Please help: I struggle mightily with hell

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as He said about Judas; it would be better for that man if he had never been born.
but equally, for someone in heaven it is better that they had been born.
 
If someone wants to be separated from God, then why would separation from God be regarded by those persons as a punishment?

The Catechism says that this separation is the chief punishment of Hell, not that it is the only punishment. As I understand it, after the resurrection of the dead, everyone’s soul, including those in Hell, will be reunited with their bodies. That implies the existence of a place as well as physical torments. That place and those physical torments cannot exist without God sustaining that existence.
you are quite right. hell is in God too. if you can imagine a massive rectangular block of blackness, like a giant thick book lying on its side. that is the place of hell. there are no windows or doors and curiously it is not even physically solid either. those outside hell can see in to the darkness. but those inside cannot see anything but the darkness, nor hear anything but their wailing and complaints. nor feel anything but anguish and fear. nor know anything but darkness, confusion about where they are, and oppression at their state and sense of being lost forever.
i can still see a woman wandering through the darkness, her mouth twisted in anguish and feeling with her arms through the black empty space, saying things to herself like ‘this is awful’ as she tried to find a way.
this image was brought to you from a dream from many years ago which i’ve just remembered after reading your post. i was brought by an angel, [no wings, just kind], to stand outside it in the light and look into the place of hell.
 
👍

I like this. However, for me, the searching takes me farther away, somehow. The more I read and try to discern, the more ‘system overload’ I feel.
Struggle, is this true at all for you?
A Spiritual Guide would be of great help to you. They can help guide you thru the confusion the great deceiver creates. The journey is not easy, Jesus never said it would be, and thru suffering a greater love found. You come fuller into the love of God as your journey continues, don’t be afraid to ask help of the Holy Spirit, and a trusting spiritual guide. Meditations, retreats, these are gifts of the Holy Spirit, continue to " Seek, you will find". Only thru our suffering and struggles is a more complete love of Jesus found. As in life, love doesnot just happen we have to work at it.You are closer than you think…
 
Struggle, you expressed thoughts that I entertain myself and that I’m sure many people, Catholics or not, entertain as well. Here’s the thing: to the best of my knowledge, you’ll never find a satisfying answer to your questions. All you’ll get is circular reasoning or platitudes. Hell doesn’t exist out of necessity but because God chose to create it. No one will ever convince me that a human being who has not asked to be born and can’t bring himself to love or trust God, that it’s perfectly acceptable for this person to suffer atrocious torments for ever and ever. I’m not talking about Charles Manson or Anton Lavey or Aleister Crowley here, but decent people who don’t acknowledge God. Life IS a raw deal for many. Given the choice, I’d choose to not exist.
When I’m weak, that’s when I’m strongest in God. Why, because he is with us.
 
Dear friends,

IHow can God live with Himself knowing souls are suffering in hell forever?
-struggleMt71314
God is at peace…knowing that things play out according to their nature: fire burns, ice is cold, water is wet…etc. Does Hell bother Him? I suppose it does not disturb Him that nothing will forever return to nothing. But, please remember…“My Word will not return to Me void”…God will achieve His purpose.
 
Dear friends,

… (Snip)
I say this pretty much because of the existence of hell. Why would He create when He knows that He will ultimately put His creatures at risk of going to hell. Not only at risk, but at great risk, as we know that the Lord said that it is a hard and narrow road that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Obviously I’m so worried and frustrated about this issue, because I feel at major risk to go to hell under these conditions.

… As far as I’m concerned, even if 1 person ends up in hell, God’s creation is ruined. It doesn’t matter to me that if someone is in hell, it was their choice. Mainly because I find it hard to believe that someone would ever choose a life of eternal torment over eternal bliss. I don’t believe that anyone would EVER make such a choice. To me, it seems that everyone should go to Heaven since everyone in this world desires the good,??

… I can’t imagine a parent ever wanting to put their child into a severely dangerous situation, even to the point of perhaps not having children so as to not put their potential child into a harmful situation. I simply feel that God has allowed us into a very dangerous situation, without asking us if we’d like to be born or not…

Another thought that just entered in:

How can God live with Himself knowing souls are suffering in hell forever?

