Please help me understand the Intercession of the Saints

[guanophore]

As Catholics say that since Jesus is God and Mary was His mother, therefore Mary is the mother of God. Why then, do they NOT also say that since since they say God is their Father, Mary must be their Grandmother???

Why do we only hear what they want to say but never what is logical conclusion using their logic?
.

Rumple, it would help if you were to study up on the reason why this title was given to Mary. Look up the term “'Theotokos” and the heresy to which it was directed. All the titles given to Mary are a response to heresies.

Mary being the mother of God has nothing to do with “logic”. In fact, the virgin birth of the second person of the Trinity defies logic on many levels. That is why it is called a mystery!

 

[firstmode]

Rumple, it would help if you were to study up on the reason why this title was given to Mary. Look up the term “'Theotokos” and the heresy to which it was directed. All the titles given to Mary are a response to heresies.

Mary being the mother of God has nothing to do with “logic”. In fact, the virgin birth of the second person of the Trinity defies logic on many levels. That is why it is called a mystery!

Good Answer.

 

[firstmode]

Ok Guys, how does Intercessory prayer with Angels work?

Thanks guys!

 

[guanophore]

Ok Guys, how does Intercessory prayer with Angels work?

Thanks guys!

It is interesting you should bring that up, because I was just thinking about that when I read this thread!

Remember the account in the book of Daniel where the angel talks about the spiritual warfare that went on?

Jesus said to be careful of the children because their angels behold the Father’s face in heaven. Does that not seem that the angel will stick up for them? Wouldn’t it make sense to ask the angel for help? Scripture says Of the angels he says, “Who makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire.” Heb 1:3

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Rumple, it would help if you were to study up on the reason why this title was given to Mary. Look up the term “'Theotokos” and the heresy to which it was directed. All the titles given to Mary are a response to heresies.

Mary being the mother of God has nothing to do with “logic”. In fact, the virgin birth of the second person of the Trinity defies logic on many levels. That is why it is called a mystery!

Defying logic does not imply defying coherence & consistency. The former can be an act of faith, the latter an act of foolishness.

If God can be ‘borne’, He would not be God.

 

[swariffin]

“If Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Peter, Paul and all the people who believe in God are still alive and are united with God, can they pray for us? Surely they can.”

To me this sounds like an assumption. You say surely they can, but I see no evidence. They could all be in heaven prostrated before the Lord worshiping Him day and night in bliss with the angelic choirs. That is also an assumption I can make.

When God says he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, could he not be identifying himself to Moses as that they were followers of him in life? I am making an assumption that God was and is their God, but that when God told Moses that he was their God, he was doing it for identification purposes to Moses. Again, it is an assumption, but I feel you are making assumptions too. I do not think that the sleeping, or the ones in paradise, or the ones in Heaven, or however people believe the saved have passed on are praying for us. To me it makes no sense that they would be and the evangelical world keeps making a very strong case to me that God has made it clear that the Father hears our prayers through Jesus, who is our only intercessor and who sits on the throne of our heart, and that the Holy Spirit is the comfort of God, the supernatural touch and presence, the third person of the Trinity who lives and moves within us and intercedes for us even when we do not have the words ourselves.

Thank you for your reply brother,

In Christ

Dear Brother,

Our God is a loving God. Is it an assumption? If any body united with God, will he/she a loving person also an assumption? Surely it is not. Anybody united with God, must have love toward others human, especially the one who is still alive in this world. Why? because there are in absolute happiness united with God, while we human being who is still alive in this world are not in the position of the absolute happiness. We, the living person in this world, are the one who need mercy. Anybody united with God who has no care toward other human cannot be called as loving person. Surely God would not like a selfish kind of person, and that is not an assumption.

 

[wmscott]

Thank you for all your answers

When I talk about balancing prayer to the Lord and Saints, here is a good example:

Make the Sign of the Cross and say the “Apostles’ Creed.”
Say the “Our Father.”
Say three “Hail Marys.”
Say the “Glory be to the Father.”
Announce the First Mystery; then say the “Our Father.”
Say ten “Hail Marys,” while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the “Glory be to the Father.”
Announce the Second Mystery
Say the “Our Father.”
Say ten “Hail Marys,” while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the “Glory be to the Father.”
Third Mystery
Say the “Our Father.”
Say ten “Hail Marys,” while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the “Glory be to the Father.”
Fourth Mystery
Say the “Our Father.”
Say ten “Hail Marys,” while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the “Glory be to the Father.”
Fifth Mystery
Say the “Our Father.”
Say ten “Hail Marys,” while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the “Glory be to the Father.”

