Please help me understand free will

[ReapReason]

So there’s a number of choices I could make. Let’s say A, B and C. It appears that I have three from which to choose, but God knows I have already picked B.

It appears to me as if I have free choice because I can choose any one, but in fact I cannot make any choice other than B. It is the illusion of free choice.

No it isn’t an illusion. The only way that would be true is to say that Gods knowledge is the cause of your choice. But God only has knowledge of your choice because “you” choose it or will choose it.Your choice would first have to be a true state of affairs before any being can have knowledge of it; otherwise it is not knowable.

 

[Giants]

No it isn’t an illusion. The only way that would be true is to say that Gods knowledge is the cause of your choice. But God only has knowledge of your choice because “you” choose it or will choose it.Your choice would first have to be a true state of affairs before any being can have knowledge of it; otherwise it is not knowable.

If I design a maze for you that limits you to a finite number of theoretical actions, and I grant myself the foreknowledge of what choices you will make, then you have no free will. It isn’t my foreknowledge that’s operative here - it’s the fact that I designed the maze and the choices.

God designed the maze that we find ourselves in now. He knows what we’re going to do. Therefore, even by the lights of religion, theology and metaphysics, we have no free will.

 

[ReapReason]

If I design a maze for you that limits you to a finite number of theoretical actions,

and I grant myself the foreknowledge of what choices you will make, then you have no free will.

You are not acknowledging what i have said. You are just making straw-men.

First of all, it does not follow that if i give you a limited amount of choices you therefore have no free will. My knowledge is either a cause of your actions or they or not.

If i am non-physical and transcendent of time, then time does not pass for me. All the time that will ever possibly be will be present to my knowledge, like looking at a map with coordinates representing physical states; simply because i am not confined by any physical dimensions or physical laws. I don’t have to wait for you to make choices to know the choices you have made. That is the reason why i know what choices “you” will make or have made, because i see that you have made them, not because i caused you to make them. My knowledge is a matter of ontological perspective, not causality.

 

[ManRay]

The only way you can understand free will in relation to god is to succumb to cognitive dissonance. Temporally speaking …i.e. time and space - Free will is defined as the ability to make a decision or do something outside of constraint. This would mean that I have the ability to do something in spite of what someone thinks they know I will do or what that want me to do. In religion of course they sidestep this, and basically create a new concept which doesn’t pertain to our reality at all. If god knows what you will do before hand - then you in effect have no ability to make a decisions contrary to gods foreknowledge. This isn’t any type of free will - if anything is falls into some loosely defined category of determinism.

 

[Giants]

You are not acknowledging what i have said. You are just making straw-men.

If i am non-physical and transcendent of time, then time does not pass for me. All the time that will ever possibly be will be present to my knowledge, like looking at a map with coordinates representing physical states. I don’t have to wait for you to make choices to know the choices you have made. That is the reason why i know what choices “you” will make or have made, because i see that you have made them, not because i caused you to make them. My knowledge is a matter of ontological perspective, not causality.

And as I said, God’s knowledge of my choices (however he comes by it) is not operative to the question of my free will.

God designed the maze, and all the possible choices one could make within it. He know what we’re going to do in advance of our doing it. However he comes by this knowledge is irrelevant. The ultimate outcome is that we lack free will.

 

[tonyrey]

*Divine knowledge does **not ***

It’s extraspecial pleading to put the creator in the same category as that which He has created…

What does it actually mean for God to be ‘outside time’ anyway? That he can see the beginning and the end and everything in between?

Precisely.

That doesn’t make the future, from our point of view, any less fixed just because God is supposedly looking in from the outside. If it’s known to be, it can’t be otherwise.

How would you prove that statement? If you are aware of what is happening does it mean it couldn’t be otherwise?

Observation does not entail coercion, compulsion, domination or causation.

 

[ReapReason]

And as I said, God’s knowledge of my choices (however he comes by it) is not operative to the question of my free will.

God designed the maze, and all the possible choices one could make within it. He know what we’re going to do in advance of our doing it. However he comes by this knowledge is irrelevant. The ultimate outcome is that we lack free will.

If knowledge of our actions is not the cause of our actions, then “you” are the cause of your actions, regardless of whether you have a limited amount of choices or whether somebody knows of them of not. As soon as you say that knowledge is not causative on events, you defeat your own argument.

For example, you cannot change anything in your past, but you still freely made those choices. For God, because of his nature, there is no past present or future, there is just that which is.

Like i said there has to be content before there can be knowledge of content.

 

[tonyrey]

And as I said, God’s knowledge of my choices (however he comes by it) is not operative to the question of my free will.

God designed the maze, and all the possible choices one could make within it. He know what we’re going to do in advance of our doing it. However he comes by this knowledge is irrelevant. The ultimate outcome is that we lack free will.

1. God designs the **possible **choices but not the **actual **choices.
2. Knowledge does not entail causation.
3. If you lacked free will your conclusions would not be yours - and therefore insignificant! A machine lacks insight.

