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Righteousone
Guest
Says you.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
The bible says theres gonna be a new heaven and new earth. That has got to be the next big bang!
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S_V7
Guest
Umm yeah. Don’t they have all those competionions for dominance and such?
I don’t claim that humans are mere animals or that animals are as humans. I see no problem with eating beef. what I meant was: animals kill animals indifferently - cats kill mice indifferently, humans kill humans indifferently? I feel like I’m not being clear though I don’t have much time to clarify.(I’m about to get kicked out of the library
)Yes and many of these laws are similar. How can they not be similar when we have the natural moral law?. But, probably due to mans’ fallen nature, there have been errors in the interpretation.
What better company than God
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Hastrman
Guest
Well you might want to tell all those 4000 years of Hindu philosophy, since they’ve always had a cyclical model of time, and yet hold the universe is radically contingent…on God.
A true philosopher has no need of a beginning in order to postulate God–since there is nothing about the universe that intrinsically requires it exist. Therefore it is dependent on something that does necessarily exist. This thing is Being itself (since its nature is existence itself), which we call God.
Besides which, the oscillating universe (cyclic model) isn’t terribly strong.
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AgnosTheist
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Umm yeah. Don’t WE have all those competionions for dominance and such?
Cats kill cats indifferently too. At least my cat did. Killed a new kitten that we just adopted.I don’t claim that humans are mere animals or that animals are as humans. I see no problem with eating beef. what I meant was: animals kill animals indifferently - cats kill mice indifferently, humans kill humans indifferently? I feel like I’m not being clear though I don’t have much time to clarify.(I’m about to get kicked out of the library
God is never a good company. You always end up talking to the air in front of you. Nobody listens.What better company than God
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S_V7
Guest
Your right, just look at politics and economics. But that doesn’t mean were gonna kill each other for it positions. We have reason remember
I’m sorry about your kitten
they are lovely creatures. I had three myself but my parents thought one was enough.Yes animals kill each other indifferently but if this was applied by the human race…well I need not say what would happen. :nope:
I’m sorry you feel this way. I don’t personally know you or if you’re an atheist or an agnostic so I can’t speak about your disposition but I’ll throw this out anyways. How can you expect to recognize something your unwilling to recognize?
He listened to me.Nobody listens.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
I really need some help in dealing with these articles. They claims to refute many arguments for the existance of God and since I’m just a novice (not even) in my philosophical thinking, these articles really runs circles around my head.
religionislies.com/godnoevidence.html
lhup.edu/~dsimanek/philosop/pudding.htm
They’re rather long, but if anyone can answer only one or more of these arguments I’ll be very grateful. I feel at the moment a disgusting fear of possibly becoming an atheist as a result of these and other like arguments, and I can’t fathom the thought of life as meaningless and existance worthless…‘we’re all going to die anyway so why bother with love, life, compassion, truth, morality, equlity, happiness, education, freedom, power, finding a cure for such disease, contributing to society etc… it all ceases to exist at death so why care’ kind of feeling
Not to mention the horrific prospect of losing Jesus, whom I’ve recently began to fall so much in love with…that’s a fate infinitely worse than any unspeakable atrocity I can think of.
This was also posted as an answer to the question “Where can I find a formal refutation of Aquinas’ ‘Five proofs of God’, the ‘Quinquae viae’?”
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071126085634AAmdTKO
Any help *at all *would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks and God bless
For an intelligent discussion of the Five Ways in Aquinas, Robert Leet Paterson’s book The Conception of God in the Philosophy of Aquinas is hard to beat
The criticisms you quote upset Aquinas’ arguments not at all, because they are of a wholly different kind from his. One does not prove that air contains oxygen by saying that it is comes through a window - true as both assertions may be, only one tells us anything about it. One might as well undertake to appreciate a painting by insisting it was painted in 55 hours 23 minutes precisely - that tells one nothing about its artistic value. If artistry were reducible to minutes & seconds, it would - but it’s not. Who in their senses ever identified a painting by asking a curator where to find the painting that took X hours & Y minutes to paint ? Some objections are not intelligent, so they deserve to be pilloried lest they take anyone in.So these arguments are irrelevant to his; some of them might be formidable if one were a Kantian.
Thomas was arguing from metaphysics - so the facts or probabilities of quantum theory are beside the point.
