Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when...

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Radical, so the apostles of the Lord, who are priests still bound by the law of the Sabbath, serve God and the altar continually in the temple in Jerusalem. Okay…:confused:

I still don’t know what you are talking about regarding the following question, but no big deal:

Also, why would Polycrate claim that John was a priest under the old covenant?
 
that’s okay

Have you read Romans 9:6 where it states that not all who are descended from from Israel are Israel? There is the physical (visible) and the spiritual (invisible)…and these are terms that you can find in your bible.
So there is the physical church which is visible and the spiritual church which is invisible church? Okay…:confused:
 


I know you think it’s bogus but perhaps you could still answer it. After all that is the point of this thread.
well, there could be a lot of candidates to consider, but I guess we could start by identifying who didn’t found the CC. I suppose that you would agree that no one person after 100 AD founded the CC. From before 100 AD we can eliminate Jesus and all the apostles as founders of the Catholic Church b/c what they started was considerably different…so you tell me, what are the choices that I have left? Did you have someone in mind from say the 70’s?
 
well, there could be a lot of candidates to consider, but I guess we could start by identifying who didn’t found the CC. I suppose that you would agree that no one person after 100 AD founded the CC. From before 100 AD we can eliminate Jesus and all the apostles as founders of the Catholic Church b/c what they started was considerably different…so you tell me, what are the choices that I have left? Did you have someone in mind from say the 70’s?
What happened to the Church that Jesus founded. From your statement it sounds as if the Apostles established a Church where is it?
 
Hey Radical…
well, there could be a lot of candidates to consider…
Such as…?
…I suppose that you would agree that no one person after 100 AD founded the CC.
That seems logical and historically accurate. I would also suggest that no one person prior to 100 AD founded the CC, other than Jesus. Perhaps you could suggest someone other than Jesus or the apostles?
…From before 100 AD we can eliminate Jesus and all the apostles as founders of the Catholic Church b/c what they started was considerably different…
Well, speaking as a former non-Catholic, we will no doubt have to agree to disagree on that notion, but let’s assume you are right and the Catholic church, prior to 100 AD, was not the church founded by Jesus, but rather some obscure figure, and therefore is eliminated. Historically speaking, could you please identify the church founded by Jesus, that existed prior to 100 AD, alongside the supposed man-made Catholic church? That would be helpful. I had no luck as a former non-Catholic.
so you tell me, what are the choices that I have left? Did you have someone in mind from say the 70’s?
Well, Jesus Christ was the only name I could come up with, as a former non-Catholic. Other than the EOC I can think of no other church that can trace it’s origin all the way back to Pentecost. I am however open to suggestions. 👍
 
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joe370:
I suppose a metaphore is in order: The Catholic Church is one branch in a tree, one of many. The tree is planted by Jesus Christ. All true branches are founded by the same person, Jesus. Each branch is the “true church” only in it’s relationship to the tree, Jesus.

That is why I can say if the Catholic Church belongs to the Universal Church (as i believe it does) then it is founded by Jesus Christ, just as my church is. is that specific enough? I can say that and still believe that in many ways it is flawed, just as my church is, just as I am.

This is why I say your question is moot from a Protestant perspective. You imply significance to the founder outside of Jesus Christ.

I believe Christ wants us to be a follower of Him, not of a Church. (Unfortunately, the Catholuc Church requires that we be a follower of Her, have faith in Her, believe in Her, rather than in Christ which is why I am not a member today.)
 
Radical,

No Christ never said, “my body will mystically change into bread” But he did
  1. Call him self the bread of life
  2. He Paralleled this bread to the manna in the desert, but said you will not die like the Israelites but have everlasting life. The manna in the desert was food for their journey to the promised land, it tasted like wafers made of honey, a foretaste of the “land of milk and honey”. The Eucharist is a wafer that is food for our journey, not a physical journey out of Egypt but a spiritual journey. When Christ stepped into the river it didn’t part like it did for Moses, but the clouds parted because the new exodus is a spiritual heavenly journey and not a physical journey. The eucharist is food for the new exodus
  3. He tells the people to eat this new bread after calling himself the bread of life, and then he tells them that his flesh is true food and his blood is true drink. He says “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life” after having already said “ if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever”


