Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when...

[tqualey]

Hi Xlost6,

Welcome to CAF, Bruce! You jumped in towards the end - but, the quality of your post is certainly most appreciated… And, let me also welcome you to the Catholic Church - THE ONE FOUNDED BY CHRIST! Each of us bring a unique experience - and yours is most certainly welcomed.

I think you will find CAF to be a real source of knowledge and wisdom - and you get to see first hand how Scripture and Sacred Tradition work hand-in-hand to show us the Church founded by Christ on Peter.

If anyone was offended, it was because they are so far into denial that even the thought of actually looking at the origin of the Catholic Church (Matt 16:18… ) is threatening. No easy answer here - but, we are all call on to use our God-given minds and free will to follow Christ. It would appear that those who wish to follow men who have painted a picture of Christ and setting themselves up for continuous frustration as they close off avenues for their own enlightenment.

Have a great day.

God bless

Hello I’m new!

Just wanted to say I went through all 64 pages and it’s rather sad how Protestants can be blinded by the Truth and it’s right in front of their face.

I grew up Protestant but converting to Catholicism because it makes so much historical sense.

Protestants are born with strong pride in their movement that was created by a man with personal faith problems to begin with and lack of history of the historical Church. So whatever Catholics say it’s really going out one ear out the other of a Protestant. Until a Protestant sits down and takes the time out and research history of the Church for themselves, just like I did they will find that the Catholic Church i.e. The Universal Church, which used the word Catholic to distinguish from all those false heresies that were happening to Her and even till this day. The Catholic Church can trace back to Christ. Jesus Christ was looking for One Holy Church and gave the authority to the Apostles to direct and guide His people. Not Martin Luther or John Calvin. But the Apostles and they can be found throughout history and the legacy of all the Popes.

It’s sickening to my stomach to see all this massive hatred and pride about the Catholic Church. She is being attacked with full force more than ever!

Where did you get your Bible, Protestants? Where did scriptures come from? How did all those books come together in harmony? Who knew what was inspired and heretical?

You cannot get that in today’s Christianity. Why because Luther opened up a can of massive interpretations. Now it’s impossible for one denomination to know who is right. No one knows who is correct just because of personal private interpretations.

God allowed the Apostles to direct His people under the guidance of the Holy Spirit in One Church not the multiple churches with different interpretations creating confusion. Our God is not a God of confusion or error but a God of Love and unity!

I get a kick out of the private interpretations lol One Pastor can say this verse means this and I go to another Church another Pastor say this verse meant this. Who is right when both say they have the Holy Spirit guiding them? LOL

Isn’t it more logical to understand God wanted One Church to watch over His people and guide them and to not lead them astray. The Apostles Peter and Paul did this with their successors. I cannot believe that Apostolic succession was understood for so many centuries and now all of a sudden its thrown out in favor of pride to satisfy someone on interpetation or viewpoint being correct. No matter what a Protestant says history does not lie and you cannot alter it. It’s been said numerous times that Jesus Christ found a Universal Visble Church for His people to worship and give thanks to Him through the various traditions that were preserved in memory of Him thanks to the Apostles. Sure the Catholic Church was corrupted back then but Christ teaching is still intact and can never be swayed or altered.

Sacred Tradition has been past down over centuries and I’m so happy it still exists and is preserved! Now I know what Jesus meant when he said nothing will be able to prevail against His Church. She is still standing despite the criticisms and hatred that is created today. No one wants to hear Truth anymore it’s all pride nowadays and St. Paul said that in one of his epistles!

Sorry for my post and hope it was not offensive just expressing what was on my heart.