God bless you.

-struggleMt71314
This is probably not going to help you much, but I’ve written ad infinitum that the night my own father died, he materialised in my room. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end, he gave this almighty scream and then disappeared.

I believe he’s in hell. He even said at one stage “I always was doomed! I didn’t have any choice!” I argued back (I was an atheist at that time incidentally) saying “That can’t be right!”

To which he replied, “Oh, it’s right all right! You can see that from here!”

Later on however he also admitted “I was WILLING!” I’d say, very willing.

Now I’ve had other experiences which indicate God knows very well what’s going to happen, and indeed can exert His Will without us being aware of it, and very subtly too. For examples of what I’m talking about go to the following reference and read posts #22 and #23.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10335723#post10335723

There are a couple of things which came out of this apparition. The first was the sheer terror he displayed just before he disappeared. It was also clear something was coming for him.

However he was also “WILLING” to be cruel, bad tempered, etc. I had a firearm pointed at my head at one stage (loaded as far as I know), was punched coming out of the shower with no warning, was spat at once, hit from behind a number of times, and was the butt of endless put-downs. He basically admitted the night he died that he did it deliberately.

Now he had 25 years to do something about his temper and stupid cruelty, and did nothing. Did he “desire the good?” I don’t think he did. And I can tell you now, that while I might feel quite sorry for him if I were to see him now, I wouldn’t want to spend eternity with him if he hadn’t changed. I have no desire to live for eternity with a bad tempered, vindictive, cruel, stupid, ridiculing mongrel (and he described his behaviour himself as “I’ve been an absolute mongrel to you!”).

SInce he had no intention of changing his behaviour, then I suspect he’s in a part of hell where they’re all bad tempered, vindictive, endlessly critical etc. And of course such an attitude could only get worse and worse and worse in an environment like that. Yet in one sense he got what he wanted. Whether he wanted what he got is another question.

As for God not being able to “live with Himself”, He doesn’t seem to be having much trouble with that as far as I can see. He’s alive and well, rest assured.

This is not a new question. Even my wise old Protestant pastor once commented to me “I sometimes wonder if it’s true (Ie. God is love). He seems to write people off pretty easily.”

However he also made the comment, “Love and judgement are two sides of the same coin.” God must judge the way we treat other people in particular (and animals) if He’s going to make any claim to be just, and that’s what it boils down to. As Christ said, the commandments pin on just two - Love the Lord etc. and Love your neighbour. That’s the ten commandments in a nutshell. Which is why Justification by Faith Alone is a distortion of the Biblical teaching. It’s a bit more involved than that. When Paul was writing about “works”, he had come from a Pharasaical background himself. The “works” he was talking about weren’t about how you treated your neighbour, but all the petty fogging rules the Jewish hierarchy thought were necessary for salvation, as well as the temple sacrifices etc.

I also once had a bit of a brief vision when I was younger where “Someone” said “What is Love?” If we can answer that in the divine sense, we’ll probably understand how “Love” can allow and even plan for Hell.

As Catholics of course we also believe in Purgatory, which Protestants don’t. There may be more people there than we think, and if they’re in Purgatory, they’ll get to heaven eventually.

As for yourself, if you’re worried about Hell, then you’re probably also watching your own behaviour. Which means you’ve got a pretty good chance of not going to hell. It’s the person who doesn’t even give it a thought who’s in particular danger.

Yet even my father admitted, “Oh, it’s RIGHT, all right! You can see that from here!”

Somehow or other, we’ll recognise it’s right and just, even if we’re condemned. We’ll know to the core of our being the judgement is just. We’ll also know, with appalling certainty, that there is no hope of appeal.
 
Struggle,
Be not afraid! Hell is mortal sin taken to the infinite by an unrepentant death. Remember, you are a Catholic now. You have the Sacraments at your disposal. A Catholic that goes to Hell is a Catholic in love with death. If you keep close to the Sacraments and do your best, following Christ’s Church, you’re golden.
 