Eat Christ, then; though eaten He yet lives, for when slain He rose from the dead. Nor do we divide Him into parts when we eat Him: though indeed this is done in the Sacrament, as the faithful well know when they eat the Flesh of Christ, for each receives his part, hence are those parts called graces. Yet though thus eaten in parts He remains whole and entire; eaten in parts in the Sacrament, He remains whole and entire in Heaven. {Mai 129, 1; cf. Sermon 131; on p.65}

Here’s an interesting perspective from Augustine on the “hard teaching”
“The very first heresy was formulated when men said: “this saying is hard and who can bear it [Jn 6:60]?” {Enarr. 1, 23 on Ps. 54; on p.66}

As for cannibalism, one reason the early Christians in Rome were persecuted is because the Eucharist was seen as cannibalism by opponents of Christianity.
👍Thank you for this magnificent exposition. This is truth. This is reality. This is life. Thank you again.👍
 
freerf;7615824]I suppose a metaphore is in order: The Catholic Church is one branch in a tree, one of many. The tree is planted by Jesus Christ. All true branches are founded by the same person, Jesus. Each branch is the “true church” only in it’s relationship to the tree, Jesus.
I understand…
That is why I can say if the Catholic Church belongs to the Universal Church (as i believe it does) then it is founded by Jesus Christ, just as my church is. is that specific enough? I can say that and still believe that in many ways it is flawed, just as my church is, just as I am.
I understand…
This is why I say your question is moot from a Protestant perspective. You imply significance to the founder outside of Jesus Christ.
I understand why you believe my question is moot but my question is the point of this thread. 👍
I believe Christ wants us to be a follower of Him, not of a Church. (Unfortunately, the Catholuc Church requires that we be a follower of Her, have faith in Her, believe in Her, rather than in Christ which is why I am not a member today.)
Catholics too believe that Christ wants us to be a follower of Him, but Paul believes that this is done via the church forever guided into all truth by Jesus: *Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you. *

Freerf, I would really appreciate it if you are going to participate, to at least attempt to answer the following OP:

Please give me the name of the man, or men, (and yes, I know you believe it is moot) - that founded the Catholic Church, and when?

Thanks friend…👍
 
  • Protestantism had its beginning in the fifteen hundreds. Jesus Christ did not come down and start the reformation by “inspiring” Luther. *
I think you might find that the vast majority of our separated brethren are not in agreement with you on this point.
 
as I have explained before, I think that your question is bogus…It is akin to complaining that basketball can’t be a true game b/c we can provide the name of the person who invented it…and then boasting that golf is a true game b/c we can’t do the same. What you call the Catholic Church is the product of innovation and development over a considerable period of time…it contains a number of errors that have been introduced by that inovation and development and as such, it is not appropriate to identify the modern CC with the original Church. What we call the Lutheran Church (for example), is something that was started for the purpose of eliminating some of those errors. If it succeeded in that purpose (w/o replcaing the eliminated error with other error) then it would be a more legitimate representative of the original Church than the CC. (though I must say that the CC has “cleaned up its act” considerably form 1517)
*Radical!

I will then ask: I guess that according to you the Holy Spirit erred and Luther had to protest and found Protestantism.

You will answer: The Catholic Church is not the Church Jesus founded.

Then I will ask: What is the Church Jesus founded?

You will answer: The Christian Church

and I will ask: What might that be?

you will answer: All the Christian Churches

I will then say: But that makes no sense and makes you a relativist because Jesus would not found 30,000 plus Christian churches all expounding different truths!

and you will say: :yup::sad_yes:

and I will then ask: OK then please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when…

and you will say: “There’s a hole in my bucket, :whistle: my bucket, :whistle::harp: my bucket…there’s a hole in my bucket…my bucket, a hole”

and I will respond: You are absolutely correct! :clapping::banghead:*
 
Code:
I suppose a metaphore is in order:  The Catholic Church is one branch in a tree, one of many.  The tree is planted by Jesus Christ.  All true branches are founded by the same person, Jesus.  Each branch is the "true church" only in it's relationship to the tree, Jesus.
I think your metaphore has merit. However, as the branches diverge more and more, the resulting communities are further and further from the teachings of the Founder.
Code:
This is why I say your question is moot from a Protestant perspective. You imply significance to the founder outside of Jesus Christ.
Yes, becuase we believe that Jesus only founded One Church.
Code:
 I believe Christ wants us to be a follower of Him, not of a Church.  (Unfortunately, the Catholuc Church requires that we be a follower of Her, have faith in Her, believe in Her, rather than in Christ which is why I am not a member today.)
You are creating a false dichotomy. The Church is the Bride of Christ. There is no separation or opposition between the Lord and His Bride. When we are following HIm, we are in unity with His Holy Bride, the Church.

