Please help: I struggle mightily with hell

[seeker_of_God]

I’ll try to explain why I think that it would not negate our free will. If God knows that some souls will indeed freely choose to love Him, I simply don’t see how that would negate their free will just because God has the ability to know all things. For example, God knew that the saints would freely choose to love Him before they ever even existed. No one argues that the saints were not free. I hope this is making some sense to you. I could delve even deeper I suppose, but it seems sort of clear to me. But I understand why you may be having this difficulty.

I am looking at the bigger picture a little. Because I realize that souls are already in hell. Like I said in my first post, we know the devil and his angels are there. At the very least, I’m trying to make the case that it’s not fair that they have to suffer there forever.

I understand the difficulty of arguing with God’s choices. And I don’t think that it’s arrogant to try and make a good point, one that would, if enacted, lead all souls to heaven and none would have to suffer in hell.

I understand that ultimately, I should, in a perfect world, submit to God and recognize that even if I feel that I have a good point, that God is right, I’m wrong, He has the plan and understands what He’s doing. Believe me, I’ve tried to make that move. It hasn’t worked out very well. For now, I’m stuck here, wishing that this could be a better world, where all can share the beatific vision. And you already know by now that I say, if that’s not possible, well then, please God don’t go ahead and create the world anyways, or at the very least, don’t create me.

Having the knowledge of what people will choose is one thing, but acting on that knowledge so that He only creates those who would choose Him…well again, that seems manipulative and really undermining free will, since those who were not created never got to choose.

C.S. Lewis, I think it was, said that the door to hell is locked from the inside. They know the sins they committed, but even knowing, they would not change it. You wish the beatific vision for them, but they do not want it, if it means submitting to God’s will.

There’s nothing to enact. God has already made the perfect choice, and no amount of convincing is going to have Him say, “Oops, you’re right. I’ll change that now.”

Satan and the demons do not get a choice, because their knowledge is such that they could not gain any additional knowledge that would change their decision. Their decision is eternal, and so their punishment is eternal. We as humans get many choices, until we die, because we have extremely finite knowledge.

 

[struggleMt71314]

since those who were not created never got to choose

I just can’t imagine anyone being unhappy that they didn’t get to be alive so that they could have the free will to ultimately choose hell and be miserable forever. I say, so what, if a minor violation of free will is what it takes to save souls from going to hell, I think that’s a price worth paying. What I don’t think is a price worth paying is that many souls will go to hell so that a few souls can enjoy heaven.

They know the sins they committed, but even knowing, they would not change it.

Maybe they would not change it simply because it’s very difficult to face one’s own sinfulness and truly and fully repent. I simply find it hard to believe that one could desire separation from God, knowing that it will be misery for eternity. I don’t think any person would make that choice. Of course, we are sort of entering into the realm of speculation here, but I’m just not resonating with these sentiments that souls would actually forever cling to their misery rather than just accept God’s offer of eternal bliss. Maybe, like I said, this is an issue of human weakness rather than true human choice. And I don’t think that’s fair.

There’s nothing to enact. God has already made the perfect choice, and no amount of convincing is going to have Him say, “Oops, you’re right. I’ll change that now.”

I don’t like to say it so directly, but I simply feel that God hasn’t made a perfect choice. Souls suffering in hell when they could have been not created doesn’t seem perfect to me.

And you’re right, He will not likely change His mind because of me, but I do have a shred of hope that that might be possible. Or at least some other option.

Satan and the demons do not get a choice, because their knowledge is such that they could not gain any additional knowledge that would change their decision. Their decision is eternal, and so their punishment is eternal.

Once again I’m finding it hard to fathom that an angel would ever make such a choice. It seems impossible. But I suppose it is possible if it happened. sigh This is what makes it so frustrating. When it just doesn’t make sense, yet, boom, it happened. And there’s nothing I can do about it, even if it seems so very, very wrong.

 

[seeker_of_God]

I just can’t imagine anyone being unhappy that they didn’t get to be alive so that they could have the free will to ultimately choose hell and be miserable forever. I say, so what, if a minor violation of free will is what it takes to save souls from going to hell, I think that’s a price worth paying. What I don’t think is a price worth paying is that many souls will go to hell so that a few souls can enjoy heaven.

God creates us with free will. No violation of free will is acceptable.

Maybe they would not change it simply because it’s very difficult to face one’s own sinfulness and truly and fully repent. I simply find it hard to believe that one could desire separation from God, knowing that it will be misery for eternity. I don’t think any person would make that choice. Of course, we are sort of entering into the realm of speculation here, but I’m just not resonating with these sentiments that souls would actually forever cling to their misery rather than just accept God’s offer of eternal bliss. Maybe, like I said, this is an issue of human weakness rather than true human choice. And I don’t think that’s fair.



I don’t like to say it so directly, but I simply feel that God hasn’t made a perfect choice. Souls suffering in hell when they could have been not created doesn’t seem perfect to me.

