Please help me understand the Catholic concept of man and original sin

[grannymh]

OK now she has explained that she is a new Christian and attending an evangelical fellowship. I have attempted to explain the difference between Catholic anthropology and the version she is being exposed to. I want to keep talking with her because I get the impression that she is used to very stark, polemic discussions and seems to appreciate being treated with kindness and respect for her POV.

Where is our understanding of non Christians being able to do good? She is being told if you are not a Christian it is impossible for you to do good.

Thank you granny for all your references which I shall read later when I have the time.

Regarding non Christians being able to do good. That is the basic implication in CCC 1260.

I may be older than dirt, but I have not lost curiosity and imagination.

Pick any of the references I mentioned and let your curiosity drive you. Then follow the paths of your imagination until you find a Catholic position which is reasonable.

Your approach to your friend should demonstrate that you are delighted about what you have discovered about God. You may find that you are spending a lot of time on one reference and that is good because that time is building up your own faith. You are becoming comfortable in what you believe.

You may find that you cannot answer a question. That is not a big deal. Ask for time so that you can research it. Show your confidence that within God’s love for us there is an answer. When I face a difficult situation, I like to quote John 3: 16-17. I also like to use chapter 14, Gospel of John. If there is a problem with human nature, I figure that every answer comes in some way from Genesis 1: 26-27 and CCC 1730-1732.

Treating her with kindness and respect is very important. Sometimes that means letting her talk and you omit a reply. In other words, listen with the goal of understanding. A refutation does not always have to be immediate. Trust her ability to see the goodness in what you say later. Explore her understanding to find the pearl of great price.

 

[OneSheep]

I am Catholic and talking to someone who is protestant, I’m not sure the denomination but her views on mankind seem Calvinist I think. She describes man as depraved and everything he does as evil without Christ. Is this Catholic theology? Don’t we have a higher understanding of man? I thought we see people as created good and everything made as created good but then somehow damaged by original sin. Am I wrong? I didn’t think we had a view of all humans as just depraved without Jesus but still with the goodness of our creation and in need of salvation. Please help my theology fail!

Hi!

Lots of great stuff posted so far, I still think the best answer is referring to Genesis, that God made all things good.

I am not under the impression that you are outright telling your friend that her “depravity” view is “wrong”. If this is the case, such shows that your own ability to love and accept different viewpoints does not shake your own faith, and that is a gift, understanding is a gift from the Spirit.

Don’t we all think, at times, that we are worthless and no good? We don’t meet our own expectations, we fail, we sin, we hurt others, it is all part of being human. When we are pummeled with guilt, what does the guilt “say” to us? Our guilt says we are worthless, lowly depraved. This is a great motivator to reconcile, to repent, to behave from a position of love of others rather than our own appetites.

So, if a person is feeling down about themselves in some way, the notion of depravity is going to be very attractive, right? The answer, of course, is to forgive and to accept forgiveness from God. There is an element of self-forgiveness that is important, though, right? Even if one knows that God forgives, the person still may not forgive herself, and how will she be free from the trappings of resentment if she does not forgive herself?

This is why, to me, the whole issue of perception of depravity cannot be separated from the process of forgiveness and reconciliation.

Do you see what I mean, or did I pack too much in there?

God Bless

 

[Kindness]

Hello everyone, thank you so much! Right now the approach I somehow ended up with (hopefully with Gods grace) was she also didn’t like how we value Mary. So I mentioned Luke 1:28 and how Gabriel greets Mary by saying “hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you”. I explained that as Jesus had not been conceived yet, let alone walked among us, died and risen how could Mary be full of grace if her soul was full of sin, and therefore was Jesus born of a depraved human being? I did this hopefully with love and understanding. Our relationship seems to be a good one and respectful. She thought about it for a while and said she didn’t have an answer and had never considered Mary in that way and could she discuss it with someone else and get back to me? And I said of course and I thanked her for helping me think more about my faith.

Thank you everyone and thank you granny for your wise thoughts regarding conversations like this.

I will definitely take the time to do all the reading, I just have a paper due on Monday so may not have the time to read it all but thank you for helping me think about everything. I still wonder if I have a correct idea of original sin. I like a Scientia’s explanation above who describes it as a deprivation, is it basically a deprivation of sanctifying grace - which Mary has?

fhansen thank you for your quotes from the Catechism! I will get reading.

Also Joe I love your post and you are absolutely right, I had already started to think it through and think “well that doesn’t make sense as how would any of us know what good and evil even were?” Who cares about Jesus as we are oblivious in our depravity! It takes us back to the Garden of Eden and the knowledge of good and evil.

One Sheep I definitely have talked about Genesis and how God said everything he creates is good and there was never a pause in that creation so therefore no pause in the goodness.

Thank you dear Ignatius for your patience with me!

 

[wmw]

It sounds like she’s starting to jump from objection to objection and this causes everyone to get side tracked or confused about what is well and settled between you. Maybe you should ask her for 7 at a time (since you both agree that 7 is a Godly number). So, this jumping about is diminished and you get though this in a timely fashion.

 

[Kindness]

Well no, she wasn’t criticizing me and my beliefs, she was making statements to all of us as if that is what all Christians believe. Mostly about the human condition if you are not saved. She mentioned Mary in passing. I have not attacked her, we are having a respectful discussion, I just wanted to do my best to convey the truth of our faith. She has thanked me for my attitude because the atheists were very scornful of her, she is happy to talk more and I am glad she is open to hear what I have to say. I am doing my best to treat her as I would like to be treated, with kindness and respect.

 

[wmw]

Sorry, I missed that this is a group discussion that included atheists. I know a very serious atheist (a big fan of Dalton) that came from a non-denominational background that had the same idea that all Christians hold, being that non-Christians can do nothing good. We became much closer as friends once he understood that that wasn’t Catholic theology.

He then tended to assume that I wasn’t serious about my beliefs. I had a hard time not just openly condemning him to hell in order to keep saying that atheists and Christians can work together for the common good of humanity. He saw most people as confused and disordered; thus causing much of the ill (he refused to say sin) of the world. Of course, because of the rejection of his family he had to push the point of whether he would be sent to hell according to my beliefs; I said that God alone is the judge. He is very categorical in his thinking and this is what had him thinking that if my beliefs didn’t result in my definitely categorizing him then there is something unspecific and or not serious about my beliefs. I don’t think we got much past this as he retired a few years ago at 65 and moved to Japan.

Anyway, this is all a long build up to saying that having a one-on-one with either a protestant or an atheist is hard enough, but having a round table with both is really going to be difficult. Also, being accepting of others where they are now is very important. Pope Francis is making that statement on the world stage; we need to echo that on our smaller stages. I commend you on making the few key points you have been able to present. I hope talking things through here will help you continue.

Also, I wouldn’t go down the feeling depravity so we start to believe all are depraved way of explaining things. It sounds like “I’m not depraved, but you obviously think you are.” Stick to saying positive snippets that you believe according to Catholic teaching. Group discussions are about getting in your gracious and true sound bites.