Thanks

Bruce

 

[havana1]

Yeah, let’s get that one out of the way. I know of no one in the protestant sphere who is willing to suggest that Constantine was the founder of the Catholic Church, so we can move on…

I’m glad to see this thread. There are a LOT of non-Catholics who believe Constantine founded the Catholic Church, particularly everyone I know in “Calvary Chapel” and “Vineyard Fellowship” - they are very strident in that belief. I wish Catholic Answers would take a more pro-active step in addressing this, because the reason non-Catholics don’t ask about this much is because they take it as a given and don’t feel the need to ask about it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Oh cool! I wonder why he didn’t just say Constantine, on this thread? All I wanted was an answer. Perhaps it is because it can be easily proven that Constantine could not have possibly founded the CC, or maybe he had another reason, but if that is his answer then I will stop bugging him.

If you’ve been following this thread you’ll see where I was called out for speaking about, and using documentation from, the early Church fathers. Along with this type documentation I, and other Catholics, have been using scriptures to show why we firmly believe we belong to the Church that Christ started.

We have been refuted with little to no supporting evidence as to why some do not accept this. The little supporting evidence, used by some, appears to be lines, or ‘snippets’, from website that are anti-Catholic. It seems that maybe the punchlines are being utilized but the rationale is being left out, whether it’s from not reading the material fully or not doing a proper research from other angles to weigh the information used.

When scriptures and writings from the early Church fathers, as well as secular history, with detailed explanations are ignored in favor of modern biased ‘snippets’, without explanations, there is a lack of honesty in the discussion and it has appearances of being ‘anti’-Catholic. While the ‘anti’-Catholic appearance may not be intentional, that’s the way it appears to many of us. One can strongly deny being ‘anti’-Catholic, but that denial is blind to how it is being perceived.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Havana1,

I have been thinking about your post … and, I must say, I really am surprised. It is not that I have never heard about Constantine ‘…founding the Catholic Church…’ - but, just not expressed as you have done.

Maybe speaking out louder against this myth is something to look at. Personally, I always thought of Constantine as a ‘good guy’ in that he is primarily responsible for the Edict of Milan. I have also thought of him as someone who wanted their cake and ate it, too! Most of us are products of our times … and, there was no reason (at least for me) to think of this Emperor any differently in these terms.

Thanks for your post.

God bless

I’m glad to see this thread. There are a LOT of non-Catholics who believe Constantine founded the Catholic Church, particularly everyone I know in “Calvary Chapel” and “Vineyard Fellowship” - they are very strident in that belief. I wish Catholic Answers would take a more pro-active step in addressing this, because the reason non-Catholics don’t ask about this much is because they take it as a given and don’t feel the need to ask about it.

 

[Dokimas]

Hi, Dokimas,

I think that a small but critical qualification needs to be made at this point: It was NOT indulgences - but, the SALE of indulgences that caused the original problem. Another term for this would be simony. Those who tried to sell indulgences were guilt of a grave fault - a serious sin! Selling indulgences was NEVER a teaching of the Catholic Church - but, some of its members tried to get away with this and wee caught.

It is at this point that had Luther looked back to a most honored saint and, cooperating witht the Grace of God, followed the example of St. Catherine of Siena - there could be a St. Martin Luther honored in the Catholic Church! Here is an intersting link: newadvent.org/cathen/03447a.htm It should be noted, however, that this is really off-topic … but, would probably make for an interesting thread…

I guess I am just getting forgetful, Dokimas - but, what was your response to Who actually founded the Catholic Church?

God bless

I fully expect to see St Luther if, by God’s grace and mercy, I make it to God’s Heaven.

As for what I"ve said, I forget too.

 

[Dokimas]

Are you referring to sola scriptura advocates being obedient to scripture?

All who are truly Christian. I’m pretty sure there have been many ‘SS’ advocates included in my comment. I’m sure there have been many catholics how have started catholic churches in places of need, too.

So, you answered my question by agreeing with statements made by others on the subject?

Yes, at least partly.

You doubt that I was a protestant at one time?

I don’t doubt that you were once a protestant. That’s not what I was doubting. Remember the 30,000 denoms - you weren’t a member of each one, were you? If not, then you most likely don’t know where I’m coming from. BTW, I don’t call myself protestant, especially if it means protesting. I’m not protesting anything within Chrstianity.

