Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when...

[Radical]

I just hope you don’t object to man-made, non-Scriptural traditions, then, 'kay?

I realize that such will be your opinion WRT protestant practices…the Catholics on this thread could not have been more clear in stressing that is what they think.

For your music-playing (I assumed correctly, yes?)

not always

Sunday-only, in-a-church ritual…

not close to always

…of the Lord’s Supper is man-made, added-to, with extra-biblical traditions.

we have no tradition that requires music to be played (or not to be), or that it is to be on Sunday or that it must occur in a church setting… I think you have got the wrong idea. You seem to be focusing on what we understand as form…and we tend to focus on substance and allow flexibility WRT form…

(Not to mention I’m certain you don’t do it as the Bible did, 'cause you don’t recline at the table, yes? And you don’t eat lamb, right?)

have done both of those, but w/o any regularity (though the reclining wasn’t at a table…first century style tables aren’t easy to come by)

Oh, and that does bring me to another question: do you only have men participate in the Lord’s Supper, for that’s how the Bible did it, yes?

that is not the way I would read 1 Corinthians

Fair enough. I hope you do consider what the Magisterium says and ponder and, if need be, reject it on its own merits.

sounds like a good approach to me

 

[PRmerger]

I realize that such will be your opinion WRT protestant practices…the Catholics on this thread could not have been more clear in stressing that is what they think.

Well, to be fair to us Catholics, you have provided us with a very clear example of a man-made, extra-biblical ritual you perform.

To wit: using music (even sometimes) during the Lord’s Supper. Not in the bible. And you don’t recline at table, eat lamb and have only 12 men and 1 high priest when you perform this ritual.

Thus, you would do well not to object to Catholic practices which are not in the bible.

 

[Radical]

Indeed, she was.

did you really think that this constitutes being sent?..it is “sent to preach the gospel”…I thought such was obvious…and even then, she still would need those signs and wonders…and that also should be obvious

Yes, but Radical? These are all arbitrary. I could very well list different criteria for what constitutes an apostle.

Maybe I would say that an apostle is one
-who lays down his life for a friend
-who proclaims that God is love
-who has had an angel appear to him
-who wears a beard
-whose wife bore only sons
-whose prophesies have borne true.

Any number of arbitrary criteria could be asserted

none of those are: a) a criterion used by the 12 to replace Judas, b) declared to be a mark of an apostle by Paul, c) reflected in the term “apostle”. I would say your suggested list is arbitrary, whereas mine is made by reference to what the authors of the NT said about the matter

Well, to be fair to us Catholics, you have provided us with a very clear example of a man-made, extra-biblical ritual you perform.

yeah, I have plenty of them…even have a tooth-brushing ritual (left side first)…I don’t claim any are mandatory for all Christians or divinely inspired

Thus, you would do well not to object to Catholic practices which are not in the bible

perhaps Catholics would do well not to claim that their practices are mandatory for all Christians and are divinely inspired…start doing that and then see if I still object

 

[PRmerger]

did you really think that this constitutes being sent?..

Yes. Go and talk about the Resurrection pretty much constitutes “being sent”.

At any rate, this is a great example of why Scripture alone cannot be our sole authority. For even on this one point there is no one who can say, “Yes, Mary Magdalene’s being told to go and speak of the Resurrection indeed means she is an apostle.” It’s simply your word against mine.

I thought such was obvious…

What you think is clearly irrelevant when it comes to a final interpreter of Scripture, no?

For all I have to do is say, “I thought was obvious” and then where to?

and even then, she still would need those signs and wonders…and that also should be obvious

Why? Who decided that?

none of those are: a) a criterion used by the 12 to replace Judas,

By casting lots?

b) declared to be a mark of an apostle by Paul, c) reflected in the term “apostle”. I would say your suggested list is arbitrary, whereas mine is made by reference to what the authors of the NT said about the matter

I could find references to all my above criteria with Scripture, too.

yeah, I have plenty of them…even have a tooth-brushing ritual (left side first)…I don’t claim any are mandatory for all Christians or divinely inspired

Well, of course. That’s what a man-made tradition is. It’s contrasted with “divinely inspired” traditions.