What I’m hearing is that you don’t like God’s choice, and you think you could do it better. It’s absolutely false that it isn’t “fair,” because God is infinitely and perfectly just. Just because you cannot see that in your current blindness does not mean it isn’t true. And I don’t say that as an insult — we are all blind to one degree or another.

And you’re right, He will not likely change His mind because of me, but I do have a shred of hope that that might be possible. Or at least some other option.

Once again, your theology is a bit off. God cannot change His mind. He is perfect, and to change His way of doing things because someone said it wasn’t fair, would mean that His original choice was imperfect, which again is impossible.

What we have to do is reconcile our feelings about reality with what reality actually is. The reality is that hell exists, and that some people go there, as well as the devil and all the demons.

Once again I’m finding it hard to fathom that an angel would ever make such a choice. It seems impossible. But I suppose it is possible if it happened. sigh This is what makes it so frustrating. When it just doesn’t make sense, yet, boom, it happened. And there’s nothing I can do about it, even if it seems so very, very wrong.

You are trying to put yourself in God’s position, which you cannot do.

If you don’t think Satan would make that choice, then why is he still? He is daily trying to tempt people away from God and deeper into the world. He knows the consequences, and is already experiencing them, but chooses to do so anyway.

 

[struggleMt71314]

God creates us with free will. No violation of free will is acceptable.

I still don’t believe that it’s a violation of free will. But I conceded that point just to make a point. But I understand what you’re saying.

But I don’t think God is as rigid as your statement is.

What I’m hearing is that you don’t like God’s choice, and you think you could do it better. It’s absolutely false that it isn’t “fair,” because God is infinitely and perfectly just. Just because you cannot see that in your current blindness does not mean it isn’t true. And I don’t say that as an insult — we are all blind to one degree or another.

I know it sounds arrogant as you said, but I can’t really help but think it. In my proposition, no one goes to hell, and everyone gets to either go to heaven or remain “blissfully” nonexistent. And it all seems very plausible. I would hope most people would at least concede that it would be nice if what I’m saying were right, even if they want to concede, rightly so, that this just isn’t the way it is and so they still accept God’s way over mine. I understand that move, which I believe is the one you’re making, and like I’ve said I hope to successfully make that move at some point, but I feel like this is some unsettled business that I should at least explore first. I wish God could take my questioning and do something cool and positive with it and help me out of it or something, but I strongly get the sense that He doesn’t appreciate it at all and will just almost ignore me until I decided to finally let go of it.

Sure I may be blind to a certain degree, but I have enough vision to see that there’s something horribly wrong with this picture.

Once again, your theology is a bit off. God cannot change His mind. He is perfect, and to change His way of doing things because someone said it wasn’t fair, would mean that His original choice was imperfect, which again is impossible.

What we have to do is reconcile our feelings about reality with what reality actually is. The reality is that hell exists, and that some people go there, as well as the devil and all the demons.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that it seems very much like God’s way of doing things is terribly wrong, even immoral, if I may dare to say. Yet, on the other hand, He is God, I’m not, so I must be wrong. I hope by now you can see my frustration with this.

I guess my frustration, at least in part, is due to the appeal to God, which you made numerous times in your last post. “Maybe you have a good point,” you might say (or not say), “but God is God.” This is the sort of thing that atheists tend to find most annoying and illogical (to them). I see the point, but it still sucks as a creature of God that I can never know something so intensely important to me and just have to bow down to God the Creator and blindly worship even if I disagree. It just seems like there could be so many better options. But, again, I’m running in circles because this can’t be the case. I guess I’m just saddened by this situation, to say the least. I hope you understand where I’m coming from.

You might resonate more with my position, to be frank, if you were more worried about your salvation like I am. I’m not wishing that you would be in that boat, of course. But as I said even when I try to cast this all aside and move on, I inevitably, in moments of weakness, give in and get discouraged and read the saints who are saying consistently that many go to hell while only a few make it to heaven, as someone linked to in this very thread.

I guess there’s 2 points that may be worth exploring if you’d like to continue. That is annihilation and the narrow road.

What if God annihilated our souls if we fail to make it to heaven (as in we no longer exist)? We still have the free will, we just don’t have to deal with hell. I already know this is not what God does, sadly, but maybe it’s worth touching on briefly.

And the second dimension of my argument states that not only is their heaven and hell, but that God makes it hard to get to heaven and easy to get to hell. Why not the other way round, or something?

I see that this may be reaching an ending point in our discussion. We’ve gotten to that bare bone of it. I have to put my grudge down and accept God’s perfection in the end, no matter how good of a point I think I’m making. I just think that’s terribly sad, and not to mention a difficult move that I’ve already failed to do many times.

Not to get all personal and sappy now, but I thought I’d end it off that way. If you’d like to continue, I’m open to hear what you have to say and might respond, but we’ll see.

I’m also open to anyone else’s take on this, especially relating to me and seeker’s discourse, but it’s up to you of course.

I thank you again, seeker, for this.

 

[seeker_of_God]

I still don’t believe that it’s a violation of free will. But I conceded that point just to make a point. But I understand what you’re saying.

