Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when...

[joe370]

What Bible verse was this taken from?

Looks like you were not following our dialogue, but it is irrelevant to the OP as per the moderator, so I ask:

Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when?

Thanks Dok…

 

[freerf]

joe370:
I suppose a metaphore is in order: The Catholic Church is one branch in a tree, one of many. The tree is planted by Jesus Christ. All true branches are founded by the same person, Jesus. Each branch is the “true church” only in it’s relationship to the tree, Jesus.

That is why I can say if the Catholic Church belongs to the Universal Church (as i believe it does) then it is founded by Jesus Christ, just as my church is. is that specific enough? I can say that and still believe that in many ways it is flawed, just as my church is, just as I am.

This is why I say your question is moot from a Protestant perspective. You imply significance to the founder outside of Jesus Christ.

I believe Christ wants us to be a follower of Him, not of a Church. (Unfortunately, it seems to me that the Catholic Church requires that we be a follower of Her, have faith in Her, believe in Her, in addition to a belief in Christ, which is why I am not a member today.)

**

 

[joe370]

Freerf, I did respond to this post already but you have yet to respond to the OP, unless I overlooked it, which is:

Please give me the name of the man, or men, (if not the God - Man Jesus Christ) - that founded the Catholic Church, and when?

I suppose a metaphore is in order: The Catholic Church is one branch in a tree, one of many. The tree is planted by Jesus Christ. All true branches are founded by the same person, Jesus. Each branch is the “true church” only in it’s relationship to the tree, Jesus.

That is why I can say if the Catholic Church belongs to the Universal Church (as i believe it does) then it is founded by Jesus Christ, just as my church is. is that specific enough? I can say that and still believe that in many ways it is flawed, just as my church is, just as I am.

This is why I say your question is moot from a Protestant perspective. You imply significance to the founder outside of Jesus Christ.

I believe Christ wants us to be a follower of Him, not of a Church. (Unfortunately, it seems to me that the Catholic Church requires that we be a follower of Her, have faith in Her, believe in Her, in addition to a belief in Christ, which is why I am not a member today.)

**

 

[joe370]

Hey Tom…

As previous posters have identified, all of the religions of today can be traced back to a human founder - even ancient heresies can be identified by their founder.

I, as a former non-Catholic, could only trace the EOC and the CC back to the Jesus via His apostles, and Jesus said, about just one church: you are kepha and on this kepha I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and that was the church I wanted to belong to, which is the key to the indissolubility of His church, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat.

Not even close. If Christ appeared to Luther and told him that the promises made to the Catholic Church were being taken back - Luther never reported this vision - and, it certainly is not in Scripture. In fact, just the opposite! Romans 11:29 tells us that God does not take back His Gifts!

Just the opposite is a fact for any sloa scriptura proponent to see!

 

[Dokimas]

Looks like you were not following our dialogue, but it is irrelevant to the OP as per the moderator, so I ask:

Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when?

Thanks Dok…

Many catholics, IMO, are truly Christian which means they are part of the church Jesus founded. Christians make up the church, not an organization.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Dokimas,

ALL Catholics are truly Christian by our Baptism.

Peace,
Phil

 

[joe370]

Many catholics, IMO, are truly Christian which means they are part of the church Jesus founded. Christians make up the church, not an organization.

I agree Dok, however, I do believe that each and every autonomous church is organized, but I digress. The moderator warned us to stay focused on the OP, so, could you please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, (if not Jesus Christ) - and when, just as we can with every protestant church?

Thanks Dok…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I suppose a metaphore is in order: The Catholic Church is one branch in a tree, one of many. The tree is planted by Jesus Christ. All true branches are founded by the same person, Jesus. Each branch is the “true church” only in it’s relationship to the tree, Jesus.

The Catholic Church was established 1500+ years prior to the other Churches, which branched from the Catholic Church. This makes the Catholic Church more than a ‘branch’ unless you can provide documentation of the other ‘branches’ existing since Christ established His Church. Other than that, I am satisfied with you stating Christ ‘founded’ the Catholic Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Many catholics, IMO, are truly Christian which means they are part of the church Jesus founded. Christians make up the church, not an organization.

Are you saying Christ founded the Catholic Church?