There is no “rather than”.

The Church is His Body, through which He conforms us to Himself.

Such a deficient understanding of the nature of the Church is one of the chief reasons for the disunty in the Body.
 
*Radical!

A question I meant to ask you!

You list yourself as “Protestant” - against what or whom are you protesting?

Thank you
Cinette:)*
 
Radical, what alter is he talking about:

"For David had been appointed a priest by God, although Saul persecuted him. For all the righteous possess the sacerdotal rank. And all the apostles of the Lord are priests, who do inherit here neither lands nor houses, but serve God and the altar continually."
What Bible verse was this taken from?
 
*Radical!

A question I meant to ask you!

You list yourself as “Protestant” - against what or whom are you protesting?

Thank you
Cinette:)*
Cinette, you view yourself as catholic. Are you universal?
 
Hi, Joe370,

Looks like another opportunity squandered. I was wondering why anyone would stay on a thread that is ‘bogus’…:rolleyes:

As previous posters have identified, all of the religions of today can be traced back to a human founder - even ancient heresies can be identified by their founder. Now, in 1891 Dr. James Naismith is credited with the invention of basketball. While golf is older and its origins a bit more obscure we can do some tracing - “Some historians believe that Kolven from Holland and Chole from Belgium influenced the game. The latter was introduced into Scotland in 1421”. But, let’s take a look at classic evasion…
as I have explained before, I think that your question is bogus…It is akin to complaining that basketball can’t be a true game b/c we can provide the name of the person who invented it…and then boasting that golf is a true game b/c we can’t do the same.
Even this does not hold water as just doing a Google search reveals origins and founders. The real challenge here with golf (a man-made tradition if ever there was one…) was the invention of the hole in which the game ball is to go in. We see a real history of development from a group sport to more of an individual activity played in a group. What is important is that historic answers are available… you are willing to look and report the findings.
What you call the Catholic Church is the product of innovation and development over a considerable period of time…
There had to be something to innovate - so what was the origin - and Who was the Originator?

Even golf proudly list those who provided innovation to the game - basketball (which actually had a fruitbasket for a goal (without a hole in the bottom) was the subject of innovation. So, who were the innovators and what were the developments?

In John 16:12 we have Christ telling us that He had more to tell us but we could not bear it now. He set the stage for how He wanted His Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) to develop under the influence and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
…it contains a number of errors that have been introduced by that inovation and development and as such, it is not appropriate to identify the modern CC with the original Church.
Please list this errors… and who was it that determined them to be error and when did this happen?
What we call the Lutheran Church (for example), is something that was started for the purpose of eliminating some of those errors. If it succeeded in that purpose (w/o replcaing the eliminated error with other error) then it would be a more legitimate representative of the original Church than the CC. (though I must say that the CC has “cleaned up its act” considerably form 1517)
Not even close. If Christ appeared to Luther and told him that the promises made to the Catholic Church were being taken back - Luther never reported this vision - and, it certainly is not in Scripture. In fact, just the opposite! Romans 11:29 tells us that God does not take back His Gifts!

Truly, to get a straight answer is not to be taken for granted.

Glad you didn’t hold your breath Joe370! 😃

God bless
 
as I have explained before, I think that your question is bogus…It is akin to complaining that basketball can’t be a true game b/c we can provide the name of the person who invented it…and then boasting that golf is a true game b/c we can’t do the same. What you call the Catholic Church is the product of innovation and development over a considerable period of time…it contains a number of errors that have been introduced by that inovation and development and as such, it is not appropriate to identify the modern CC with the original Church. What we call the Lutheran Church (for example), is something that was started for the purpose of eliminating some of those errors. If it succeeded in that purpose (w/o replcaing the eliminated error with other error) then it would be a more legitimate representative of the original Church than the CC. (though I must say that the CC has “cleaned up its act” considerably form 1517)
**That is a bogus answer, an evasion. We are not discussing sports here, we are discussing something much more serious. Then please show us where in the Bible, Apostles, ECF’s it is said or taught that any man has the authority to start his own church if he does not agree with Christ’s original church’s teachings.

I predict an evasion, or a non-answer or probably no answer at all.**
 
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