After the Rosary:
HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!

V. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray. O GOD, whose only begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life, grant, we beseech Thee, that meditating upon these mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen.

Seems to me Mary is getting most of the attention in these prayers you are supposed to pray 5 to 6 days a week. Just an observation.

Jesus is ever in my forethoughts when I meditate on the mysteries of the Rosary, it is always a Christ centered Prayer. Please read what I have attached, it will change the way you think of the Rosary. I am not asking you to believe, just understand the Prayer in the correct context. Thanks

 

[wmscott]

I have a question, is there anyone here who has lost their mother or father, husband or wife? If so, then is there anyone here that thinks that their loved one is not looking down on them? Or do you feel that they are?

 

[blueadept]

Jesus is ever in my forethoughts when I meditate on the mysteries of the Rosary, it is always a Christ centered Prayer. Please read what I have attached, it will change the way you think of the Rosary. I am not asking you to believe, just understand the Prayer in the correct context. Thanks

With all that info in regards to the Rosary and the breakdown of the decades in regards to different aspects of Christ’s life, I’m surprised it didn’t mention anything about the virtues that associated with each decade that helps us to be more Christ-like. Meditating on the virtures of Christ while doing the Rosary is awesome IMO.

 

[wmscott]

With all that info in regards to the Rosary and the breakdown of the decades in regards to different aspects of Christ’s life, I’m surprised it didn’t mention anything about the virtues that associated with each decade that helps us to be more Christ-like. Meditating on the virtures of Christ while doing the Rosary is awesome IMO.

I agree this would be a good thing. However, I can not take credit for this document and I do not remember where I got it from.

 

[guanophore]

Defying logic does not imply defying coherence & consistency. The former can be an act of faith, the latter an act of foolishness.

If God can be ‘borne’, He would not be God.

I am sorry Rumpel. I did not know you rejected the incarnation of Christ.

I hope you find what you are looking for on CAF. You will be in my prayers.

 

[swariffin]

Defying logic does not imply defying coherence & consistency. The former can be an act of faith, the latter an act of foolishness.

If God can be ‘borne’, He would not be God.

And why do you think that God is a “He”?

 

[Zooey]

Are these abuses? I commonly hear these types of acts:

When someone says “My father is watching over me” or some other family member, as if the entity of their passed away Christian relative is present with them in the room or watching over them and protecting them from heaven.

People who have a picture of their passed away Father or Mother on their night stand and spend time each day praying to them and conversing and how it enriches their life knowing they are able to pray and talk with these people. If they are not canonized how can they pray to them?

Well, if I could ask my parents to pray for me when they were here on earth…Why would they stop being able to pray now that they are with the Lord? (And since they were Methodist, they won’t be officially canonized anytime soon).

Thank you for all your answers

When I talk about balancing prayer to the Lord and Saints, here is a good example:

Make the Sign of the Cross and say the “Apostles’ Creed.”
Say the “Our Father.”
Say three “Hail Marys.”
Say the “Glory be to the Father.”
Announce the First Mystery; then say the “Our Father.”
Say ten “Hail Marys,” while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the “Glory be to the Father.”
Announce the Second Mystery
Say the “Our Father.”
Say ten “Hail Marys,” while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the “Glory be to the Father.”
Third Mystery
Say the “Our Father.”
Say ten “Hail Marys,” while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the “Glory be to the Father.”
Fourth Mystery
Say the “Our Father.”
Say ten “Hail Marys,” while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the “Glory be to the Father.”
Fifth Mystery
Say the “Our Father.”
Say ten “Hail Marys,” while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the “Glory be to the Father.”

After the Rosary:
HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!

V. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray. O GOD, whose only begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life, grant, we beseech Thee, that meditating upon these mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen.

Seems to me Mary is getting most of the attention in these prayers you are supposed to pray 5 to 6 days a week. Just an observation.

Okay, if you have one $100 bill, and I offer you a hundred pennies…Are you going to take me up on the offer???

