Please help me understand!

[Cure]

Hello.
I was raised Southern Baptist, but am converting to Catholicism. I am learning the religion under the guidance of a priest who I respect, and is a very old-school Catholic. The church, in which I am attending, is supported by Bishop Louis Vezelis, who is said to be schismatic because he believes that the Pope in Rome has given in to modernism…which is a mortal sin in the Catholic Church.

I read a little bit about Bishop Louis in a featured article on the site written by Karl Keating called AT ODDS WITH A SCHISMATIC BISHOP.

From what I have learned in Catechism class, when a leader of the church (Pope, bishop…whoever) has gone against the laws of the church, then the people are no longer obligated to follow them. When I talk to “modernist” Catholics, they insist that no wrong has been done in Rome, or in the church, and continue to follow the Pope blindly, convinced that he would never lead them astray.

I’m really confused. WHY can people who call themselves Catholics not see that there is something wrong in the church? I was not raised Catholic…and yet I see it! How can CATHOLICS not see it? Are they so blinded by their obligation to obey, that they would follow their so-called leaders straight to hell?

 

[wolfgang]

So, you are going to become Catholic and not follow the rules of the Catholic Church? How do you propose to do this? How are you going to completely ignore the teachings of the Church and be Catholic?

The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, but you intend to ignore him?

And for the record, I do not blindly follow anyone.

I wish you the very best in your quest to become Catholic.

:angel1:

 

[Exalt]

Are they so blinded by their obligation to obey, that they would follow their so-called leaders straight to hell?

It doesn’t bother you at all that a supposedly loving God would send billions of people “straight to hell” for merely following the beliefs they were taught as children?

 

[Mrc]

I understand your concern, but don’t think about it like that. Look at the greater picture. You can’t take one supposedly wrong thing say the Church (the entire following) blindly follows it. The Church is, and always has been, under the rule of one person - and that is God. Regardless of things that might be wrong, God (Jesus, The Good Shepherd) will never lead His sheep astray. In other words, if something is amiss, it will be set right by God. If the pope does something wrong, the cardinals will sort him out.

About blindly following - I don’t think people blindly follow a teaching. They follow what they believe, and their belief concurs with the teaching of the Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church will have all the answers you want.

And I agree with wolfgang. If you’re becoming Catholic, you should understand the teaching properly and follow it. You can’t only accept a portion of the teaching.

Personally, if something bothers me, I read the Catechism, speak (discuss) with friends who are clued up, and most importantly, I first find out exactly what my concern is and its foundation and the implications.

Maybe this doesn’t answer you fully, but I hope it gives you a bit more hope and understanding.

Luke 6 vs. 40-42: “No disciple is superior to the teacher; but when fully trained, every disciple will be like his teacher. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own? How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,’ when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye.”

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[TLM08]

Hello.
I was raised Southern Baptist, but am converting to Catholicism. I am learning the religion under the guidance of a priest who I respect, and is a very old-school Catholic. The church, in which I am attending, is supported by Bishop Louis Vezelis, who is said to be schismatic because he believes that the Pope in Rome has given in to modernism…which is a mortal sin in the Catholic Church.

I read a little bit about Bishop Louis in a featured article on the site written by Karl Keating called AT ODDS WITH A SCHISMATIC BISHOP.

From what I have learned in Catechism class, when a leader of the church (Pope, bishop…whoever) has gone against the laws of the church, then the people are no longer obligated to follow them. When I talk to “modernist” Catholics, they insist that no wrong has been done in Rome, or in the church, and continue to follow the Pope blindly, convinced that he would never lead them astray.

I’m really confused. WHY can people who call themselves Catholics not see that there is something wrong in the church? I was not raised Catholic…and yet I see it! How can CATHOLICS not see it? Are they so blinded by their obligation to obey, that they would follow their so-called leaders straight to hell?

With the exception of the Traditional Latin Mass where Catholic teaching is heard as well as practiced, it’s rare in the USA to have a genuine “catholic” experience.

 

[TLM08]

It doesn’t bother you at all that a supposedly loving God would send billions of people “straight to hell” for merely following the beliefs they were taught as children?

I also find it difficult to understand how a loving God could send people who are truly seeking him to hell because they got their theology wrong.

 

[o_mlly]

…
I’m really confused. WHY can people who call themselves Catholics not see that there is something wrong in the church? I was not raised Catholic…and yet I see it! How can CATHOLICS not see it? Are they so blinded by their obligation to obey, that they would follow their so-called leaders straight to hell?

I have never been without an understanding of my salvation. My parents and other teachers transmitted and entrusted to me the framework of our two thousand-year old Catholic Christian heritage. The “entrust” component implies, I think, a covenant I have with my ancestry. The covenant requires me, in the course of my lifetime, to internalize the teaching about salvation, make it my own, but altering it only if I must. If I alter the teaching that I pass on to my posterity, I believe the covenant requires that the truth of my alterations be to me beyond a shadow of doubt. I may, and do, think about salvation with openness to new insights, but I believe the salvation I profess cannot be both “this” and “that” at the same time. The multiple theologies underpinning a soteriology are interdependent and, to remain systematic, must cohere.

My conscience, though imperfect, is my best guide to knowing God’s will. The community (Catholic Church), past and present, helps me to inform my conscience. When conscience, Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium cohere, I am at peace; when not, I remain anxious about the will of God. Grace calls me to sanctity, to build the Kingdom of God on earth. With some uncertainty, but trusting in God’s grace, I pursue my salvation by an ongoing effort to conform my conscience to the will of God, to submit my will to that informed conscience, and to submit my body and its passions (affections) to my will.