But I don’t think God is as rigid as your statement is.

We’ll leave this go for now just to be able to respond to some other points.

I know it sounds arrogant as you said, but I can’t really help but think it. In my proposition, no one goes to hell, and everyone gets to either go to heaven or remain “blissfully” nonexistent. And it all seems very plausible. I would hope most people would at least concede that it would be nice if what I’m saying were right, even if they want to concede, rightly so, that this just isn’t the way it is and so they still accept God’s way over mine. I understand that move, which I believe is the one you’re making, and like I’ve said I hope to successfully make that move at some point, but I feel like this is some unsettled business that I should at least explore first. I wish God could take my questioning and do something cool and positive with it and help me out of it or something, but I strongly get the sense that He doesn’t appreciate it at all and will just almost ignore me until I decided to finally let go of it.

Sure I may be blind to a certain degree, but I have enough vision to see that there’s something horribly wrong with this picture.

No, my position is that God’s choice on this is perfect, as are all of His other choices. If I do not understand a point, I concede my own ignorance, for my knowledge is like a grain of sand compared to His. And I pray for understanding of such issues. Though that’s not to say that right now, any such issues exist for me, but this is how I would respond, recognizing that I am merely a creature — a created being.

[bibledrb]Romans 9:14-29[/bibledrb]

But, I’m concerned that you think God will just ignore you. He is not upset at you. But He wants you to come to Him — to love Him as He loves you.

Again, I, also, used to think there was something horribly wrong with this picture. I left the Church for two and a half years over it. But in the end, I had to concede that I was wrong and God was right. As a created being, it is my duty to submit to God and to the Church, which Christ instituted for our salvation.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that it seems very much like God’s way of doing things is terribly wrong, even immoral, if I may dare to say. Yet, on the other hand, He is God, I’m not, so I must be wrong. I hope by now you can see my frustration with this.

I guess my frustration, at least in part, is due to the appeal to God, which you made numerous times in your last post. “Maybe you have a good point,” you might say (or not say), “but God is God.” This is the sort of thing that atheists tend to find most annoying and illogical (to them). I see the point, but it still sucks as a creature of God that I can never know something so intensely important to me and just have to bow down to God the Creator and blindly worship even if I disagree. It just seems like there could be so many better options. But, again, I’m running in circles because this can’t be the case. I guess I’m just saddened by this situation, to say the least. I hope you understand where I’m coming from.

The reason I’m appealing to God is because philosophically (and your thread is in the philosophy forum), God must be all-good. Nothing He chooses can be immoral.

If you’re argument was, “I don’t believe hell exists,” then I’d use different tactics, but you are saying, so it seems, “hell exists, but I don’t like it, and God shouldn’t have done it that way.” And all I can respond with is, well, He’s all-good, and all-perfect.

Ah, it was Satan’s exact position that he did not agree with God, and did not want to bow down and blindly worship. Do you see why you are in dangerous territory? Satan set himself as God, believing he knew better. The specific issue? Not your own, but that man would be so highly revered, even to be created in the image of God. It did not work out so well for him, obviously.

You might resonate more with my position, to be frank, if you were more worried about your salvation like I am. I’m not wishing that you would be in that boat, of course. But as I said even when I try to cast this all aside and move on, I inevitably, in moments of weakness, give in and get discouraged and read the saints who are saying consistently that many go to hell while only a few make it to heaven, as someone linked to in this very thread.

Are you receiving the Eucharist at least weekly? Are you attending regular confession? Are you repentant for your sins?

If so, then I’d say you’re probably good.

The reason that most do not reach heaven is because most do not care that they are sinning. Look at the world today, and tell me if it is God-centered, or self-centered. The people who do the above I mentioned are very few. People would rather look to themselves as to what is right and what is wrong.

You should not be fearful about your salvation. Avoid mortal sin, and when you commit mortal sin, confess them as soon as possible. Flee to the fortress of the Church and the sacraments, and nothing can touch you.

I guess there’s 2 points that may be worth exploring if you’d like to continue.

I’d always like to continue. I know text can come across rather harshly, but I’m interested in helping you through this, because like I said, I was there myself and like to prevent another person from going through what I did.

Continued….

 

[seeker_of_God]

That is annihilation and the narrow road.

What if God annihilated our souls if we fail to make it to heaven (as in we no longer exist)? We still have the free will, we just don’t have to deal with hell. I already know this is not what God does, sadly, but maybe it’s worth touching on briefly.

Well, here’s the argument I’ve heard about annihilation. If you are a sinner, and God annihilates you after death, well effectively your last action was sin against God. No justice was actually done, because you had the last word, so to speak.

Our decisions have eternal consequences, so eternal punishment is necessary. God will never uncreate a soul, because really this would be an evil, since existence itself is inherently and metaphysically good.

And the second dimension of my argument states that not only is their heaven and hell, but that God makes it hard to get to heaven and easy to get to hell. Why not the other way round, or something?

God doesn’t make it difficult. We made it difficult by choosing to sin. Before the fall, it was perfectly easy to follow God, because our will was in alignment with His.

