Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when...

[tqualey]

Hi, Prodigal Son1,

Excellent post.

God bless

Verse 17 we see Christ specifically addressing Simon Bar-Jona and saying the Father in heaven revealed to Simon who Jesus really was.
Verse 18 starts with AND, so it’s safe to say He is still addressing Simon. Thou art Peter, this is significant as name changes by God was always significant. Abram becomes Abraham because God will make of him a great nation. Jacob becomes Israel because he contended and had power with God and with men and prevailed. Simon becomes Peter, Kipha/rock, because his strength of faith would have Christ’s Church built upon it.
Verse 19 starts again with AND, still addressing Peter here. I will give to THEE, doesn’t mention anyone else, the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Look, another AND, still addressing Peter, whatsoever THOU shalt bind on earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsover THOU loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

I sure would like to see others, that do not agree with this, to go slowly through and explain another possible meaning. This passage speaks very clearly for itself, in my honest opinion.

 

[PRmerger]

how is it the Church can have active Priests administering His body and Blood while molesting children?

Ah. So here we have it. What I call the CAFs version of Godwin’s Law.

Godwin’s law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin’s law of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all discussions —regardless of topic or scope —inevitably wind up being about Hitler and the Nazis. Also the poster who mentioned Nazis loses all debates/discussions they had in said topic, and their insults are nullified.

Here’s the CAF version of Godwin’s Law I’m proposing: “As an online discussion about the CC grows longer, the probability of a reference to sexual abuse by priests approaches 1”

However, the poster who mentions the abuse loses all debates/discussions said in topic, and his insults are nullified.

 

[guanophore]

Dok, I would have remembered if you had already answered the question in a prior post. If you refuse to answer my question here and now, why would I hope to find the answer in one of your older posts? I was really hoping you would simply answer the question now that time is running out on this thread but I think I understand the avoidance. I was once in your shoes and I think I get it…

I realized you did not remember his answer because it was on a different thread!

[

Dokimas:

I make no issue about if or when the CC lost the true faith. I believe the CC started in the 300s with Constantine and the true church is made up of ALL true believers (followers) of Jesus the Chrsit, the Son of the Living God, God in Human flesh.

](http://forums.catholic-questions.or...e+the+CC+started+in+the+300s+with+Constantine…#post6456104)

 

[Nicea325]

The universal church has at it’s head Jesus Christ, not a man.

And this is where your ignorance shows. The RCC has always taught Christ is the head.

There is no group of men who solely represent it, it has no tax-exempt status with the IRS, and there is no paperwork to fill out for membership. There is no human person that can feed us all the answers. We must rely on the holy spirit, prayer and Gods grace. Is one of us wrong? Certainly. The idea that the church cannot possibly be wrong is a Catholic notion and foreign to Protestants.

Exactly! Why do you think Jesus founded His church guided by the Holy Spirit?

I am confident that Jesus Christ knows the answer to that question. I am comfortable with my answer, that baptism does not save a man by it’s own merit. We are save by Jesus Christ. If you are comforted in the belief that your infant child will go to heaven do to the mere miracle of baptism, so be it. I find the idea that we go to hell for merely not being baptised contrary to the merciful and loving God I read about in the gospel.

And simply believing is not enough either.

I can ask you many of the same questions about the Catholic Church: how is it that this church, chosen by God as His one church can teach falsely?

Teach falsely? Name the false teachings? I can tell of you of one falsehood you adide to: A man-made church which had no authority from Jesus. When and where did Jesus authorize mere men to found thousands of different churches with many conflicting teahings? BTW: You apparently do not read Scripture with an open-mind. Show me where Jesus founded a church for perfect members? Jesus Church is for the sinner…remember?

how is it the Church can have active Priests administering His body and Blood while molesting children?

I am sure you do not want me to provide cases of PROTESTANT,FUNDAMENTALIST,etc ministers molesting children and having sex with under age girls? I did not think so!

The answer is the same. Isn’t that obvious? God allows us freedom to make mistakes.

Exactly! So what makes you believe the very church you follow may not have a child molester?

I understand that because you believe one will go to hell if they’re not baptised that it makes the issue very important.

Do yourself a favor? How about actually taking the time to study what the CC teaches,not what you have been fed by ignorant people.

I get that. I just don’t share your belief nor do I see a reasonable justification for it.