Kant’s arguments in the Critique of Pure Reason include a refutation of two arguments not made by Aquinas, & an unsuccessful refutation of one of the Ways; he was not arguing against Aquinas, but against other arguments, one of which - the ontological - is rejected by Aquinas. It is essential to realise that the Five Ways of Thomas are - with one exception - not the same as the arguments criticised by Kant. When William James discusses the philosophical arguments for God’s existence in “Varieties of Religious Experience”, his dismissal of their validity is based squarely on Kant’s refutation of them in the form in which Kant knew them: not on the form in which Thomas discusses them. It is a safe guess that James is read more widely than Aquinas or even Kant, so an arguer is likely to mistake a quotation from James’ discussion of Kant for a refutation of the Five Ways of Thomas, & this, for a refutation of the intellectual basis of Christian theism.
Metaphysics is the study of Being, which is inaccessible to the sciences, which is why it is pointless to bring on quantum physics. So don’t be upset by arguments like that.
Most importantly perhaps: God is not an object in the universe. To repeat: God is not an object in the universe. And once more: God is not an object in the universe. God is not one of many realities, but the Only Really Real Being. This is why - metaphysically - He is called Holy: to be holy, is to be “separate-from”, “not-like” any other beings that may exist. God the Holy One is utterly, utterly, utterly, utterly unlike any creature - there is no possible term of comparison between God, & created beings. Second Isaiah could see this in Isaiah 40 following - so we Christians should be able to. And in Isa. 6.3, we have the seraphim repeating & repeating again that God is Holy.
The importance of the Holiness of God cannot be exaggerated - by knowing of it, we are in a position to realise that God is unapproachably Unique. As He is the Creator of all created being - & the Only Creator ! - He can bring other beings into being; but the initiative is always from His side. Not ever from the side of the creature; that cannot be. So there can be things that resemble Him - but He resembles none of them: God is unlike all creatureliness. This is an essential of Judaeo-Christian thinking; not mere “uplift” - it is not that at all. Put metaphysically, there are no real relations of creatures to God - only of God to creatures. So Christ can come down to us - but we cannot fetch Him down.
BTW: the universe is arranged around Christ - He is the Purpose of life, & the Meaning of Life. St. Paul & St. John unfold these truths as none else can
So this fear of losing Christ is empty: He cares a great deal more for us than we could for Him. To realise this, we must have faith that it is so. Faith is needed especially when we see no reason to have it - IOW, amidst the doubts that are troubling you. It is not based on reason, but is God’s gracious gift - so no reason can destroy it or support it.
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S_V7
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I think St. Faustina pretty much hit the nail in the head as to why prefer God over atheism when she wrote in her dairy:
“O Uncreated Beauty, whoever comes to know You once cannot love anything else. I can feel the bottomless abyss of my soul, and nothing will fill it but God Himself.”
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S_V7
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Thank you for your concern but that wasn’t what I meant. I’m sure that many atheists/agnostics see correctly what a beautiful gift life is. My problem with atheism is that it can’t define a concrete purpose for this life, and without such a purpose, life becomes meaningless.
The thing is, many of these views are generally Christian, no?
Yes but living such a life would require a rebellion against our human nature. If we are but animals, why should we contradict our animal instincts and care about anything other than ourselves?
Again, who decides what is wrong and right? The law, my friends and family pretty much base right and wrong from the natural moral law and Christian values, still we are human and make mistakes. Why is it that everyone agrees (for the most part) on good and evil? Life is good, murder is wrong. basic principles right? If not from God, where do they come from and why are they so natural as to be valued by humanity?
I agree that those virtues are smart and rewarding but not always in the sense you may be thinking of. Honesty in this world seems increasingly rare. It seems like many people find lying and cheating more rewarding. Same with generosity. Greed is nothing new and certainly seems rewarding to some, but it’s obviously a selfish vice. Sadly, many don’t seem to care.
Thank you for the suggestion. I’ve never heard of Victor Frankl but might read that someday since I can’t shop online an doubt our school library will have a copy.
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1234
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QUOTE:
Thank you for your concern but that wasn’t what I meant. I’m sure that many atheists/agnostics see correctly what a beautiful gift life is. My problem with atheism is that it can’t define a concrete purpose for this life, and without such a purpose, life becomes meaningless.
You make meaning in your life. You decide that you want to help others, be charitable, thoughtful, generous. These are not Christian virtues alone. They are emphasized in every religion and in …epicurean philosophy. Exercising these virtues helps yourself, your family and society. The Unitarians, not noted for their religious practice, support philanthrophy all out of proportion to their numbers.