Thanks very much everyone for your responses. Reading my original post again makes me wish I could have explained my point better, but it seems that many people understood what I was saying.

I guess the highlights of reading all 27 responses was the moment where someone quoted Padre Pio as saying he believes not many will go to hell (which deeply surprised me to the point that I’m not sure if Padre Pio even said that). Which was responded to by linking to a page where a solid number of saints were reinforcing that few are saved and many are damned.

Unfortunately, that sort of stuff only fuels my fire againt God now. Of course, I’d like it to fuel my fire for God and lead me to live the Christian life, regardless of how terrifingly difficult it seems to be. But I don’t see that happening.

There is a lot to be scared about, for me.

I guess I’d love to end my post by stating my original point in a new, much more concise way, and I’d be happy if people would like to continue the discussion, but if not, that’s okay too.

My concluding point:

If God knows that He will ultimately not accomplish His purpose of bringing every single soul with Him into Heaven, why create the world in the first place? And put many souls in danger of living in a terrible state, forever. I just don’t get it.

Thanks again everyone. Have a great day. 🙂
 
This is a topic that I have struggled with a lot too, and I don’t really have the answer but maybe it helps to think about the nature of hell. People say that everyone who goes to hell freely chooses to go there and I always thought that couldn’t possibly be correct because who would choose that over Heaven? But think about it this way. I assume that you, like me, probably have a nice life that’s usually comfortable and enjoyable. Now assume you die and are faced with God and the Beatific Vision and Heaven, which is supposedly perfect happiness and union with God. But you don’t make it into Heaven and instead are sent back to this life, the only difference being that now you have no hope of salvation. Now you think this life is a good life, definitely much, much better than hell. But after seeing infinite happiness and goodness, this life would necessarily be hell because it is only finitely good and happy and you have to spend an eternity in it.

People still might ask why anyone would still choose to go to hell even if it’s true that it’s not as bad as we’re imagining it being. Well maybe the conflict is really between love of self at the expense of God/others vs. love of God/others at the expense of self. People that end up in hell value themselves too highly and thus are confined to an eternal existence of seeking to satisfy an infinite longing in themselves with finite things and will necessarily be eternally unhappy because such a longing cannot be fulfilled with finite things. A lot of people probably would choose this because self-sacrifice isn’t very appealing and it’s very difficult to trust that emptying yourself to receive the love of others is better than self-satisfaction. After all we know that we can immediately please ourselves with finite things, but that doesn’t last long. Maybe it requires too much of a leap of faith to empty yourself by giving your love so as to receive the love of others. We say that we’d choose God over hell but then continually make decisions everyday that are self-serving and not sacrificial, myself included. 🤷

As for God creating people knowing some or many would end up in hell may not be a strike against God. After all He gave us a lifetime to choose Heaven and we freely chose to please ourselves over others. He’s only giving us what we asked for. It seems that one of the marks of being a good parent is knowing when to let go of the children, even though they’re making the wrong decision.

This doesn’t completely satisfy me but maybe it’s helpful to think about. Maybe I’m just crazy and have got all this wrong. 😉

This all reminds me of that episode of the Twilight Zone with the bank robber that gets shot and killed by police during a robbery. He wakes up in this wonderful place where he gets absolutely everything he’s always wanted: beautiful women, millions of dollars, power over authority figures, popularity, a gorgeous mansion and incredible wealth, etc. But a few months later he’s incredibly bored and isn’t satisfied anymore because everything is too good all the time. He tells his “guardian” that there must be some mistake: he doesn’t belong in Heaven and wants to go to the other place. The guardian laughs and says “what gave you the idea you’re in Heaven? This is the other place.” 😉
 
Hell has nothing to do with belief,except your willingness to resign in the face of a logical fallacy,the appeal to force.*
The evidence for God is extraordinary.Keep thinking! Your devotion is evidence of your interest in and love for God.And that is more important then intellectual sophistication.
  • I will hit you ( or my bigger father will) if you do not agree with me.
 
the following from padre pio:
(hopefully ease a bit of your fears)

“I believe that not a great number of souls go to hell.
God loves us so much. He formed us at his image. God loves us beyond understanding.
And it is my belief that when we have passed from the consciousness of the world,
when we appear to be dead, God, before He judges us, will give us
a chance to see and understand what sin really is.
And if we understand it properly, how could we fail to repent?”