It actually has nothing whatsoever to do with Him that it is so difficult. He cannot lower His standards, because His standards are perfect.

Remember that in the Genesis account, within a few generations of Adam, the whole world was corrupt, and God wiped it all out, with the exception of Noah and his family. Even so, the world returned to sin once more. The nature of sin is that it is self-centered; it does not want to consider another, especially God.

So how can it possibly be God’s fault that people are freely rejecting Him and choosing to sin over following Him? He tried to make it as easy as possible — in the Church we have innumerable safeguards, but we have to use them. If we fall, we have confession, but we have to use it.

YOu also have to remember that we have a very active agent trying to sway each and every person away from God. He can make sin look pretty pleasurable, because it is self-indulgence in the short-term, no matter the form of the sin.

Remember in Job, Satan’s contention was that no man would choose to follow God if no good came out of it. So, all good was taken from Job, and yet, though with a bit of wavering, he chose God; he proved Satan wrong on that account. However, exceedingly few are like him, so in a way he was right.

[bibledrb]1 Peter 5:8-9[/bibledrb]

I see that this may be reaching an ending point in our discussion. We’ve gotten to that bare bone of it. I have to put my grudge down and accept God’s perfection in the end, no matter how good of a point I think I’m making. I just think that’s terribly sad, and not to mention a difficult move that I’ve already failed to do many times.

Not to get all personal and sappy now, but I thought I’d end it off that way. If you’d like to continue, I’m open to hear what you have to say and might respond, but we’ll see.

I’m also open to anyone else’s take on this, especially relating to me and seeker’s discourse, but it’s up to you of course.

I thank you again, seeker, for this.

Well, I am always willing to continue, so the ball is in your court.

I know it is difficult. Have you tried praying about this? He will take the burden from you if you are willing to let go of it.

A friend of mine was in a bad spot a little while back. She was using Tarot and such. I was talking to her, expressing the evils of what she was doing. One day, she got so fed up with God, she screamed at Him. She said, “Fine, if you want me so badly, you have 30 days to get to me.”

That very same night, something happened that convinced her. God did not need 30 days; only one single night of willingness.

Can you give that same willingness?

I hope it’s OK to link to the testimony, but it is truly moving: To Know Love

 

[struggleMt71314]

I read everything you wrote, including the scripture (the first one being particularily helpful), and I will try to read that testimony when I get a chance, but what I’d like to focus on out of it all is the following (not to single out and pick apart and attack just one small section of your post, but I feel I’d like to focus here):

Are you receiving the Eucharist at least weekly? Are you attending regular confession? Are you repentant for your sins?

If so, then I’d say you’re probably good.

This is my problem. This sort of mentality is just something I have been strongly led to believe is not true. The Christian life involves much more than this. Do you really think what you just described there is the narrow, hard road Christ described? Is this all that the saints did? One thing that can be said in your defense is that you did mention repentance, which is not at all easy. But I just got the sense that you were suggesting something easy here by saying, “Just receive the sacraments often and repent often and ur good.” As if that’s easy. If you think that’s easy than it probably isn’t the Christian life, which Christ said would be a hard road.

Another point to focus on (again I don’t want to pick you apart here, but), is you saying, “I’d say you’re probably good.” Well, to use some of the logic you’ve been using on me, I don’t think that your views of what it means to “be good” and be secured of your salvation are necessarily the right ones. What God has in mind for you in how He wants you to live as a follower of His Son can be totally beyond what you’re thinking right now. And I don’t want to single out this statement of yours and say that, “This is the way you think,” because you may have other thoughts obviously. But going from what you wrote there, I think I take issue with that.

I’ve already mentioned that I pray about this pretty much daily. I was willing to let go of this many times, and I believe I did, but to no avail. Maybe I thought I let go but never did, but I’m not sure what else I’m supposed to do. Ultimately I end up failing every time, even though I try to focus on trusting in God’s mercy and whatnot. Christ told us it would be a hard road, the fact that I give up easily is only a testament to that. Even if God lifts this burden from me, it will only be to place the Cross firmly on my shoulders. That’s probably an even harder burden. I know Christ said that His yoke is easy and burden light, but as I said in my original post, I think it will still be hard. And it’s not easy to walk a hard road, that goes without saying.

But anyways, if anything try to focus more on my response to your point about “being good” with God than the part about how I pray and try to let go of my grudge. If the conversation takes this sort of a turn and we discuss more about the difficulties of Christian living, I think I would like to continue. I think we’re past discussing more of the other stuff. I should be on later at night to follow up should you feel you’d like to respond.

 

[seeker_of_God]

This is my problem. This sort of mentality is just something I have been strongly led to believe is not true. The Christian life involves much more than this. Do you really think what you just described there is the narrow, hard road Christ described? Is this all that the saints did? One thing that can be said in your defense is that you did mention repentance, which is not at all easy. But I just got the sense that you were suggesting something easy here by saying, “Just receive the sacraments often and repent often and ur good.” As if that’s easy. If you think that’s easy than it probably isn’t the Christian life, which Christ said would be a hard road.