 

[tonyrey]

If knowledge of our actions is not the cause of our actions, then “you” are the cause of your actions, regardless of whether you have a limited amount or whether somebody knows of them of not.

Like i said there has to be content before there can be knowledge of content.

 

[Giants]

1. God designs the **possible **choices but not the **actual **choices.
2. Knowledge does not entail causation.

Design + Knowledge does entail causation. And God shows up in both columns.

1. If you lacked free will your conclusions would not be yours - and therefore insignificant!

In a Universe that’s on a one way track to Heat Death, everything is ultimately insignificant. In the here and now, it’s not.

A machine lacks insight.

True, but irrelevant. We are willed by forces not our own. Our insights exist, though we owe them to a confluence of prior causes.

 

[Giants]

If knowledge of our actions is not the cause of our actions, then “you” are the cause of your actions, regardless of whether you have a limited amount of choices or whether somebody knows of them of not. As soon as you say that knowledge is not causative on events, you defeat your own argument.

For example, you cannot change anything in your past, but you still freely made those choices. For God, because of his nature, there is no past present or future, there is just that which is.

Like i said there has to be content before there can be knowledge of content.

Having knowledge of another’s future actions (however one comes by that knowledge) does not, by itself, eliminate free will. If I were in a position to know, with absolute certainty, what you were going to do tomorrow, it would only mean that I know that information. It would not insist that you don’t have free will.

What would insist on that is if I had that knowledge, plus the responsibility for the reality that find yourself in tomorrow. Which, in the lights of metaphysics, God does.

 

[Bradski]

Your concept of God is defective because even we can predict with a very high degree of probability what people will choose - unless they are insane…

What…? OK, then tell me if I’m going to go to a friend’s birthday or the office party on December 1st. I have no idea myself.

The only way that would be true is to say that Gods knowledge is the cause of your choice. But God only has knowledge of your choice because “you” choose it or will choose it.

I’m not saying that God* causes* me to choose. I’m making the choice. But there is only one that I can make. It appears as if I can pick A, B or C, but I cannot. It is predetermined.

Your choice would first have to be a true state of affairs before any being can have knowledge of it; otherwise it is not knowable.

That makes no sense. God knows what I will choose even before I know I’m going to have to make a choice. I am currently unaware of the choices I have to make tomorrow. But they have already been made. The future is there before God. It is predetermined otherwise he couldn’t see it. If the future is predetermined, then free will is an illusion.

 

[ReapReason]

Having knowledge of another’s future actions (however one comes by that knowledge) does not, by itself, eliminate free will. If I were in a position to know, with absolute certainty, what you were going to do tomorrow, it would only mean that I know that information. It would not insist that you don’t have free will.

End of story.

 

[Giants]

End of story.

I know. We don’t have free will, because God doesn’t allow for it.

I’m fine with that, since without God, we wouldn’t have free will anyway.

 

[tonyrey]

*1. God designs the **possible ***

Unsubstantiated assertion.

1. If you lacked free will your conclusions would not be yours - and therefore insignificant!

In a Universe that’s on a one way track to Heat Death, everything is ultimately insignificant. In the here and now, it’s not.

Only in a materialist’s opinion.

A machine lacks insight.

  True, but irrelevant. We are willed by forces not our own. Our insights exist, though we owe them to a confluence of prior causes.

If we are willed by blind forces not our own it is impossible to be rational.

 

[Giants]

Unsubstantiated assertion.

You should try out this religion stuff. You guys have lots to talk about.

 Only in a materialist's opinion.

And I’m a materialist. Your point?

If we are willed by blind forces not our own it is impossible to be rational.

Wrong again, as we have the same basic, shared understanding of reality, given to us by a confluence of blind forces not our own.

 

[tonyrey]

Your concept of God is defective because even we can predict with a very high degree of probability what people will choose - unless they are insane…

I didn’t specify everything.The fact remains that we can predict many choices people will make without affecting their freedom of choice.

 

[ReapReason]

I know. We don’t have free will, because God doesn’t allow for it.

You are just asserting that God does not allow it. But like you said by your own admittance here… (forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9906410&postcount=51), …Gods knowledge of what we are going to choose has no relevance to whether or not we freely chose it by our own free will.

Case closed.

So either you are trolling, or your pride won’t let you honestly see the error in your judgment. Either way you have no argument.

 

[ReapReason]

Wrong again, as we have the same basic, shared understanding of reality, given to us by a confluence of blind forces not our own.

This has got to be a joke.

 

[ReapReason]

What…? OK, then tell me if I’m going to go to a friend’s birthday or the office party on December 1st. I have no idea myself.

I’m not saying that God* causes* me to choose. I’m making the choice. But there is only one that I can make. It appears as if I can pick A, B or C, but I cannot. It is predetermined.

If God does not cause you to make choices, then whether or not your choices are free has nothing to do with God’s knowledge of them. You cannot change any of the choices in your past; does that mean you didn’t freely choose them just because thats what you were going to do? Thats obviously absurd. Of course you freely chose them and also any choices that you might make in the future.