“You will be surprised to find in Paradise souls you never expected to be there.”
I like this. It gives words to something I have always wanted to believe.
I have always thought that Hell might ultimately be for the reserved few, those who, when offered to repent - yet again - would say “no, not gonna do it…” No matter what…
Like Hilter, Hussein, Gacey, Bin Laden - ya, know, that calibre of monsters. That He gives us SO many chances to repent at various times, and some just say no…
I want to believe - still do - that most of us would take that opportunity gloriously. He loves us so much…
 
If God knows that He will ultimately not accomplish His purpose of bringing every single soul with Him into Heaven, why create the world in the first place? And put many souls in danger of living in a terrible state, forever. I just don’t get it.
If you, as a potential parent, cannot know for certain that every single one of your children will have happy, successful lives, and that none will get into trouble, why would you have kids?

Well, because, you will love your children, and will guide them the best way you can. But if they choose to destroy their lives, though you will do all in your power to stop them, in the end it is their lives, and they are responsible for it.

So it is with God. He knows that creating us is a risk. Some will go to hell. Some will go to heaven. He will do all in His power to have us choose Him, but in the end, it is exactly that — a choice. God cannot force our hand.

God does not send a single person to hell. He hates that anyone would go there. But, people would rather choose self and sin than to choose God and love. If that choice persists, without us striving to change and become better, then we deserve ever bit of punishment we experience.

I had problems with this, too. Here’s how I got around it:

Yes, hell is terrible. But, God does not desire anyone to go to hell. Further, God knows exactly the sequence of events that must occur for a person to have the most chance of coming to Him. It might take a year, or it might take all of their lives, but God will put every possibility in front of them for choosing Him. By the time they die, they must have rejected Him utterly and completely, because they have had so many chances to change and repent.

I hope Bob Crowley won’t mind me using him as an example. But, from the posts he linked to, as well as the experience he shared here, it looks like God used a very intentional sequence of events spanning over several decades to bring him to God in the end. God knew exactly what would give him the greatest possibility of choosing rightly.

it is the same in my own life, as well, and I think it is the same for every person. It is not just an accidental thing. You cannot accidentally go to hell. God will make sure of your choice, and you will have to live with your choice. But god will fight for your soul until the very last day, and this I truly believe.
 
God does not desire anyone to go to hell… …But god will fight for your soul until the very last day, and this I truly believe.
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Very well stated. Thank you
I went through a long period with this same concern. I am no longer scared, though I take nothing for granted, either. And yes, He will always fight for us. He loves us!
 
Thank you very much for your post, seeker of God. It connected with me. But I still also would like to respond to it.
If you, as a potential parent, cannot know for certain that every single one of your children will have happy, successful lives, and that none will get into trouble, why would you have kids?
Well, because, you will love your children, and will guide them the best way you can. But if they choose to destroy their lives, though you will do all in your power to stop them, in the end it is their lives, and they are responsible for it.
If a parent could ever have the certain and undeniable knowledge that the end destiny of their child’s life, should they choose to have a child, were a place of brutal torment, lasting forever and ever, I would hope that no potential parent in the world would ever want to bring that child into existence.

God has that sort of knowledge. He knows the end destiny of every soul. If He knows that a soul will ultimately choose hell, and still goes ahead and calls that soul into existence when He could have prevented them from hell by just not creating them, that seems wrong to me.

edit: P.S. And cheezey, thank you for your optimism and brightness. 😃
 
Thank you very much for your post, seeker of God. It connected with me. But I still also would like to respond to it.

If a parent could ever have the certain and undeniable knowledge that the end destiny of their child’s life, should they choose to have a child, were a place of brutal torment, lasting forever and ever, I would hope that no potential parent in the world would ever want to have children.