I think you’re focusing too much on the difficulty of the narrow path. Yes, it is very hard.

But look, the saints are outstanding examples. And indeed, we should all strive to be saints.

But if you receive the Eucharist regularly, and go to confession, and avoid mortal sin, then the fact is that you will go to heaven. You’ll probably have some time in purgatory first — most of us will. But if you die in a state of grace, you are guaranteed to go to heaven in the end.

So yes, that is all that is required. Read the teachings of the Church if you like; what I am saying is not contrary to Church doctrine. We are not to despair about our salvation, but if we avoid mortal sin, and go to confession regularly, then we can be certain of salvation.

Now, yes, you should do more than this. But, this is the base line requirement to get into heaven. What you do beyond that will simply improve your standing with God, perhaps shorten your time in purgatory, or, if you are especially saintly, cut it out altogether.

But with you, let’s focus on the basics before we add anymore.

Another point to focus on (again I don’t want to pick you apart here, but), is you saying, “I’d say you’re probably good.” Well, to use some of the logic you’ve been using on me, I don’t think that your views of what it means to “be good” and be secured of your salvation are necessarily the right ones. What God has in mind for you in how He wants you to live as a follower of His Son can be totally beyond what you’re thinking right now. And I don’t want to single out this statement of yours and say that, “This is the way you think,” because you may have other thoughts obviously. But going from what you wrote there, I think I take issue with that.

Well, you can if you like, but the Church teaches the same thing. We know how God wants us to live, and this is exactly it. Follow the commandments, receive Jesus through the Holy Eucharist, and attend confession regularly to receive grace to overcome your sins. Then Christ will abide in you, and you will abide in Him. No one can say any different.

If you disagree, please point to some Church teaching that opposes what I just stated. Just saying that the road is hard is not enough.

It is hard because God’s standards are so different than the world’s standards. No sex before marriage, no contraception, no abortion, no putting anything before God, etc. But if you try to follow the commandments to the best of your ability, to follow the dictates of the Church, and so forth, well then you are in God’s grace, and you will go to heaven, provided you persevere until the end.

I’ve already mentioned that I pray about this pretty much daily. I was willing to let go of this many times, and I believe I did, but to no avail. Maybe I thought I let go but never did, but I’m not sure what else I’m supposed to do. Ultimately I end up failing every time, even though I try to focus on trusting in God’s mercy and whatnot. Christ told us it would be a hard road, the fact that I give up easily is only a testament to that. Even if God lifts this burden from me, it will only be to place the Cross firmly on my shoulders. That’s probably an even harder burden. I know Christ said that His yoke is easy and burden light, but as I said in my original post, I think it will still be hard. And it’s not easy to walk a hard road, that goes without saying.

Well, you don’t want me to respond to this, so I won’t. But have you tried talking to a spiritual director or any priest about this? I think you are weighing yourself down unnecessarily. As you said, His burden is light.

But anyways, if anything try to focus more on my response to your point about “being good” with God than the part about how I pray and try to let go of my grudge. If the conversation takes this sort of a turn and we discuss more about the difficulties of Christian living, I think I would like to continue. I think we’re past discussing more of the other stuff. I should be on later at night to follow up should you feel you’d like to respond.

Again, I am always willing to respond, so it is always in your hands whether the conversation continues.

I invite other feedback as well. But I’m confident that what I shared here is in alignment with Church teachings. Again, I invite any opposition to this if you can find any.

 

[vames]

Sure I may be blind to a certain degree, but I have enough vision to see that there’s something horribly wrong with this picture.

That a vast majority of people go to hell, because this is what some saints say? Saints can be wrong, too, in this respect, because they are human and NO human has ever been to heaven/hell and back. Some also said that a lot of souls will suffer hellish torments by fire in purgatory until the end of the world, too. As I said in this thread (#13), these are culturally conditioned representations. Now if we let these representations terrify us, we end up with a vision of a doomed humanity, divided between a few saved souls and a vast majority of tortured souls. And this is a vicious circle, because this can only lead us to fear God and to feel lost, unable to understand such an absurd world. But use your God-given brain instead. Our Pope did it in Spe Salvi. Padre Pio did it too. We can’t postulate anything about the afterlife, because, again, we are human and no human has ever been to heaven/hell and back. But we can hope that God is merciful. Because God didn’t tell us anywhere that the vast majority of souls will be lost and only a tiny few will be saved.

Or maybe the problem is that you prefer to concentrate on “the narrow road” instead of “my yoke is light” and “this is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you”? Let’s see: why is the road narrow?
First level: the human species. Jesus was speaking at a time when his disciples were very few; even the people of Israel was a drop in an ocean of pagan peoples; the same was true then about the incipient Christianity, until the times of Constantine. Then there was the whole history of Christianity, with schisms, heresies, wars, temptations for power and money, up to the point that “the narrow road” ended up by being translated as “only the Catholics can be saved”. But nowadays, this is only a heresy called Feeneyism. So this kind of road can be narrow only if we make it to be narrow.
Second level: our individual souls. Even in the cruel world of the Old Testament, God agreed not to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if even ten righteous people lived there. If you see yourself as a potential city before the eyes of God, do you see there “even ten righteous people”? I think you do. What about the others around you? I think the answer will be the same. But what if there’s a soul with less than “ten righteous people”? As long as we are still alive, we can repent and better our lives. This is the good news brought by Jesus. That’s why the Sacraments are for.