And we do not share yours because it is a FACT the tens of thousands of man-made churches have many conflicting teachings-a sign men founded them all,not God.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Guanophore,

Thanks for the clarification …

I realized you did not remember his answer because it was on a different thread!

%between%

Now, let me see if I understand this …
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
**I make no issue about if or when the CC lost the true faith. I believe the CC started in the 300s with Constantine and the true church is made up of ALL true believers (followers) of Jesus the Chrsit, the Son of the Living God, God in Human flesh. **

Someone could say the moon is made of cheese (“Wallace and Gromit” had a special show about this… wallaceandgromit.com/ ) and this gets passed on until it shows up on a link where, in effect, someone says, “I have suspended all critical thinking and refective judgment and believe what I have been told” - and, this is an argument?

So, for the first 300 years the Roman Emperors who murdered Christians in the Arena should have really succeeded - after all these early Christians had no leadership - including the Popes who also were martyred in the Arena! Thsoe Early Church Fathers who identified the successor of Peter as the one in charge of Christ’s Church really didn’t know what they were talking about! Something this dramatic happened in 300 and we just don’t know any more about it except someone said it happened? Honestly, where is the courage to stand up and ask for the facts? This is so sad.

God bless

 

[joe370]

I realized you did not remember his answer because it was on a different thread!

%between%

Oh cool! I wonder why he didn’t just say Constantine, on this thread? All I wanted was an answer. Perhaps it is because it can be easily proven that Constantine could not have possibly founded the CC, or maybe he had another reason, but if that is his answer then I will stop bugging him.

 

[Nicea325]

I make no issue about if or when the CC lost the true faith. I believe the CC started in the 300s with Constantine and the true church is made up of ALL true believers (followers) of Jesus the Chrsit, the Son of the Living God, God in Human flesh.

And how strange all my years studying History as an undergrad and graduate student not once did I or any of my friends come across the ancient documents clearing showing Constantine founded the CC? I sure wish someone would provide those important and damaging documents?

Oh wait! The Edict of Milan is that damaging document? :whacky:

 

[joe370]

Guanophore, you know, I have often wondered why any one protestant church stemming from the protestant reformation which stems from the CC, can even be trusted if in fact the CC was not the church founded by Jesus? If that were true then we would have nothing but a bunch of churches, including the CC, with zero credibility.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

“Godwin’s Law”, eh? I have not heard of this before … thanks for enlightening me!

I confess, I was surprised about the child molestation item being brought up … truly off of the wall! … and just totally out of line with the OP’s question

I don’t know about you, PRmerger … but, if I kept on getting hammered for faulty logic, non sequetors and evasions … I would probably be near death from ‘terminal embarrassment’! I would either learn what I am trying to talk about, or just be quiet and listen.

After a while I’d ask a question and then research all of the answers given to me. Not here! Not now! and No way! “Damn the Facts! Shoot from the hip and continue to post!” We can always forget there are objective facts to verify or validate one’s statement.

This entire display is very sad. It is one thing to think one is right - but, to refuse to even check one’s own information for logic, historic accuracy and simple reasonableness is simply inexcusable indifference to the ultimate Reality that God calls us to. My guess is that they are on CAF to demonstrate their beliefs - given their non-answers to the OP’s question, I would say this was a singular failure.

God bless

Ah. So here we have it. What I call the CAFs version of Godwin’s Law.

Godwin’s law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin’s law of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all discussions —regardless of topic or scope —inevitably wind up being about Hitler and the Nazis. Also the poster who mentioned Nazis loses all debates/discussions they had in said topic, and their insults are nullified.

Here’s the CAF version of Godwin’s Law I’m proposing: “As an online discussion about the CC grows longer, the probability of a reference to sexual abuse by priests approaches 1”

However, the poster who mentions the abuse loses all debates/discussions said in topic, and his insults are nullified.

 

[PRmerger]

Even the apostles of Christ had a variety of opinion.

Possibly true. They may have had different opinions on whether to broil the fish or bake it.

But different opinions on whether Jesus was the Son of God? No.
Different opinions on whether Jesus died and rose for our sins? No.
Different opinions on whether we must eat His flesh and drink His blood to have life within them? No.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

I think we have to make a distinction between before and after Pentecost.