OK, but why are you avoiding a simple question? Whatever answer you give me I will respect even if I don’t agree. What’s tiring is asking the same simple question and being ignored over and over. If you don’t want to answer the question just say so, but as long as you or anyone else is participating on this thread I am obligated to ask the following:

Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when?

I said all I intend to on that specific issue. I’m now responding to other things that you and others keep mentioning.

 

[Dokimas]

Hi, Dokimas,

Just imagine if Christ had said something like this to Peter after his denial? Do you think He could or should have stripped Peter of the authority given to him in Matt 16:18? It looks like most people would have not only fired him as the leader - but, drummed him out of the Apostle group! And that should be sufficient evidence that Isaiah 55:8 hit the nail right on the head - God’s ways are not our ways.

While none of the Popes (besides Peter) denied Christ to His Face - there have been several successors who lives lives of public scandal (as opposed to saintly lives we would have wanted them all to lead). Have no doubt about it - they will be held to account for the bad example their lives have given to others … from their contemporaries to this very generation! But, there is a bright side to this very dark cloud…!

If ever there was a group of men who had the authority to teach error in Faith and Morals - here they were! But, you know what … they never did! The same Faith held by the Apostles - is taught today. Here are just four examples:

Eucharist - it REALLY IS the Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ!
Baptism - it is REALLY needed to become a Child of God and Heir to the Kingdom of Heaven as it forgives sin and marks us forever as having this special grace… and it has always been open to infants!
Confession - God REALLY DOES forgive our sins THROUGH the priest - even though that priest is himself a sinful human.
Confirmation - the Holy Spirit REALLY comes and bestows His special graces on us as He marks us in a unique way through this Sacrament.

But, as interesting as this is - I still would appreciate you addressing the OPs original question. Thanks!

God bless

Thanks, TQ

 

[Dokimas]

Hi, Dokimas,

I fear you do Joe370 an injustice!.. to say nothing of the rest of us. I have been following your posts - and I really do not recall you clearly stating Who founded the Catholic Church. Naturally, such a response will need documentation - so, feel free to use Scripture, e.g., Matt 16:18 or any of the ECF.

From the looks of things - there was a rovolt of many different groups in the 16th Century and beyond of all those who wanted no longer to be branches on the Vine of Christ, to no longer be associated with the Bride of Christ as established by Christ Himself. But, while all of this is historic and quite documentable - none of it addresses the Church those in revolt were splittig from and Who as their Founder.

That is the OP’s quesiton and that you really have not answered. I admit that a lot of words have been spent in dancing around this issue - but, no one has come down and simply said, “Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church around 33AD.” No one is really offering another answer - but, no one - other then the Catholic posters - are saying it was Christ (and giving verifiable references to substantiate the statement!)

As I understand the OP’s question - it is really historic, and does not call for anyone to come in with a beginning bias to evade this straight forward question. So, how about a straight forward answer?

God bless

If we were to ask Peter if he was the first pope, my guess he’d say no, or ‘what’s a pope?’

If you asked Peter if the name of the church in AD33 was The Catholic Church, my guess is he’d say ‘no’.

So, IMO, the CC did not start @ AD33.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If we were to ask Peter if he was the first pope, my guess he’d say no, or ‘what’s a pope?’

If you asked Peter if the name of the church in AD33 was The Catholic Church, my guess is he’d say ‘no’.

So, IMO, the CC did not start @ AD33.

And if we ask him if we should share the Gospel on the internet?

 

[Dokimas]

I realized you did not remember his answer because it was on a different thread!

%between%

Note the date that was posted.