 

[Nicea325]

as I have explained before, I think that your question is bogus…

Why? Because that is how you feel? If the CC was NOT founded by Jesus,then there is nothing bogus about it,because you would easily identify its human founder.

It is akin to complaining that basketball can’t be a true game b/c we can provide the name of the person who invented it…and then boasting that golf is a true game b/c we can’t do the same.

Now this is a bogus comparison. All sports have a human origin,unless dogs and cats invented sports?

What you call the Catholic Church is the product of innovation and development over a considerable period of time

Are you listening to how you contradict yourself? These are your opening words:

as I have explained before, I think that your question is bogus

If the CC is a product of INNOVATION & DEVELOPMENT (all applicable to humans) then evidently someone or something founded it-right?

…it contains a number of errors that have been introduced by that inovation and development and as such

In other words, you are really saying: Due to errors by a production of innovation,it must have a human founder,because God cannot make errors. Name the human founder?

it is not appropriate to identify the modern CC with the original Church.

According to you! It is not appropriate to identify the U.S. with the 13 original colonies? History surely contradicts your approach and ideas.

What we call the Lutheran Church (for example), is something that was started for the purpose of eliminating some of those errors.

Absuses,not so much errors. And what has become of the so-called ‘purpose’ of elminating errors? Mass divisions and conflicting teachings (aka Protestanism,fundamentalism,etc)

If it succeeded in that purpose (w/o replcaing the eliminated error with other error) then it would be a more legitimate representative of the original Church than the CC.

Tell me which man-made church out of THOUSANDS is truly the representative of the original church,so I too can go join it. I hope you aware I am limited on time.

(though I must say that the CC has “cleaned up its act” considerably form 1517)

And I have yet to see it from many of the thousands of countless of Protestant churches.Ordination of openly gay couples?

 

[Radical]

Hey Radical…

I would also suggest that no one person prior to 100 AD founded the CC, other than Jesus. Perhaps you could suggest someone other than Jesus or the apostles?

not from the first century, no

Well, speaking as a former non-Catholic, we will no doubt have to agree to disagree on that notion, but let’s assume you are right and the Catholic church, prior to 100 AD,…

you misunderstand me…nothing like the modern CC existed in the first century. If you are really, really looking for the men who founded the CC, I’ll give you a start, but I expext the list will be quite long (if done properly and thoroughly), but here goes:

a) let’s give Ignatius a spot on the list for his effort in creating a monoepiscopacy

b) the author(s) of the Protoevangelium of James deserves a spot on the list for his/their efforts in popularizing the perpetual virginity of Mary (tis somewhat ironic that a couple of popes rejected the work).

c) Constantine gets a spot. Before he came along the Church was often a victim of the state and was separated from the state, but he made the Church an institutional partner of the state and that connection was a trademark of Catholicism for centuries.

d) the men of the 4th century Antiochene school get a spot for introducing the somatic real presence.

well that is it for starters…you know, I actually think that there is a book in this (something like Kung’s History of the Catholic church) and probably also a rather interesting thread…I just might go to some Protestant cite and pose your question, supply my 4 starters and see what shakes out of the tree. Would you want to see the result if I did?

 

[Nicea325]

a) let’s give Ignatius a spot on the list for his effort in creating a monoepiscopacy

I’ll put you on the spot, provide the primary and empirical evidence Igantius created a monoepiscopacy?

c

) Constantine gets a spot. Before he came along the Church was often a victim of the state and was separated from the state, but he made the Church an institutional partner of the state and that connection was a trademark of Catholicism for centuries.

LOL! What year did Constantine issue the Edict of Milan? 313 A.D. When did the Western Roman Empire go under: approx. 476 A.D. How do you get centuries for the trademark? Time to read actual history Radical and less of your one track-bigoted scholars.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Freerf,

This took a bit longer than I anticipated … brevity is still the soul of wit! Page 1 of 2

I really do not see how your response is addressing the OP’s question. Besides, the idea of a metaphor is to provide an explanation of one thing by using another thing - usually more tangible - to provide an example. While the metaphor of a tree can be valid in addressing teh question of the Man that founded the Catholic Church - and, that would be Jesus Christ, it appears that you had some problems in this area. Maybe I can help…

I suppose a metaphore is in order: The Catholic Church is one branch in a tree, one of many.