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People who have come to accept non-organized religious views often live very meaningful lives, full of love, charity, good works, generosity.
The thing is, many of these views are generally Christian, no*?
For example, some of the most outstanding philanthropists in this country are Jewish, and most are not religious. Particularly in the east, there are huge philanthropies, hospitals, art buildings and collections which were founded and given away by Jews. An astounding portion of the collection of great works in the National Gallery of London were donated by Jews.
*QUOTE:
It doesn’t matter if “we’re all going to die anyway.” We all have only one life, so it makes sense to live it with “love, life, compassion, truth, morality, equality, happiness, education, freedom”, to quote you. There is no reason why not to, as I’ve written before.
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Yes but living such a life would require a rebellion against our human nature. If we are but animals, why should we contradict our animal instincts and care about anything other than ourselves?
Actually, it doesn’t. It is our nature, as social beings, to want to be well-liked and to get along. You may be surrounded by asocial idiots now, but this isn’t going to last. Once you are in the working world, as long as your not dealing in drugs, most of the people around you are going to be pretty decent and you will have to learn to act decently if you want to get along, do well, have friends of both sexes.
There is a lot of talk on this forum about how lowly animals are. This is not true at all. Carnivores kill to survive-to eat or to protect their young. . Very few animals kill for sport, unlike humans. They don’t start wars. Many animals mate for life and do everything for their offspring. Someone posted an article about compassion in primates, who let themselves starve rather than harm another of their kind (ingenious experiment).
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Again, who decides what is wrong and right? The law, my friends and family pretty much base right and wrong from the natural moral law and Christian values, still we are human and make mistakes. Why is it that everyone agrees (for the most part) on good and evil? Life is good, murder is wrong. basic principles right? If not from God, where do they come from and why are they so natural as to be valued by humanity?
The basic laws evolved to help the early clans and tribes survive. Early mankind had to protect their mates and their children; they had to cooperate to gather food and kill beasts for food. They had to feel safe to collect and own goods and not have them stolen. They had to create laws to protect their families. All of the requirements of society evolved. Laws that serve the greater good survive; laws and beliefs that don’t serve the greater good do not. Tribes that perpetually fought wars, for example, tended to die out or eventually be wiped out.
I know that young people hate to be told that they’re ‘young’ or ‘immature’, but there’s a lot that you’ll understand better when you’re older, and not that much older. College will help.
If I may speak frankly, you appear to be depressed and isolated. I have asked you before about getting hobbies, new friends, new activities, talking to your parents, maybe switching to a new school, if possible. What about talking to your priest or a school counselor. Your concerns appear to go far beyond a concern about religion of the scope of this forum.
Thank you for your concern but that wasn’t what I meant. I’m sure that many atheists/agnostics see correctly what a beautiful gift life is. My problem with atheism is that it can’t define a concrete purpose for this life, and without such a purpose, life becomes meaningless.
You make meaning in your life. You decide that you want to help others, be charitable, thoughtful, generous. These are not Christian virtues alone. They are emphasized in every religion and in …epicurean philosophy. Exercising these virtues helps yourself, your family and society. The Unitarians, not noted for their religious practice, support philanthrophy all out of proportion to their numbers.
*
QUOTE:
People who have come to accept non-organized religious views often live very meaningful lives, full of love, charity, good works, generosity.
The thing is, many of these views are generally Christian, no*?
For example, some of the most outstanding philanthropists in this country are Jewish, and most are not religious. Particularly in the east, there are huge philanthropies, hospitals, art buildings and collections which were founded and given away by Jews. An astounding portion of the collection of great works in the National Gallery of London were donated by Jews.
*QUOTE:
It doesn’t matter if “we’re all going to die anyway.” We all have only one life, so it makes sense to live it with “love, life, compassion, truth, morality, equality, happiness, education, freedom”, to quote you. There is no reason why not to, as I’ve written before.
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Yes but living such a life would require a rebellion against our human nature. If we are but animals, why should we contradict our animal instincts and care about anything other than ourselves?
Actually, it doesn’t. It is our nature, as social beings, to want to be well-liked and to get along. You may be surrounded by asocial idiots now, but this isn’t going to last. Once you are in the working world, as long as your not dealing in drugs, most of the people around you are going to be pretty decent and you will have to learn to act decently if you want to get along, do well, have friends of both sexes.