Several posts after that one was

[SIGN]Quote by WMSCOTT: The combination “the Catholic Church” (he katholike ekklesia) is found for the first time in the letter of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans (LINK), written about the year 110

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

So being written in 110 AD, do you suppose the term “Catholic Church” just popped up out of thin air at that point in time? Or is it a term that was being used long before then.[/SIGN]

A similar comment was made by one of you, on this thread I believe, and I said, maybe you’ve got your answer.

Note the quote by ST. Ignatius. Did he capitolize TCC? If not, he wasn’t calling the church TCC but tcc. There’s a difference. Surely Jesus started His universal church which is made of all true Chrstians no matter what church they go to.

I have NO problem understanding the church Jesus start is the universal church as an adjective not as a noun. That surely would go along with the Bible.

 

[adrift]

Thanks for your opinion.

BTW, I was at the health club this morning thinking about this discussion. It occurred to me that, I guess, you could say I was ‘playing a game’ with my first post, ‘Constintine’. It may have been a game in the sense that I have no clue and I don’t care who started the present form of the CC, it’s none of my business.

I think this needs to be repeated.

 

[rinnie]

If we were to ask Peter if he was the first pope, my guess he’d say no, or ‘what’s a pope?’

If you asked Peter if the name of the church in AD33 was The Catholic Church, my guess is he’d say ‘no’.

So, IMO, the CC did not start @ AD33.

And what if Peter would have said Of course I am the first Pope, the Leader of the CC? Because I am sure he would not deny this, What is the Pope, simple the leader of the Sheep, Did Christ ask Peter to lead his sheep? Yes he did.

I am asked this question for about a month and never go a reply from anyone, but I will answer it now.

Jesus asked Peter 3 times. to feed his sheep, but it was not until the last time that Jesus asked Peter that Peter gave Jesus the answer he wanted. What made that last answer so different from first 2 answers?? Simple. Peter answered Jesus the way he was supposed to answer. He answered Jesus in the divine way.

The first two answers were answers of this world, but the last answer was of the world of Christ, Divine, Only God knows all, and as Peter stated Jesus you know everything. When he said that finally said, (in a round about way!! Yes Peter right answer). Now Peter was speaking as he was taught to Speak!!

Jesus was saying Peter you are the leader, and Jesus was saying I made my choice before I was crucified, and my choice was the correct choice. Peter you are still the leader (POPE) which is our word for leader today!! Lead my Sheep. The Pope is still the leader as from the beginning of time.

If I were to ask Peter were you the first Leader (POPE) Peter would answer what does the word of God tell you!! Of course I would lead my Fathers Sheep, my Father knew I would before he asked me!! My Father knows all!!

 

[joe370]

I’m glad to see this thread. There are a LOT of non-Catholics who believe Constantine founded the Catholic Church, particularly everyone I know in “Calvary Chapel” and “Vineyard Fellowship” - they are very strident in that belief. I wish Catholic Answers would take a more pro-active step in addressing this, because the reason non-Catholics don’t ask about this much is because they take it as a given and don’t feel the need to ask about it.

What about the obvious fact that the Catholic church existed long before Constantine was even born?

 

[joe370]

As I mentioned in our last PM, since you wrongly accused me of “baiting and then slamming” I am all done asking you to please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when, which means there is nothing for you and I to discuss here on this thread.

Peace…

All who are truly Christian. I’m pretty sure there have been many ‘SS’ advocates included in my comment. I’m sure there have been many catholics how have started catholic churches in places of need, too.

Yes, at least partly.

I don’t doubt that you were once a protestant. That’s not what I was doubting. Remember the 30,000 denoms - you weren’t a member of each one, were you? If not, then you most likely don’t know where I’m coming from. BTW, I don’t call myself protestant, especially if it means protesting. I’m not protesting anything within Chrstianity.

I said all I intend to on that specific issue. I’m now responding to other things that you and others keep mentioning.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What about the obvious fact that the Catholic church existed long before Constantine was even born?