Or maybe some particular teachings of the Church seem to you too illogical or too hard to follow and that’s why you say it’s too hard to repent and you aren’t sure whether this or that is what God really asks of you? There are many people in such a situation. Some simply choose to follow “blindly” the teachings even if they can’t understand them, because they want to avoid hell. Others try to demonstrate that these teachings can’t correspond to the will of God and try to encourage the Church to change them. Others leave the Catholic Church and choose another church. And others stay and choose to follow their conscience at least up to a point, while praying for enlightment and trusting that God will help them to find the right way. There are people who lose their faith, but instead of giving up, they pray “God, if you exist, help me to rediscover you”. Likewise, there are people who can’t understand a teaching of the Church, but instead of despairing, they pray “God, if this is a sin, help me to understand it and to repent. And if it’s not a sin in your eyes, then enlighten the Church to understand this. May your will be done.”

 

[struggleMt71314]

to seeker of God: My reply to you will be significantly shortened and succinct given that vames has chosen to respond as well, and I’d like to focus on his response for now since he brings a fresh perspective. This is not to demean your response, which definitely had things in it I could discuss, but I think the following short response is what I’d like to ask in response to your response:

If you don’t mind, since you focused so much on what the Church teaches about salvation and all that, would you be able to show me a simple article or something of some sort that highlights what the Church’s teaching is on what one must do to be saved? I understand that Protestants say that faith alone in Jesus suffices, but that Catholics say faith as well as works flowing from faith, or even love and hope too are part of the equation. If you have time and are able.

I am already aware that Jesus responded to this question (“What must I do to inherit eternal life?”) by saying to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Perhaps that is the answer the Church gives, or the answer that suffices.

to vames: Thank you for joining in on the conversation to bring a fresh perspective. I reread your earlier response as well as your latest, and I would like to make a short response, and perhaps you can help me if you’d like to continue.

I’m not necessarily saying that many go to hell just because the saints say it. I see it in scripture and then that it is supported by the saints, who I assume would know better than any what it takes to get to heaven, or to fall into hell. So, yes, I value their thoughts very deeply and greatly. But I am open to them being wrong given the right proof of this. Trust me, I don’t want to believe that many people go to hell. I am just saddened by the fact that that seems to be what scripture says. I am of course talking about this passage:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
-Matthew 7:13,14

(Unfortunately, I couldn’t get the special bible tag thing to work. And in case no one noticed, this passage is the reason for my username. )

I understand the danger of isolating a passage of scripture and drawing conclusions from it, but I believe this is also supported by the rest of the Gospel. To carry our cross, deny ourselves, lose our life for the sake of the kingdom, love God fully above all else, repent of our sins, etc. etc… I personally find this challenging, although I still find people who look at me funny when I say that I find the Gospel very challenging.

Thanks again for your reply, vames, I hope I did justice to the effort you put into your reply with my reply. I know it’s rather short and doesn’t address everything you bring up in your response, but it addresses what I found most compelling.

Hope to hear from you again, but if not, thanks.

 

[seeker_of_God]

to seeker of God: My reply to you will be significantly shortened and succinct given that vames has chosen to respond as well, and I’d like to focus on his response for now since he brings a fresh perspective. This is not to demean your response, which definitely had things in it I could discuss, but I think the following short response is what I’d like to ask in response to your response:

If you don’t mind, since you focused so much on what the Church teaches about salvation and all that, would you be able to show me a simple article or something of some sort that highlights what the Church’s teaching is on what one must do to be saved? I understand that Protestants say that faith alone in Jesus suffices, but that Catholics say faith as well as works flowing from faith, or even love and hope too are part of the equation. If you have time and are able.

I am already aware that Jesus responded to this question (“What must I do to inherit eternal life?”) by saying to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Perhaps that is the answer the Church gives, or the answer that suffices.

What leads to hell is mortal sin:

CCC
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134

While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call “light”: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.135

The Eucharist:

The Eucharist is necessary (1) for salvation, (2) for infusing us with life, and (3) for separating us from sin and strengthening us to avoid sin.

1392 What material food produces in our bodily life, Holy Communion wonderfully achieves in our spiritual life. Communion with the flesh of the risen Christ, a flesh "given life and giving life through the Holy Spirit,"229 preserves, increases, and renews the life of grace received at Baptism. This growth in Christian life needs the nourishment of Eucharistic Communion, the bread for our pilgrimage until the moment of death, when it will be given to us as viaticum.