The basic error here is one of logic. One can not start out by asserting the point they are about to prove and then go on from there. If you are going to use a tree metaphore, then you must take it back to the seed or root or trunk - FROM WHICH all branches stem. In so doing, you will need to name the main body (seed, root or trunk) and give a time frame along with a verifiable reference. Let me give you an example: Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church on Peter in about 33AD (Matt 16:18). Now, it is your turn.

The tree is planted by Jesus Christ. All true branches are founded by the same person, Jesus. Each branch is the “true church” only in it’s relationship to the tree, Jesus.

Again, same problem as before: you must prove this point - it is NOT a given. You will need to supply some kind of evidence for the “each branch is the ‘true church’” hypothesis and that would - from the context of your sentence - mean Christ established more than one church … or, multiple branches to continue with your metaphore.

But, we still need to stay within the context of the OP’s question - and this means the origin(s) must be named for these multiple branches. In my opinion, up to this point, it appears to me that the responses have been evasive.

That is why I can say if the Catholic Church belongs to the Universal Church (as i believe it does) then it is founded by Jesus Christ, just as my church is. is that specific enough?

What is your evidence for a ‘Universay Church’ - especially if it is separated from the One founded by Jesus Christ on Peter? Truly, merely making statements that appear as fact does not make them a fact. In addition to Matt 16:18 and other Scriptural references about Peter being the one selected by Christ to found His Church upon. Here are three well researched links you may find helpful. I would appreciate any link you can supply to suppport your position.

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9202vbv.asp

catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp

catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp

Simply stated a so-called ‘Universal Church’ where individual ‘branches’ contradict one another’s doctrines is a contradiction in terms. The idea behind such a church would be evident by consistency of doctrine. I submit that the only Church to have such a consistency has the Bishop of Rome as its head.

Continued…

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Freerf,

Page 2 of 2

… then it is founded by Jesus Christ, just as my church is. is that specific enough?

Actually, no it isn’t. The basic premis you have presented is that Christ founded all of these branch churches. And, since Christ did this - they are all ‘true’.

This appears to be just wishful thinking. What do you use to support these statements? I have given you multiple references, both Scriptural and ECF to support that Christ founded the Catholic Church. Christ did not plant a seed that remained asleep for 1,517 years and then suddenly emerge as Protestantism. Christ planted His seed, Peter, and from Peter - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, we have the development of the Catholic Church. What group do you think was being persecuted by the Roman Empire for the first 300 years of its existence? It wasn’t any of these branches you claim were there.

Simply stated, if you are going to dispute the ‘Chain of Custody’ from Peter to Benedict XVI you will have to prove were it broke - and you will need more than merely saying this is what you believe happened. Continuing on with that thought - if you think you have the answer to that, then you will need to tie Christ into the Protestant revolution that begain in 1517. And, yes, there will need to be documentation for that, too.

This is why I say your question is moot from a Protestant perspective. You imply significance to the founder outside of Jesus Christ.

There are several errors here: there is no ‘Protestant perspective’ - the OP has asked a historical question and it requires a historical answer. Implying that one’s bias is sufficient to address the matter is simply not true.

The Founder IS Jesus Christ - and this comes from Matt 16:18. Note, there were not 11 other sets of Keys that Christ was handing out that day. Peter is in charge and was selected by God the Father for this role - and Christ announced to all that God had given Peter the correct answer to Christ’s question. This can not be ignored

I believe Christ wants us to be a follower of Him, not of a Church. (Unfortunately, it seems to me that the Catholic Church requires that we be a follower of Her, have faith in Her, believe in Her, in addition to a belief in Christ

, which is why I am not a member today.)

Christ established the Catholic Church as His Bride (Eph 5:23-32). Here is a link that may be helpful: catholic.com/library/pillar.asp I would request that you prayerfully read the links I have provided - you may want to become a member today.

**

Use that as a ‘lesson learned’ and move on.

God bless

 

[joe370]

Hey Radical, I really appreciate you responding to the OP; very few people do, but, I see no evidence for your claims:

Ignatius of Antioch was among the apostolic fathers and was the third Bishop of Antioch in the east circa AD 100, and could not have been the founder of the CC in in the west; he belonged to the same CC that Augustine belonged to, to which I belong: *“Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.” — Letter to the Smyrnaeans *

Perhaps you could provide some evidence regarding the author(s) of the apocryphal Gospel of James being the founders of the CC?