There is a lot of talk on this forum about how lowly animals are. This is not true at all. Carnivores kill to survive-to eat or to protect their young. . Very few animals kill for sport, unlike humans. They don’t start wars. Many animals mate for life and do everything for their offspring. Someone posted an article about compassion in primates, who let themselves starve rather than harm another of their kind (ingenious experiment).
QUOTE:
Again, who decides what is wrong and right? The law, my friends and family pretty much base right and wrong from the natural moral law and Christian values, still we are human and make mistakes. Why is it that everyone agrees (for the most part) on good and evil? Life is good, murder is wrong. basic principles right? If not from God, where do they come from and why are they so natural as to be valued by humanity?
The basic laws evolved to help the early clans and tribes survive. Early mankind had to protect their mates and their children; they had to cooperate to gather food and kill beasts for food. They had to feel safe to collect and own goods and not have them stolen. They had to create laws to protect their families. All of the requirements of society evolved. Laws that serve the greater good survive; laws and beliefs that don’t serve the greater good do not. Tribes that perpetually fought wars, for example, tended to die out or eventually be wiped out.
- QUOTE:
I agree that those virtues are smart and rewarding but not always in the sense you may be thinking of. Honesty in this world seems increasingly rare. It seems like many people find lying and cheating more rewarding. Same with generosity. Greed is nothing new and certainly seems rewarding to some, but it’s obviously a selfish vice. Sadly, many don’t seem to care.*
I know that young people hate to be told that they’re ‘young’ or ‘immature’, but there’s a lot that you’ll understand better when you’re older, and not that much older. College will help.
If I may speak frankly, you appear to be depressed and isolated. I have asked you before about getting hobbies, new friends, new activities, talking to your parents, maybe switching to a new school, if possible. What about talking to your priest or a school counselor. Your concerns appear to go far beyond a concern about religion of the scope of this forum.
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S_V7
Guest
I don’t have much time now but I just had to address the latter part of your post now, I’ll see what I can do tomorrow.
It is rather a generalization, but it’s not limited to school. I’ve seen many adults act in such a way. Now I don’t mean to set myself up as a judge or anything, this is just my conclusion from what I see and I don’t calim it to be a tested truth.
Actually, you’d be surprised by how many people my age seem to love being immature, it gets very annoying after a while, especially when trying to discuss something serious and all you get is joke after joke after joke…I believe it’s a form of distraction from problems or something, but I truly don’t know.
ahhh college!! I’m not there so I can’t say what it’s like, but from what I can tell, many, though not all, people see it as getting mom and dad off their backs and doing whatever whenever…I’m assuming they’ll be in for a major wake up call once grades fall and responsibility skyrockets. True, there is alot I don’t understand and probably never will, but I’m content with seeking out the answers I can comperhend within my tiny mental space.
Well, I was rather depressed about two or three years ago (sometimes I even wondered if I might go insane
) and what got me out of it was God and my suddenly increased interest in Him and religion one summer. I had moped around alot about my problems and when I learned more about God, I realized how pathetic I was being and began changing. You may be right in saying that I’m “isolated” in a way but I feel much of that has to do with my beliefs and other’s ‘intolerance’ and that’s encouraging . I’m going to toot my own horn here a bit- I try to be honest and do the right thing, and in those few times in which I succeed, it usually ends with someone being unhappy with me (such as ‘no you can’t copy my homework’ and the other person looking at me as though I’m out of it )Thanks again fot your concern, but I feel you might have misunderstood. The more I delve into my faith, the more I long to detach myself from the world and it’s vanities and seek to love and serve the Lord. I’m not saying that friends and hobbies are vain (certainly not! I love my friends and fiddling with my fiddle is quite rewarding
) I just see something more than what the world lays before me. I remember some quote from a book that said something like ‘there are two kinds of wisdom, worldly and spiritual and the posseser of one thinks the other foolish’ or something of the like and well, I want to be a fool in the eyes of the world. Honestly, the more I study, read and learn about the Church, the happier I’ve become in my journey for truth, I just get so frustrated and annoyed when I see so many ignore God and His ways when listening to Him would change so much as it did for me and countless others. Don’t get me wrong though, I have my share of failures and inumerable sins so I can’t throw stones, I just wish people would seriously consider the possibility of an ‘inconveniant’ truth and I don’t mean just athiests but everyone, especially Christians who sometimes feel that it’s either ‘their way or no way’. I have talked to my parish priest and he has given me a gold mine of insight on many issues, which is one of the reasons as to why I spend so much time here…to learn:thumbsup:I rambled more than I planned and now I have to go study for my physics quiz. later!
