis. We stand firm in over 2000 years of tradition.

 

[Radical]

Was Paul a witness to the resurrection? Or do you not believe he was an apostle?

the resurrected Lord appeared to the apostle Paul, right?

Do you have a Scriptural reference that an apostle had to have his ministry confirmed by signs and wonders?

In 2 Cor 12: 12 Paul calls signs, wonders and miracles the things that mark of an apostle, right?

Do you have a Scriptural reference that an apostle had to provide “pastoral care infrequently by letter, if at all”.

never said that they “had to”. “if at all” allows for the possibility that they didn’t, right?

 

[PRmerger]

the resurrected Lord appeared to the apostle Paul, right?

Well, then, all those that the resurrected Lord appeared to were also apostles? Like Mary Magdalene?

 

[Nicea325]

here’s chapter 15 from the Didache:

Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord.

care to explain the alleged bias?

Not biased,but distorted on your behalf. You failed to add:

CHAPTER 15 : communal hierarchy & method of reproof

15:1 Therefore, appoint for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, meek men, disinterested in money, truthful and approved, for they too will fulfill among you the services of prophets and teachers.
15:2 Do not despise them, for they are your honourable men, together with the prophets and the teachers.
15:3 Do not reprove one another in wrath but in peace, as set forth in the Gospel. Let nobody speak with anyone who has wronged his neighbour, nor let him be heard, until he repents.
15:4 Perform your prayers, alms and all your deeds as found in the Gospel of our Lord.

You interpret, ‘yourselves’ as the laity? In the Didache the verb “cheirotonein” (cf. imposition of hands) is used to define the ordination of bishops & deacons. Only a bishop can ordain a priest and deacon.

 

[Radical]

You’re welcome, I think? Or was that meant to be condescending and snide?

to be honest I rather thought your question was of the “condescending and snide” variety…wasn’t it a bit of “have you got the truth that we have?”…it sure seemed that way…but you and Prodigal seem to want to label anything that isn’t supportive of your view as “condescending” …w/o seeing how condescending you may be…just saying

As for the Lord’s supper, does Scripture give you guidance as to how it was meant to be? Does it say to celebrate it on Sundays?

I don’t think observing it on Sundays is particularly important

Does it say who leads the ritual?

I don’t believe that a particular "officer " is required, which is consistent with scriptures not laying out that requirement

Does it say what words you must recite?

we use the words that our Lord used just before he instructs it to be done 'in remembrance of him"…

Does it say what one wears? Does it say to do this in a church or in someone’s home?

why would it…neither is important

If not (and I think the answer is negative to all of the above) then I think you are over-estimating the power of your pastor to interpret Scripture infallibly.

I guess that’s fair…as I think that you are over-estimating the power of your Magisterium to interpret Scripture infallibly.

Of course. That sounds exactly like what the Magisterium offers, no?

right, they are are better informed, better trained and more capable than myself…and they possess a very strong bias and are far from being the only bunch that are better informed, better trained and more capable than myself…so I can’t simply accept what they proclaim.

 

[Radical]

Well, then, all those that the resurrected Lord appeared to were also apostles? Like Mary Magdalene?

I didn’t say that either…just like all those who did miracles weren’t necessarily apostles…try harder not to distort what I say.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
If not (and I think the answer is negative to all of the above) then I think you are over-estimating the power of your pastor to interpret Scripture infallibly.

I guess that’s fair…as I think that you are over-estimating the power of your Magisterium to interpret Scripture infallibly.

According to you,but not Jesus. Explain why Jesus would found His Church and not have it guided by the Holy Spirit? No where does Jesus teach everyone will be infallible when interpretating scripture…NO WHERE! That is a non-Catholic novelty never taught in the early church or by the Apostles. BTW: If I am correct, when Jesus promised to send the HS,he spoke to the 12,not the masses.

 

[PRmerger]

to be honest I rather thought your question was of the “condescending and snide” variety…

Fair enough.

I don’t think observing it on Sundays is particularly important

This speaks volumes. You cannot claim that your “church has the Lord’s supper as the Lord meant it to be” for you have no idea if Sundays are important or not. That is your man-made, non-Scriptural tradition.

I don’t believe that a particular "officer " is required, which is consistent with scriptures not laying out that requirement.

Scriptures actually don’t lay out* any* requirement except that you have *anamnesis. * Anything you do is your man-made, non-Scriptural tradition.

we use the words that our Lord used just before he instructs it to be done 'in remembrance of him"…

And then do you add a whole bunch more stuff?

Do you play music during this ritual?

why would it…neither is important

Scripture actually doesn’t say, does it? So this is another man-made, non-Scriptural tradition you’ve added to the ceremony.

right, they are are better informed, better trained and more capable than myself…and they possess a very strong bias and are far from being the only bunch that are better informed, better trained and more capable than myself…so I can’t simply accept what they proclaim.

You reflect your bias there. A fair-minded person would say, “So I would consider what this better informed, better trained and more capable than myself Magisterium has to say”

But the fact that you say “I can’t simply accept what they proclaim” belies your inability to consider the truth, for the mere fact that it’s Catholic.