The CC in communion with Rome was well established before Constantine came on to the scene; I ruled him out almost immediately as a former non-catholic.

Please provide the names of the men of the 4th century Antiochene school that founded the CC in communion with Rome, which existed long before the 4th century?

Thanks again for responding to the OP, which is me! It’s a lot more interesting when we all stick to the OP.

not from the first century, no

you misunderstand me…nothing like the modern CC existed in the first century. If you are really, really looking for the men who founded the CC, I’ll give you a start, but I expext the list will be quite long (if done properly and thoroughly), but here goes:

a) let’s give Ignatius a spot on the list for his effort in creating a monoepiscopacy

b) the author(s) of the Protoevangelium of James deserves a spot on the list for his/their efforts in popularizing the perpetual virginity of Mary (tis somewhat ironic that a couple of popes rejected the work).

c) Constantine gets a spot. Before he came along the Church was often a victim of the state and was separated from the state, but he made the Church an institutional partner of the state and that connection was a trademark of Catholicism for centuries.

d) the men of the 4th century Antiochene school get a spot for introducing the somatic real presence.

well that is it for starters…you know, I actually think that there is a book in this (something like Kung’s History of the Catholic church) and probably also a rather interesting thread…I just might go to some Protestant cite and pose your question, supply my 4 starters and see what shakes out of the tree. Would you want to see the result if I did?

 

[Dokimas]

I agree Dok, however, I do believe that each and every autonomous church is organized, but I digress. The moderator warned us to stay focused on the OP, so, could you please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, (if not Jesus Christ) - and when, just as we can with every protestant church?

Thanks Dok…

Organizations aren’t part of the Body of Christ, people are.

I matters not who started individual churches. The key is the Gospel, is it preached and lived by the church members?

You’re welcome. God bless you.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Organizations aren’t part of the Body of Christ, people are.

I matters not who started individual churches. The key is the Gospel, is it preached and lived by the church members?

You’re welcome. God bless you.

Christians are an organization. The body of Christ, which is His Church, is the same organization, even if you cannot bring yourself to admitting it. Show me where Christ commanded everyone to go out and preach the Gospel. From what I’ve read, He ONLY commanded that of the men He chose and appointed over His Church.

 

[Dokimas]

Are you saying Christ founded the Catholic Church?

IMO, Jesus inspired His disciples to go and make disciples all over the place. Where they went, they spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Where the Gospel was received, the new Chrsitians gathered in groups. These groups of ‘called out ones,’ called out of the world into the Body of Christ, were the churches.

Paul warned against focusing in on individuals including himself. Jesus uses people to plant and to water but it is He who give the increase. Those who plant and those that water are nothing, Jesus is everything.

 

[freerf]

Freerf, I did respond to this post already but you have yet to respond to the OP, unless I overlooked it, which is:

Please give me the name of the man, or men, (if not the God - Man Jesus Christ) - that founded the Catholic Church, and when?

I concede that the Catholic Church, in so far as it belongs to the universal church, was founded by Jesus Christ. I can’t put it more simply than that.

I think the printing press was invented sometime in the mid 1400’s, so the fact that the history of the evolving church is not well-documented should be a surprise to no one.

In fact, the greek orthodox have just as much claim to being the “true church” as the catholic church. They consider you guys the scism. How about that?

I see no reason to disprove something that was never successfully proven in the first place: that there is a necessity for 1 chosen earthly church, rather than a universal church of believers.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

IMO, Jesus inspired His disciples to go and make disciples all over the place. Where they went, they spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Where the Gospel was received, the new Chrsitians gathered in groups. These groups of ‘called out ones,’ called out of the world into the Body of Christ, were the churches.

Paul warned against focusing in on individuals including himself. Jesus uses people to plant and to water but it is He who give the increase. Those who plant and those that water are nothing, Jesus is everything.

Now you say Christ built a Body of Christ, which you say were the Churches, but you cannot bring yourself to say that Christ found the Catholic Church? Do you not think that the Catholic Church is a part of the body of Christ, according to your own definition?

What purpose does telling us about Paul’s warning serve? We are of the body of Christ, which is His Church. The Catholic Church is not an individual.