God has that sort of knowledge. He knows the end destiny of every soul. If He knows that a soul will ultimately choose hell, and still goes ahead and calls that soul into existence when He could have prevented them from hell by just not creating them, that seems wrong to me.

edit: P.S. And cheezey, thank you for your optimism and brightness. 😃
This might be theologically off, and I stand corrected if so, but how would God know that you were going to go to hell until and unless you were created?

Even so, God loves us. He loves so much that, though He knew that we would fall, He created us, because He knew that many would come to Him. It doesn’t really concern me.
 
This might be theologically off, and I stand corrected if so, but how would God know that you were going to go to hell until and unless you were created?

Even so, God loves us. He loves so much that, though He knew that we would fall, He created us, because He knew that many would come to Him. It doesn’t really concern me.
Thanks again for responding. 🙂

I too hesitated a bit on that first point (of God knowing your destiny before you exist), but then I remembered of that Psalm (I believe Psalm 139), where it says that God knew us even before we were born, and our days were set out for us before we existed, and God knew them perfectly, and so on. But it also makes sense because God is all-knowing and just knows that kind of stuff. If He could know about our life only until we were created, that would seem to be a limit on His limitless knowledge, which I don’t think is the case. But I am open to being wrong on that point, too.

It doesn’t seem like love to me when God is willing to just allow a soul to go to hell when it could have been prevented. Even if it is the person’s choice.
 
Thanks again for responding. 🙂

I too hesitated a bit on that first point (of God knowing your destiny before you exist), but then I remembered of that Psalm (I believe Psalm 139), where it says that God knew us even before we were born, and our days were set out for us before we existed, and God knew them perfectly, and so on. But it also makes sense because God is all-knowing and just knows that kind of stuff. If He could know about our life only until we were created, that would seem to be a limit on His limitless knowledge, which I don’t think is the case. But I am open to being wrong on that point, too.

It doesn’t seem like love to me when God is willing to just allow a soul to go to hell when it could have been prevented. Even if it is the person’s choice.
A few thoughts:

Firstly, though He would only create those who would freely choose Him, how free would this really be? Those who were not created never had the choice to make, so He essentially made the choice for them. Moreover, He only created those who freely chose Him, so really it would only be manipulative. Have you ever had someone who made decisions for you? Even if those decisions would have been better, you’d prefer to make them yourself, right? It’s not very loving if they make the choice for you.

Also, how much motivation to do good would there be in a world where everyone was going to haven? Well, hey, it doesn’t matter what I do, anyway, so I really don’t have to love God — I don’t really have to do good and avoid evil. Then we’re back in the same situation, because he’d judge us for those decisions.

If He’d only create those who would choose good even if everyone else was choosing good, too, and there was no motivation to do so, I think His possibilities would be pretty few. Maybe a handful of people would live on Earth, and I think it’d rob God of this free will thing.

It just doesn’t feel right to me. Sure it might seem cruel to “allow” people to go to hell, but really it is never His desire. But just because they will choose that, doesn’t mean He’s going to never create them in the first place. It is their choice. If they don’t have the choice, then what good is it?
 
All I’m trying to do here is prevent people from having to suffer forever. It seems like a noble cause to me (even if it may be a losing one, sadly). What you stated in your last post are reasons why what I’m proposing seems a little weird and might make God sort of manipulative and demeaning true free will. I don’t think that would be the case. I could delve into reasons why, but I feel it would make my post too long and might distract the conversation a bit. I’d rather focus on other points, like your last one:
If they don’t have the choice, then what good is it?
I think if someone has within their power the ability to choose a destiny where they will have to suffer in hell for eternity, it is much better for them to not have the ability to choose. The ability to choose is not a good thing in my opinion, because of this option to choose hell. Even if this means that the person never exists, that’s fine. Better off that then hell. Even Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had never been born. So why was he born, I’m wondering?
 