I’m simply pointing out that you ought never criticize any church for having man-made traditions, for you have them too.

 

[PRmerger]

perhaps Catholics would do well not to claim that their practices are mandatory for all Christians and are divinely inspired…start doing that and then see if I still object

What practices does the CC proclaim are “mandatory for all Christians and divinely inspired” to which you object?

 

[Dokimas]

Where in scriptures do we see instructions for the people to appoint leaders for themselves? Where do we see leaders appointing themselves? There was only appointments by men of the authoritative Church. You’re reading the Didache with a biased eye.

Acts 6

1 ¶ And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

 

[Dokimas]

Well, then, all those that the resurrected Lord appeared to were also apostles? Like Mary Magdalene?

You’re either not understanding or distorting of what Rad said.

 

[Dokimas]

Perhaps not, but in this case, you embrace doctrines that were created by those who were, most deliberately, protesting. Though you may not have known this when you embraced them, now you know that you stand in a 500 year tradition of protesters.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[PRmerger]

did you really think that this constitutes being sent?..it is “sent to preach the gospel”…I thought such was obvious…and even then, she still would need those signs and wonders…and that also should be obvious

Radical, can you provide a chapter and verse for where Bartholomew performed “signs and wonders”?

And Jude?

And Matthias?

 

[Dokimas]

You are right buddy, Sometimes we have to call it a draw and let it go. Agree to disagree and drop it. In my book that does not make me the winner or you the winner we both are winners. Thanks Dokimas.

In Jesus we are winners. God bless you.

 

[Dokimas]

Radical, can you provide a chapter and verse for where Bartholomew performed “signs and wonders”?

And Jude?

And Matthias?

Matthew 10:

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

As for Jude and Matthias, I’m not sure they were chosen by God to be apostles.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Acts 6

1 ¶ And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

Thank you for proving my point Dokimas. Yes, the people put forth candidates however, the Apostles imposed hands upon those men and ordained them. This was not done without being under the authority of the men of the authoritative Church. The twelve called the multitude of ‘disciples’ unto them…they chose Stephen…Philip…Prochorus…Nicanor…Timon…Parmenas…and Nicolas…Whom they set before the Apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

Act 6:7 And the word of the Lord increased: and the number of the disciples was multiplied in Jerusalem exceedingly. A great multitude also of the priests obeyed the faith.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Matthew 10:

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

As for Jude and Matthias, I’m not sure they were chosen by God to be apostles.

This shows where they were commanded, but does not show where who actually performed signs and wonders, or should we take it that they all performed signs and wonders, including Judas?

Do we remove the book of Jude from the New Testament? What example is the inspired word of God showing us with Matthias’ appointment, in your opinion?

To exclude Matthias’ appointment seems to be a process of selective interpretation of scriptures, in my honest opinion.

 

[Dokimas]

This shows where they were commanded, but does not show where who actually performed signs and wonders, or should we take it that they all performed signs and wonders, including Judas?

Do we remove the book of Jude from the New Testament? What example is the inspired word of God showing us with Matthias’ appointment, in your opinion?

To exclude Matthias’ appointment seems to be a process of selective interpretation of scriptures, in my honest opinion.

God gives gifts to whom He will.

Why remove Jude? Nowhere does it say that only apostles can write for the Bible. Luke was not an apostle to my knowledge. BTW, isn’t Jude short for Judas? Could this Letter have been penned by the other Judas?

The inspired Word of God tells what actually happened. Not everything in the Word of God is God’s will (David and Bathsheba, Adam and Eve’s sin, etc.). BTW, I’m NOT saying what the disciples did was sin. I’m just showing that things happen and are recorded that aren’t in God’s plan. IMO, Paul was God’s choice whom HE chose just as He chose the first 12, without lots.