This was the group that was arguing about who was the greatest - and, got annoyed with the James and John when their Mom steped in to put in a good word for her kids to Jesus.

This was the group that were somewhat inept at not only forgetting to bring rations but then did not understand Christ’s parables.

This was the group that did not understand what was going on in John 6 - but, willed to continue to follow Christ even though they did not understand.

This was the group that scolded the women who announced that Jesus rose from the dead - as they had their doubts about this while continuing to hide from the Jews.

I think, when taken as a whole, these men had a number of disagreements - but, were able to work together.

Then Pentecost - and the Power of God was manifest in their lives … and it is a totally different group! This is the group that moved the Catholic Church forward as the First Bishops under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit…

God bless

Possibly true. They may have had different opinions on whether to broil the fish or bake it.

But different opinions on whether Jesus was the Son of God? No.
Different opinions on whether Jesus died and rose for our sins? No.
Different opinions on whether we must eat His flesh and drink His blood to have life within them? No.

 

[xlost6]

Hello I’m new!

Just wanted to say I went through all 64 pages and it’s rather sad how Protestants can be blinded by the Truth and it’s right in front of their face.

I grew up Protestant but converting to Catholicism because it makes so much historical sense.

Protestants are born with strong pride in their movement that was created by a man with personal faith problems to begin with and lack of history of the historical Church. So whatever Catholics say it’s really going out one ear out the other of a Protestant. Until a Protestant sits down and takes the time out and research history of the Church for themselves, just like I did they will find that the Catholic Church i.e. The Universal Church, which used the word Catholic to distinguish from all those false heresies that were happening to Her and even till this day. The Catholic Church can trace back to Christ. Jesus Christ was looking for One Holy Church and gave the authority to the Apostles to direct and guide His people. Not Martin Luther or John Calvin. But the Apostles and they can be found throughout history and the legacy of all the Popes.

It’s sickening to my stomach to see all this massive hatred and pride about the Catholic Church. She is being attacked with full force more than ever!

Where did you get your Bible, Protestants? Where did scriptures come from? How did all those books come together in harmony? Who knew what was inspired and heretical?

You cannot get that in today’s Christianity. Why because Luther opened up a can of massive interpretations. Now it’s impossible for one denomination to know who is right. No one knows who is correct just because of personal private interpretations.

God allowed the Apostles to direct His people under the guidance of the Holy Spirit in One Church not the multiple churches with different interpretations creating confusion. Our God is not a God of confusion or error but a God of Love and unity!

I get a kick out of the private interpretations lol One Pastor can say this verse means this and I go to another Church another Pastor say this verse meant this. Who is right when both say they have the Holy Spirit guiding them? LOL

Isn’t it more logical to understand God wanted One Church to watch over His people and guide them and to not lead them astray. The Apostles Peter and Paul did this with their successors. I cannot believe that Apostolic succession was understood for so many centuries and now all of a sudden its thrown out in favor of pride to satisfy someone on interpetation or viewpoint being correct. No matter what a Protestant says history does not lie and you cannot alter it. It’s been said numerous times that Jesus Christ found a Universal Visble Church for His people to worship and give thanks to Him through the various traditions that were preserved in memory of Him thanks to the Apostles. Sure the Catholic Church was corrupted back then but Christ teaching is still intact and can never be swayed or altered.

Sacred Tradition has been past down over centuries and I’m so happy it still exists and is preserved! Now I know what Jesus meant when he said nothing will be able to prevail against His Church. She is still standing despite the criticisms and hatred that is created today. No one wants to hear Truth anymore it’s all pride nowadays and St. Paul said that in one of his epistles!

Sorry for my post and hope it was not offensive just expressing what was on my heart.

Thanks

Bruce

 

[PRmerger]

I think we have to make a distinction between before and after Pentecost.

Too true. Too true.

This was the group that scolded the women who announced that Jesus rose from the dead - as they had their doubts about this while continuing to hide from the Jews.

Yes, and after the scolding if I had been one of the women it would have been very hard indeed not to smugly smile when the Lord did appear to them.

 

[guanophore]

Oh cool! I wonder why he didn’t just say Constantine, on this thread? All I wanted was an answer. Perhaps it is because it can be easily proven that Constantine could not have possibly founded the CC, or maybe he had another reason, but if that is his answer then I will stop bugging him.