1393 Holy Communion separates us from sin. The body of Christ we receive in Holy Communion is “given up for us,” and the blood we drink “shed for the many for the forgiveness of sins.” For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time cleansing us from past sins and preserving us from future sins:

For as often as we eat this bread and drink the cup, we proclaim the death of the Lord. If we proclaim the Lord’s death, we proclaim the forgiveness of sins. If, as often as his blood is poured out, it is poured for the forgiveness of sins, I should always receive it, so that it may always forgive my sins. Because I always sin, I should always have a remedy.230

1394 As bodily nourishment restores lost strength, so the Eucharist strengthens our charity, which tends to be weakened in daily life; and this living charity wipes away venial sins.231 By giving himself to us Christ revives our love and enables us to break our disordered attachments to creatures and root ourselves in him:

Since Christ died for us out of love, when we celebrate the memorial of his death at the moment of sacrifice we ask that love may be granted to us by the coming of the Holy Spirit. We humbly pray that in the strength of this love by which Christ willed to die for us, we, by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, may be able to consider the world as crucified for us, and to be ourselves as crucified to the world. . . . Having received the gift of love, let us die to sin and live for God.232

1436 Eucharist and Penance. Daily conversion and penance find their source and nourishment in the Eucharist, for in it is made present the sacrifice of Christ which has reconciled us with God. Through the Eucharist those who live from the life of Christ are fed and strengthened. "It is a remedy to free us from our daily faults and to preserve us from mortal sins."35

[bibledrb]John 6:54[/bibledrb]

Continued….

 

[seeker_of_God]

Necessity of confession:

1457 According to the Church’s command, "after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year."56 Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession.57 Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time.58

1458 Without being strictly necessary, confession of everyday faults (venial sins) is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.59 Indeed the regular confession of our venial sins helps us form our conscience, fight against evil tendencies, let ourselves be healed by Christ and progress in the life of the Spirit. By receiving more frequently through this sacrament the gift of the Father’s mercy, we are spurred to be merciful as he is merciful:60

Whoever confesses his sins . . . is already working with God. God indicts your sins; if you also indict them, you are joined with God. Man and sinner are, so to speak, two realities: when you hear “man” - this is what God has made; when you hear “sinner” - this is what man himself has made. Destroy what you have made, so that God may save what he has made. . . . When you begin to abhor what you have made, it is then that your good works are beginning, since you are accusing yourself of your evil works. The beginning of good works is the confession of evil works. You do the truth and come to the light.61

Sacraments necessary for salvation:

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 “Sacramental grace” is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.

Council of Trent, 1547, Session VII
Canons on the Sacraments

Canon 1. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ, or that there are more or less than seven, namely, baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, penance, extreme unction, order and matrimony,[1] or that any one of these seven is not truly and intrinsically a sacrament, let him be anathema.

Canon 4. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification,[2] though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.

Canon 5. If anyone says that these sacraments have been instituted for the nourishment of faith alone, let him be anathema.

Continued….

 

[seeker_of_God]

On despair:

2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:

By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.

The necessity of baptism:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

[bibledrb]John 3:5[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]Mark 16:16[/bibledrb]

Lumen Gentium 14 §1-2

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

Summary, hell and who goes there?

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

Father, accept this offering

Does this help?

 

[cheezey]

seekerofGod,

if I may interject for a moment.

I also had this issue, but no longer, thankfully. But the memories linger with thought.
But what is meant by despair theologically? I have had enough issues of late to put me into despair, anguish, and a sense of being humanly lost. I know He is there, and I wonder how this will all play out to my earthly ways and end, but I have the faith and hope that He will make all well for me ultimately. I do not see my faith and hope as contrary to God’s goodness. Thinking He would never help and guide me, That would be contrary to God’s goodness.

**2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:

By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.**

 

[seeker_of_God]

seekerofGod,

if I may interject for a moment.

I also had this issue, but no longer, thankfully. But the memories linger with thought.
But what is meant by despair theologically? I have had enough issues of late to put me into despair, anguish, and a sense of being humanly lost. I know He is there, and I wonder how this will all play out to my earthly ways and end, but I have the faith and hope that He will make all well for me ultimately. I do not see my faith and hope as contrary to God’s goodness. Thinking He would never help and guide me, That would be contrary to God’s goodness.

**2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:

By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.**

Despair is to refuse to believe that you are forgiven, or to believe that salvation is impossible or so unlikely as to be practically impossible. We must focus on God’s grace and mercy as well.

Even if we still feel guilt about our sins, we have to trust that, if we’ve faithfully confessed them, and done all we could to avoid further sin and have nothing definite on our conscience, then we are in a state of grace and will be saved, given of course that we persist in this grace until the end. Of course in the meantime there will be falls, and we will have to go to confession, but if the path slopes upward, then we can be pretty sure we are going the right way.

Sometimes we feel lost; that is OK. But never feel doomed, or as though God won’t forgive you. None of these are true, but sometimes we will go through dark periods as a test of our faith.

 

[cheezey]

Despair is to refuse to believe that you are forgiven, or to believe that salvation is impossible or so unlikely as to be practically impossible. We must focus on God’s grace and mercy as well.