All I’m trying to do here is prevent people from having to suffer forever. It seems like a noble cause to me (even if it may be a losing one, sadly). What you stated in your last post are reasons why what I’m proposing seems a little weird and might make God sort of manipulative and demeaning true free will. I don’t think that would be the case. I could delve into reasons why, but I feel it would make my post too long and might distract the conversation a bit. I’d rather focus on other points, like your last one:

I think if someone has within their power the ability to choose a destiny where they will have to suffer in hell for eternity, it is much better for them to not have the ability to choose. The ability to choose is not a good thing in my opinion, because of this option to choose hell. Even if this means that the person never exists, that’s fine. Better off that then hell. Even Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had never been born. So why was he born, I’m wondering?
Well, God knows the bigger picture. You may not think it’d negate our free will, but I believe it would, and would like to see why you think otherwise.

Also, free choice seems to be most important to Him. He wants us to want to love Him above all.

I understand that you want to “prevent” suffering, but, well, you cannot. Only by evangelizing can you prevent it, as well as by praying for lost souls, though it is still their choice in the end. But I don’t see it as trying to prevent, because it is what it is. YOu can’t really argue with God’s choices, because His intellect is infinitely superior to yours. I’m not speaking of you specifically, but it is arrogant for us to think we can question God’s choices. He knows why He has done what He has done, and we can only guess.

So, if you don’t want souls to suffer, pray for their conversion, and reach out to them. That’s what we were commanded to do. 🙂

Edit: I’ve been down this road. I know the path of questioning. I don’t want to say not to question, but you are resisting the idea of hell so much, that I think you aren’t as much questioning as trying to find reasons why it should not exist. I know, because I was there. I said I was open, but I was not. Only after three years of being apart from the Church did I recognize the truth of hell, and that because i believe that the life I led for those three years was a foretaste of hell, if I kept up my apostasy. And, if I died during that time, I would have deserved every bit of what I got. It was a miserable time, lacking any kind of grace.

So, I know just an infinitesimal bit of what hell is like, because my life reflected that state. Now, I am trying to reverse that by God’s grace.

Sometimes we just have to submit, and understand that God is all loving, but also all-just, and that He knows what He is doing. And again, all we can do is pray.
 
I’ll try to explain why I think that it would not negate our free will. If God knows that some souls will indeed freely choose to love Him, I simply don’t see how that would negate their free will just because God has the ability to know all things. For example, God knew that the saints would freely choose to love Him before they ever even existed. No one argues that the saints were not free. I hope this is making some sense to you. I could delve even deeper I suppose, but it seems sort of clear to me. But I understand why you may be having this difficulty.

I am looking at the bigger picture a little. Because I realize that souls are already in hell. Like I said in my first post, we know the devil and his angels are there. At the very least, I’m trying to make the case that it’s not fair that they have to suffer there forever.

I understand the difficulty of arguing with God’s choices. And I don’t think that it’s arrogant to try and make a good point, one that would, if enacted, lead all souls to heaven and none would have to suffer in hell.

I understand that ultimately, I should, in a perfect world, submit to God and recognize that even if I feel that I have a good point, that God is right, I’m wrong, He has the plan and understands what He’s doing. Believe me, I’ve tried to make that move. It hasn’t worked out very well. For now, I’m stuck here, wishing that this could be a better world, where all can share the beatific vision. And you already know by now that I say, if that’s not possible, well then, please God don’t go ahead and create the world anyways, or at the very least, don’t create me.

edit: in response to your edit: I hear what you’re saying, and if I haven’t said it already I really do appreciate you taking the time to converse with me tonight. I understand that the path of questioning may not be the best one, but to be quite frank, it is an easier one than trying to actually live a Christian life and be in good standing with God. This questioning serves as a sort of crutch. I happen to feel that I have a good point. And these questions were not desperately manufactured by me to serve as a crutch, but they naturally arose just from me living my life. Believe me, I take this question to prayer all the time. I don’t think God is too willing to answer, for reasons that I may or may not know. All in all, it is what it is. I guess I hope that maybe I too can be gently led back to God’s grace and protected by God’s mercy at all times.

I hope that we can continue our conversation tomorrow, perhaps by PM if you feel more comfortable that way, but either way, if you choose to end the conversation here, I say thanks again and I hope to see you in Heaven one day. 🙂
 
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