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steve_b
Guest
does a watch preceed the watchmaker?
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steve_b
Guest
Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Atheists do this they just don’t call it faith.
Don’t you find it interesting that atheists can propose singularity was just there, and from it the big bang occured?
Ikddav:
*]If all life ends, then it presumes life was created in the first place. Life can only come from life.
*]You don’t know what happens after death, so you hope nothing happens after death. And you think you’re sure of of your position but you can’t prove it because you haven’t seen yet what you hope for… That my friend is faith.
Now we need to work on you getting the correct faith
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I appreciate your responses, very thought provoking, rational, logical and reasonable; also very straightforward. One should be helpful to humanity **on merit **irrespective of race, religion and colour. That is what GodAllahYHWH wants; then one would get twofold reward, in this world and also in the hereafter. One should be a good human being as well as obedient to GodAllahYHWH.
I respect you very much.
Thanks indeed
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S_V7
Guest
Well one can give their life all the meaning they want but that doesn’t change the fact that without God, death is the end. We cease to exist and that’s the end of that. Wouldn’t matter what life we led because, well it doesn’t matter in the end! We can go on and on about the benifits of a good life, but without God, it really doesn’t matter.
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S_V7
Guest
And again, with no God, why would I want to live this life if it meant grief for me (which it often does, but I don’t expect my reward in this life:thumbsup
. And yes, one does feel great in living this kind of life but it’s definatley a lot harder than the alternative.
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mchale
Guest
(With respect to there being only one prime mover). Because it is the definition of prime mover. That can’t be more than one because by definition, the prime mover is the ultimate source of all movement. If there is more than one, then by definition of prime mover there is no prime mover.
No disrespect intended, but if you are going to try and refute philosophical arguments that have been around hundreds of years, don’t you think you should actually understand the terms being used?
Actually, there is plenty of evidence of miracles out there. Medical literature is filled with cases of people recovering from incurable diseases spontaneously. What skeptics want however are not miracles, they want miracles on demand.your case would have been made much simpler if there had been just one recorded sample of an actual miracle. its difficult to imagine why demons & angels both just shied away from modernization.
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Bill
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S_V7
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Of course they’re emphasized in other religions, we have the natural moral law, but like I said, it’s probably been distorted by human nature.
What I meant by human nature was our inital responses to seek our selfish benefits instead of going out of our way to help others.
What I meant by human nature was our inital response to seek our selfish benefits instead of going out of our way to help others. Doing so requires a lot of self denial which contradits instinct.
Cats certainly seem to kill for sport and I’m sure they’re not the only ones. I can’t remeber how many times my mother yelled after having found a ‘present’ from my cat on the front porch
That certainly may be true, but I’m sure it can’t compare to the level and complexity of human interaction, I mean, we barley seem to understand ourselves! That seems like an interesting article, can you post a link? I remember reading somewhere about how chimps showed compasssion but not empathy or something.
I foudn an article dealing with something similar but I only skimmed it. Take a look if you’d like…err I think it’s about evolution
godandscience.org/evolution/evolution_contradict_genesis.html
I know just the basics about this and havn’t read too much about it so I don’t trust my knowledge to respond adequatley(sp?) but I found this article that deals with the natural law and all, you may have read it already but here it is: newadvent.org/cathen/09076a.htm
If anyone has links or anything dealing with both sides on this subject, I would appreciate it:thumbsup:
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Phixional_Ninja
Guest
Some atheists do that, you’re absolutely right. Those who do have no more right to criticize your faith than you do to criticize theirs, all faiths are equal.
Personally, I do my best to avoid all faith, of any sort. I do not believe in any deity because I have seen no scientific evidence to support one’s existence. I think that the big bang is the most compelling explanation for the universe proposed so far, and so one could say I have more faith in it than I do in other theories, but I do not believe in it blindly, and as soon as there is another theory with more scientific evidence to back it up, I will be more inclined to believe in that.
Scientific evidence, which can be tested repeatedly and give consistent results, or follows logically from things that can be tested, is all I will believe in, and never will you hear me claim that something is infallible, inevitable, or 100% truth.
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