 

[Zooey]

Do you believe in the Body of Christ - one body with many members? We believe the saints are still part of the body of Christ and even though they are in heaven they are still concerned about the members here on earth. Because their love is perfected, they want the best for us in the same way that Christ our head wants the best for us. So yes, they do pray with and for us.

I just wanted to clarify that when I pray to a saint I am directing my prayer to God. I am asking the saint to join with me in prayer. So the prayer to the saint takes nothing away from God. To use another silly analogy, it’s like super-charging your prayer. I often visualize when I am praying that I have a whole group of saints and angels around me all of whom are lifting their prayers to God along with mine and their perfect prayers are making up for the lack in mine.

This reminds me of a story I sometimes tell about my grandmother. She was a devout Methodist, who had a close friend who was an equally devout Catholic.
My grandmother was forever misplacing her needle & thread when she was mending, and ( due to a childhood incident with a lost needle), she worried till she found it.
So she would call her Catholic friend & tell her what had happened, & this friend would chuckle & say, “Yes, & you want me to ask St Anthony to help out! You don’t need to be afraid of him, you could ask him yourself, you know!”
My grandmother would say, “But you see, we Methodists don’t pray that way”…and the friend would ask St Anthony, & the needle would be found. Every time.

Now, it occurs to me, that my grandmother was getting double prayers: She had both a close friend praying, & she had (via said friend) St Anthony praying as well…(No wonder those sewing needles got found, & fast !!)

So I figure, I will ask the saints myslef. (As often as not, including my dear friends & family who have gone on before). Just as I come here & ask for prayers of intercession from the folks here at CAF…My theory is, the more prayers the better…
Maybe, just maybe, when the Bible speaks about praying without ceasing, this is one way we can do that: The duties of life interrupt you & me, but the saints? Praying is what they do. It is, as it were, their “job description”.
And thank God for them!!! I need all the prayers I can get!!!

 

[cthulhubryan]

Defying logic does not imply defying coherence & consistency. The former can be an act of faith, the latter an act of foolishness.

If God can be ‘borne’, He would not be God.

Friend,

You are both right and wrong.

God is. Ego Ennui (I am). God was not born nor can he be.

All men are born and all men die.

Christ was both man AND God. He was always God but to be also Man he was born by the Virgin. It is something that seems simple at first blush but also something infinitely complicated upon reflection. It is a divine mystery that we cannot fully comprehend while only using a human mind.

 

[cthulhubryan]

Sister, thank you for your response.

“Here is one poor analogy. You are out of a job and looking for work. You keep sending out resumes but you also rely on your network of friends to help you get a job.”

I understand the analogies given to me, thank you for this. I have trouble sometimes though where logic dictates that I would have the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the Father for my requests because the trump the position of any saint. It seems that the Holy Spirit has much greater authority and power for intercession and prayer than Mary, so rather than spend 20 minutes with the Holy Spirit and then 10 minutes with Mary, I would prefer 30 minutes with the Holy Spirit in prayer as it would have much more impact, according to hierarchy. Also, Mary has a special place with Jesus and has his ear according to the Catholic faith, but if Instead I would go straight to the Father, in Jesus name, or straight to Jesus with my 30 minutes of prayer, instead of having it split up between Jesus, Mary, and Peter, then according to hierarchy and scripture, my prayers would have more impact.

Friend,

Here is my (as a protestant) impression:

It is not that I am sending my resume to a network of friends but rather I am asking a friend who works for the company to which I am applying for both a good word to the boss and some help with understanding the duties should I get the job.

In modern times one of the big fads is Modeling, where one is told to emulate someone whose success they would like to replicate. This also is a role of a saint.

When, as a father, I pray to God and ask St. Joseph to also pray for me I am doing so knowing that I cannot get a better role model of a father than that of St.Joseph. I am not really “praying to” St. Joseph though modern jargon often phrases it that way. I am praying to God and asking St. Joseph to pray with me and I am asking God to help me learn from St. Joseph’s example.

That is my take, but I am often wrong.

 

[inkaneer]

The thing about the intercession of the saints is that in protestantism there is this thing they call a “prayer circle” where one can ask fellow church members, sinners that they are, to pray for them or their cause. Catholic too have a prayer circle only ours is much larger for we not only have the prayers of members of the earthly church, sinners that they are, but we also have the prayers of the glorified church in heaven who have been perfected and totally righteous. The scriptures say that the prayer of a righteous person availeth much and who is more righteous, a sinner on earth or a saint in heaven? So in a nutshell Catholics not only have a larger prayer circle but since it contains members who are totally righteous. It is, therefore, according to scripture, a more effective prayer circle.