Even if we still feel guilt about our sins, we have to trust that, if we’ve faithfully confessed them, and done all we could to avoid further sin and have nothing definite on our conscience, then we are in a state of grace and will be saved, given of course that we persist in this grace until the end. Of course in the meantime there will be falls, and we will have to go to confession, but if the path slopes upward, then we can be pretty sure we are going the right way.

Sometimes we feel lost; that is OK. But never feel doomed, or as though God won’t forgive you. None of these are true, but sometimes we will go through dark periods as a test of our faith.

Whew!!! Thank you. I didn’t really want to regress…Like I said, He WILL take care of me somehow. I admit to being curious as to how, and that’s a challenge, but that’s different…
Again, thank you.

 

[seeker_of_God]

Whew!!! Thank you. I didn’t really want to regress…Like I said, He WILL take care of me somehow. I admit to being curious as to how, and that’s a challenge, but that’s different…
Again, thank you.

It is said that Mother Teresa felt dry for 50 years of her life. I wouldn’t worry about it so much if ou feel lost. Just pray and keep having faith.

 

[cheezey]

It is said that Mother Teresa felt dry for 50 years of her life. I wouldn’t worry about it so much if ou feel lost. Just pray and keep having faith.

I have felt like a guest on this planet my whole life of memory. .It has just been far worse for the last decade+ and not looking better…
It is odd but of course good, that I still feel that way and yet have every faith that All Shall Be Well…
And the OP’s concern was mine for many years but has left me. Thankfully. But yes, there is that “dryness.” I gotta think of another word; that doesn’t seem quite right…
Thank you.

 

[cheezey]

Struggle,
my prayers are still with you. I remember how this felt. You will say this as well soon, no doubt.

 

[vames]

Hope to hear from you again, but if not, thanks.

I am the one who needs to thank you; in my long message I was trying to answer to my own questions on this topic, as well.

To be honest, I don’t remember associating the passage about “the narrow gate” and “the road that leads to destruction” first and foremost with a warning that many people will go to hell after they die. I have always associated it with 1) us being so prone and quick to sin and to get lost, to have our minds clouded, to miss the right path; 2) the context of Jesus’ speech - his few disciples and the subsequent history of Christianity and humanity, as I said before.
Our priest used to say, when we were kids, “be like lilies among thorns” = try to do good and follow what’s right even when you see that most of the others don’t. This was the meaning of narrow vs. broad for me. It may suggest some kind of positioning oneself as a member of an elite of the righteous few, but it isn’t so; I have learned the hard way how easy it is to lose the narrow path and how easy it is to create my own hell on earth, so contemplating this was humbling enough, before even having the time to fear eternal damnation and a hell of the afterlife.

Another example of narrow vs. broad was the one with the camel that goes through the eye of a needle easier than a rich man can enter the kingdom of God; again, “the kingdom of God” is something that begins right here in this life and in ourselves, not something reserved for the afterlife - a rich man accepting the offer of Jesus, the prodigal son returning home, the five virgins bringing enough oil for their lamps; our joy and peace when we manage to help the others, receive the Eucharist, repair the consequences of our sins, bear our sufferings with dignity, contemplate God in the creation etc.
The taste of this kingdom of God, understood in this way, is sweet and addictive, so to speak, so the more you experience it, the easier is to not lose the way and the gate begins to seem not so narrow anymore. If you fall/fail again, you aren’t so prone to be discouraged anymore. At some point you cease to be too preoccupied about what you should check or uncheck from a list to ensure that you will be saved (as opposed to going to hell) and will discover “the light yoke” instead.
Furthermore, the question of dissociating or associating faith with love and good deeds (works) becomes useless, because you cease to see your life as a bag where you have to accumulate enough faith/love/works so as to be saved. This is what I learned from a really *childlike *talk between St. Therese (speaking of saints ) and a nun; I’m sure you will understand exactly what I’m trying to say by quoting it. The nun is the narrator:

I had an immense dread of the judgments of God, and no argument of Soeur Therese could remove it. One day I put to her the following objection: “ It is often said to us that in God’s sight the angels themselves are not pure. How, therefore, can you expect me to be otherwise than filled with fear?” She replied: “ There is but one means of compelling God not to judge us, and it is – to appear before Him empty-handed.” “ And how can that be done?” “ It is quite simple: lay nothing by, spend your treasures as you gain them. Were I to live to be eighty, I should always be poor, because I cannot economize. All my earnings are immediately spent on the ransom of souls. “ Were I to await the hour of death to offer my trifling coins for valuation, Our Lord would not fail to discover in them some base metal, and they would certainly have to be refined in Purgatory. Is it not recorded of certain great Saints that, on appearing before the Tribunal of God, their hands laden with merit, they have yet been sent to that place of explanation, because in God’s Eyes all our justice is unclean?” “ But,” I replied, “ if God does not judge our good actions, He will judge our bad ones.” “ Do not say that! Our Lord is Justice itself, and if He does not judge our good actions, neither will He judge our bad ones.