 

[Dokimas]

Thank you for proving my point Dokimas. Yes, the people put forth candidates however, the Apostles imposed hands upon those men and ordained them. This was not done without being under the authority of the men of the authoritative Church. The twelve called the multitude of ‘disciples’ unto them…they chose Stephen…Philip…Prochorus…Nicanor…Timon…Parmenas…and Nicolas…Whom they set before the Apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

I guess technically you are correct. However, it was the people that chose the seven. Are the average CC church goer able to chose who the CC ordain?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I guess technically you are correct. However, it was the people that chose the seven. Are the average CC church goer able to chose who the CC ordain?

People continue to support the ordination of clergy in the Church in many ways, even though the supporters do not always personally know each candidate. This support is the same as ‘choosing’, as given in the example in scriptures.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

God gives gifts to whom He will.

Why remove Jude? Nowhere does it say that only apostles can write for the Bible. Luke was not an apostle to my knowledge. BTW, isn’t Jude short for Judas? Could this Letter have been penned by the other Judas?

The inspired Word of God tells what actually happened. Not everything in the Word of God is God’s will (David and Bathsheba, Adam and Eve’s sin, etc.). BTW, I’m NOT saying what the disciples did was sin. I’m just showing that things happen and are recorded that aren’t in God’s plan. IMO, Paul was God’s choice whom HE chose just as He chose the first 12, without lots.

Jude, the brother of James?

Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James: to them that are beloved in God the Father and preserved in Jesus Christ and called.

This was not penned by Judas Iscariot.

They replaced Judas’ office as per the prophecy, as told in scriptures. Jesus told them He would be with them until the consummation of the world and that the Holy Spirit would make all things known to them. I believe, as the Apostles believed, that God had the power to choose between their two candidates through the casting of lots. Even if one wants to dispute whether God chose Matthias through the casting of lots or not, He became an Apostle, recognized by all the authoritative men of the authoritative Church, including Paul. Apostolic succession was underway…

**

1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.

**

 

[guanophore]

Right. The first Roman Christians were Jews? Is that what you are saying?

I really don’t know the answer to this, Radical. I’m just offering my guess that they weren’t Jews, but pagans who converted to Christianity.

If you’re asserting that Romans were mainly Jewish, could you please provide your source?

It was probably a mixed community. No doubt some Paul’s converts ended up in Rome before he did. There is an awfully long list of personal greetings at the end of his letter. The seed of the Roman Church was planted in Jerusalem at Pentecost.

Acts 2:5-11

5 Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven living in Jerusalem. …and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

They probably travelled together from Rome for the festival, and returned together after Pentecost. Could you imagine the number of prayer meetings on that trip?

 

[guanophore]

 I think that  you are over-estimating the power of your Magisterium to interpret Scripture infallibly.

How can one over estimate the power of God?

Only God can cause a human being to act infallibly.

That is like saying “I think you are over estimating the power of the authors of the New Testament to write the Scripture infallibly”.

Clearly it is is God who is the primary writer, just as He is the interpreter. He works through people to accomplish these things.

 

[guanophore]

I just hope you don’t object to man-made, non-Scriptural traditions, then, 'kay? For your music-playing (I assumed correctly, yes?) Sunday-only, in-a-church ritual of the Lord’s Supper is man-made, added-to, with extra-biblical traditions. (Not to mention I’m certain you don’t do it as the Bible did, 'cause you don’t recline at the table, yes? And you don’t eat lamb, right?)

I don’t think this is entirely accurate, PR. Clearly the words of the consecration are found in Scripture, so that part of the ceremony is not “man-made”. Most of our separated brethren that retain these practices have actually unwittingly accepted Catholic Sacred Tradition. The Sunday observance (which many don’t ever question) comes from Catholic Sacred Tradition, not “man-made tradition”. The music playing comes from the Passover, during which liturgical hymns were sung. This also comes to our separated brethren through Catholic Sacred Tradition.

Although there have been some departures from the Apostolic faith, these traces are clearly remnants of the Apostolic beliefs and practices that have not yet been lost.