 

[Carlan]

Hello everyone,

Please help me understand the Intercession of the saints. I thank you in advance for your answers. I promise this is not a question to set anyone up or to start a debate. Thank you for your help.

Please help me understand the intercession of the saints as it pertains to:.

A lot to cover in your post , Firstmode.

Let me just say what the Church means by “Communion of Saints”
The kingdom of God of God is in communion with one another , we are all on One in Him, the Trinity. The Trinity, the Saints already in heaven. and the Church Militant here on Earth,we are all one, loving and praying for each other. In my opinion, that’s it in a nut shell.

Answers have many fine Apologists who can come along in here and answer your many questions more expertly than I.Thank you for joining us and may God bless you your walk with him. Peace, Carlan

 

[telmab7]

I would respond to this comment that was posted

At this point, I do not believe they can hear a word you say. (The Saints in Heaven) But I want to see how it makes sense because I would have no problem believing this.

If you are a bible believing Christian like we Catholics are to the core you will be guided by Sacred Scripture

If this Ephesians scripture here bellow does not tell you that we are One Body Of Christ both the people alive in Christ on earth and alive in Christ in heaven, archangels, angels, cherubim, and Saints that can pray with each other and for each other then I don’t know that these other scriptures I’ve provided for you will help either, you have to pray about it because remember revelation of Truth does not come from men it comes from God, that is the only way you will see it
Pray before you read these scriptures

18 For by him we have access both in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now therefore
you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the
saints, and the domestics of God, 20 Built upon the foundation of the apostles
and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: 21 In whom all
the building, being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord.
22 In whom you also are built together into an habitation of God in the Spirit.

**Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel.
Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.

Remember all the glory goes to Our Triune God Alone and all prayers offered before during and after a prayerful communication with any Saint are offered to God alone
They and we pray to the same God in Jesus name

                                       Regards,
                                               Mark**

 

[wwolverine]

Sister, thank you for your response.

“Here is one poor analogy. You are out of a job and looking for work. You keep sending out resumes but you also rely on your network of friends to help you get a job.”

I understand the analogies given to me, thank you for this. I have trouble sometimes though where logic dictates that I would have the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the Father for my requests because the trump the position of any saint. It seems that the Holy Spirit has much greater authority and power for intercession and prayer than Mary, so rather than spend 20 minutes with the Holy Spirit and then 10 minutes with Mary, I would prefer 30 minutes with the Holy Spirit in prayer as it would have much more impact, according to hierarchy. Also, Mary has a special place with Jesus and has his ear according to the Catholic faith, but if Instead I would go straight to the Father, in Jesus name, or straight to Jesus with my 30 minutes of prayer, instead of having it split up between Jesus, Mary, and Peter, then according to hierarchy and scripture, my prayers would have more impact.

For instance:

2 Corinthians 1:20 (New International Version)
20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.

James 1:5-6 (New International Version)
5If any of you lacks wisdom,** he should ask God**, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

John 14:11-16 (New International Version)
11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth,** anyone who has faith in me** will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Philippians 4:6-7 (New International Version)
6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving,** present your requests to God**. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

John 15:7 (New International Version)
7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

Luke 18:1 (New International Version)
1Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones,** who cry out to him** day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly.

John 16:23 (New International Version)
23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

Mark 11:24 (New International Version)
24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

1 John 5:14-15 (New International Version)
14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

Matthew 6:5-6 (New International Version)
Prayer
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Romans 8:26-27 (New International Version)
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, **because the Spirit intercedes for the saints **in accordance with God’s will.

Continued:

Hi Firstmode,

Reading your responses, makes me aware that you very well knew what answers you were expecting from the Catholic point of view. As a person who has a different opinion, I would say you and now a days all Christians are so lucky that we do live in the 20th Century, where we are able to freely buy any language Holy Bible.

Christianity has existed for almost 2000 years and for all these years, there were no Holy Bibles available to read and hence people ( all ) believed what was told to them and they have accepted it. Do you think that these people were Idol worshippers and will rot in Hell?

We Catholics do not pray to any Saints or consider them as Gods, nor for Mother Mary but we do ask them to Pray for us and thats why we are Catholics