If you look at the thread where it was posted, evidence was demanded, and when none could be produced, that was basically the end of that.

If he stated it again, the same would only happen here, don’t you think" The whole thread has been Catholics asking for evidence…

It is better to be silent…

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore, you know, I have often wondered why any one protestant church stemming from the protestant reformation which stems from the CC, can even be trusted if in fact the CC was not the church founded by Jesus? If that were true then we would have nothing but a bunch of churches, including the CC, with zero credibility.

They believe all their credibility comes from the Scriptures. They are “bible based”, extrapolating their faith from the pages of Scripture. They felt it was necessary to jettison the authority appointed by Christ. They did not recognize that it was people who needed reform, not doctrine.

 

[joe370]

They believe all their credibility comes from the Scriptures. They are “bible based”, extrapolating their faith from the pages of Scripture. They felt it was necessary to jettison the authority appointed by Christ. They did not recognize that it was people who needed reform, not doctrine.

I agree. One thing is for sure: The reformers certainly believed that the Catholic Church was the church founded by Jesus, so I can’t help wondering why their followers, regardless of denomination, don’t believe?

 

[Cinette]

Quote:
Originally Posted by freerf
I’m not a memeber because I have not been led by God to join either church. To join the Catholic church, i must believe all it’s dogma, which i do not. If i were to join, I’d instantly become a heritic for disbelief, though I cannot force myself to believe. I therefore believe that if God wanted me to be a member, He would give me faith of belief in the Catholic Church. I take the fact that this faith has not been given as evidence that I’m not to intentionally join a church in which I’d immediately become a heritic.

I’m not a member because I believe both churches are in error. I use the example, because it’s a historical fact. I thought that’s what you guys wanted. . .

*My ex-atheist husband attended Mass with me for 11 years before converting. I had no influence on him and never insisted that he accompany me. It was a lady who sat near us at Mass who one day approached him with “When are you going to become Catholic?”. I remember her question made me a little nervous and I blushed. Then my husband joined a little group who was doing a kind of RCIA – a University lecturer undertook to instruct a group of three individuals and my husband was one of them. When time came the other two were received into the Church at Easter but my husband remained behind because he said he could not honestly say that he believed ALL that the Catholic Church teaches. It was about three years later that he took the decision to join the Church and today he attends Mass daily. I asked him what we should pray for Lent which begins this Wednesday and he said “Pray that I should have an increase of Faith”. I too pray for an increase of Faith. I always believed that my Faith was bigger than a mustard seed but since I have not yet moved mountains, I now pray for Faith the size of a mustard seed!

We need to constantly reach out in Faith and ask for more Faith. This quotation from St. Augustine applies to me and has helped me a great deal with my endless questions:

" Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand."

God bless you
Cinette
*

 

[Cinette]

*I just want to say that this thread is really good and unfortunately I have been too busy to read it all so I intend to find the time to read it all from beginning to end.

I want to thank all participants, especially the Protestants because they challenge us and make me go looking up more evidence of the truth. Thank you guys (you should to likewise! LOL!)

Cinette*

 

[panevino]

… If you are really, really looking for the men who founded the CC, I’ll give you a start, but I expext the list will be quite long (if done properly and thoroughly), but here goes:

a) let’s give Ignatius a spot on the list for his effort in creating a monoepiscopacy

the bible is pretty good at that

1peter2:25

Mat16:19 - singular address, re keys
Mat22:31-32 - the shifts from singular/plural in the verse is suggestive. supported by verses that include a primacy of place to Peter, Ie mark16:7

b) the author(s) of the Protoevangelium of James deserves a spot on the list for his/their efforts in popularizing the perpetual virginity of Mary (tis somewhat ironic that a couple of popes rejected the work)…

the bible does a pretty good job of that. Ie Mary is only ever refered to as mother of one child.

Ive Been away for a while, but want to continue our previous discussion.

 

[panevino]

do you mean at vis 3.5.1 or at Sim 9:27.1-3?
It seems you mean Sim 9:27.1-3, but I am not sure of your point.
I am not saying that an overseer/bishop does not have a key ministerial role in the Church…

Hi radical,
Was enjoying our exchange. I’ve been to busy to reply, but had a chance today.
As it’s off topic for this thread I posted it on another thread re the Eucharist…
If you are interested u can find it at
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=540952&page=7