It’s hard to argue with a Church that was established in 1965 Joe.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Dokimas,

This is really a shame. We are at the end of this thread - and, you are still evading. Look at your answer - or, rather non-answer - to the OP. You assert Christ did not start the Catholic Church in 33AD … but, that was NOT the question! WHO started the Catholic Church.

As I see it, this is the root issue. To merely deny Christ (in more ways than one) started the Catholic Church is really an evasion, and, I think you know that. Not that you are the only one to be evasive here - but, really, if we have an obligation to follow the Truth, how can we duck the issue? This is the gnawing issue at the heart of every seeker of Truth - can we honestly say that we have done what we need to do - when we are still refusing to tackle this matter head on?

Personally, while I realize that Protestants have a lot of emotional currency wrapped up in their belief system - this will not carry the day when we appear before our Judge. All of us on this list are expected to do our best in responding to the thread - and, as I see it, that means at least offering a logical response to the question. If not, then why bother to be on the list? Judging from the number of posts you have made - you have been at this for a while. I know you can do better.

Looking forward to your response.

God bless

If we were to ask Peter if he was the first pope, my guess he’d say no, or ‘what’s a pope?’

If you asked Peter if the name of the church in AD33 was The Catholic Church, my guess is he’d say ‘no’.

So, IMO, the CC did not start @ AD33.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Joe370,

I have found that there are many people who are quite ignorant of US history (excuse the national reference … but, for those outside of the US, chances are you have found that many people are ignorant of your country’s history, too…?). Expecting a group to know something this particular of Constantine (when most probably are unfamiliar with him) may be expecting a lot.

To this batch of historic ignorance, sprinkly in anti-Catholic comments, such as ‘Constantine founded the Catholic Church - and now let me personally interpret Matt 16:18 so as tell you what Christ really meant!’ This is the problem that I understood Havana1 to be talking about (now, would be a good time for Havana1 to join us… )

Comments about the Catholic Church being in existence before Constantine was born are totally lost on a group without a sense of history. You may wonder just were these previous Roman Emperors actively persecuting before Constantine stopped this mass murder…

God bless

What about the obvious fact that the Catholic church existed long before Constantine was even born?

 

[Dokimas]

As I mentioned in our last PM, since you wrongly accused me of “baiting and then slamming” I am all done asking you to please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when, which means there is nothing for you and I to discuss here on this thread.

Peace…

Let me publically apologize to you for saying you are baiting and slamming when I wrote you a private message. I have no proof and maybe I’m mixing you up with someone else.

 

[Dokimas]

I’ve spent too much time quickly going through this thread looking for my comments on the OP.

I either missed a post or two where I commented in agreement to someones definition of the church or it was only in my imagination.

I made direct or indirect comments in the following posts:

211, 259, 275, 300, 428, 753, 764, 824.

Now, if I disagree with the teachings of infant baptism, real presence in Holy Communion, some of the CC teachings on Mary, Peter being the 1st pope, etc that I believe I’ve been told go all the way back to the 1st century, then the CC of 2011, IMO, is not the universal church started in the 1st century. That means that IMO the CC is like all Christian churches which have many of it’s member that are part of the universal church but is not THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH.

As I understand the doctrines of the CC, the church is Christian and ALL truly Christian churchs are founded as the Holy Spirit moved in the lives of one or more people who through the Gospel of Jesus, brought together those who received Jesus as their Savior.

 

[Dokimas]

Hi, Dokimas,

This is really a shame. We are at the end of this thread - and, you are still evading. Look at your answer - or, rather non-answer - to the OP. You assert Christ did not start the Catholic Church in 33AD … but, that was NOT the question! WHO started the Catholic Church.

I have no problem saying the God started the CC. (not in 33AD as I’ve stated is my opinion) Can you say that about non-catholic Christian churches?

As I see it, this is the root issue. To merely deny Christ (in more ways than one) started the Catholic Church is really an evasion, and, I think you know that. Not that you are the only one to be evasive here - but, really, if we have an obligation to follow the Truth, how can we duck the issue?