Peace,
O’Malley

 

[Cure]

I have seen pictures of John Paul kissing the Karan, being blessed by a priestess of a tribal religion, associating himself with Masons, attending a ceremony were a woman’s breast were exposed! All of these things (from what I was taught in Catechism class) were grounds for excommunication!

However, people’s attitudes were…”Well…he’s the Pope…he is infallible! He can do whatever he wants to do and it’s okay…because he’s the Pope! And the Pope is never wrong!”

THIS is my problem! THIS is why I say that there are those who follow the faith blindly!

So why…you might ask…do I want to be Catholic if I am not willing to “follow all the rules?”

The thing is…I DO believe that the Catholic Church is the TRUE CHURCH. I do believe that if the faith is followed in the way that it was meant to be, then it IS the only way to salvation! But as of now…it should be obvious to see that it is not going into the right direction!

 

[Exalt]

I have seen pictures of John Paul kissing the Karan, being blessed by a priestess of a tribal religion, associating himself with Masons, attending a ceremony were a woman’s breast were exposed! All of these things (from what I was taught in Catechism class) were grounds for excommunication!

You were actually taught in a Catechism class that kissing the Qur’an, being blessed by a member of another religion, associating with people of a Masonic organization, or attending a ceremony where a woman’s breasts were exposed were grounds for excommunication?

I find that very hard to believe.

 

[Ocarm]

Hello.

Hello there.

I was raised Southern Baptist, but am converting to Catholicism. I am learning the religion under the guidance of a priest who I respect, and is a very old-school Catholic. The church, in which I am attending, is supported by Bishop Louis Vezelis, who is said to be schismatic

Then you’re not converting to Catholicism; you’re converting to another protestant church.

because he believes that the Pope in Rome has given in to modernism…which is a mortal sin in the Catholic Church.

Inasmuch as Jesus promised that his church would prevail, the bishop is saying that the Roman Catholic church is not that church, because it hasn’t prevailed. Which makes him a schismatic and a heretic. And from what I understand, a sedevacantist. And not a bishop in good standing, either. Hardly an impressive position in which to be.

From what I have learned in Catechism class, when a leader of the church (Pope, bishop…whoever) has gone against the laws of the church, then the people are no longer obligated to follow them.

The people are always obligated to follow the pope and his bishops. That’s what makes us Catholic. And we don’t only do it when we agree with them about everything. If we disagree, we try and talk it through. We don’t sulk and go off to form our own church like the sedevacantists.

When I talk to “modernist” Catholics, they insist that no wrong has been done in Rome, or in the church, and continue to follow the Pope blindly, convinced that he would never lead them astray.

‘Modernism’ is one of those words that can be made to mean almost anything - in this case, ‘people who don’t accept what Bishop Louis says’. Damning the vast majority of Catholics in this way betokens a really adolescent attitude - ‘they don’t agree with me, so they’re all going to hell.’

I’m really confused.

Yes, people like the bishop have done a good job of feeding you contradictory and erroneous information. Shame on them.

WHY can people who call themselves Catholics not see that there is something wrong in the church? I was not raised Catholic…and yet I see it!

If you’d been raised Catholic, you’d see how wrong the things you’re saying are.

How can CATHOLICS not see it? Are they so blinded by their obligation to obey, that they would follow their so-called leaders straight to hell?

There have always been self-proclaimed ‘real’ catholics like the bishop around, and guess what? They and their followers disappear within a generation or two at most, and the true church goes on and on.

Please visit a priest in good standing and find out where you’re going wrong. Or ask one of the apologists on this forum why the sedevacantist position is in error. You’re being badly misled about what catholicism truly is. Prayers and best wishes.

 

[Jessi_Thomist]

Just a note: Modernism is a heresy, but it means something other than what our culture means by ‘modernism’. There is also a heresy called Americanism- but not all Americans fall into it…

Modernism that is condemned is basically materialistic humanism. And no, the Pope does not think that we ought to be materialistic humanists
Piux X defines modernism as “the ambition to eliminate God from all social life”.
No Pope has ever said that we should eliminate God from all social life…

We must also remember that Christ gave Peter the authority over the Church, and in so doing also gave the same authority to any Bishop of Rome thereafter. If we do not have a Church magisterium or a hierarchy that is instituted and (for lack of a better word) guaranteed by the Holy Spirit, we fall apart and splinter, like the Protestant Churches have done ever since they begun.

I am sorry that you have not yet found the Catholic Church. I encourage you to discuss your issue with a priest who is in communion with the Church. Just because a bishop takes a different stance on church teaching than the Pope, does not mean that he ought to splinter the body of Christ, this only causes separation- case in point are the thousands of protestant churches.

I will pray for you.

 

[Jessi_Thomist]

Hello.
I’m really confused. WHY can people who call themselves Catholics not see that there is something wrong in the church? I was not raised Catholic…and yet I see it! How can CATHOLICS not see it? Are they so blinded by their obligation to obey, that they would follow their so-called leaders straight to hell?

Catholics will never follow their leader straight to hell. The Holy Spirit works within the Church and will not allow that to happen-- if you are Catholic REALLY CATHOLIC and not the protestant like the church that you have been going to, you believe that Christ instituted the Church for the sake of His Body.

There will also be something wrong in the Church insofar as it is made up of human being who fall prey to concupiscence and error all the time-- including you and I.
It is okay to pray for reform within the Church, but from without you do nothing. In her darkest hours the Church was blessed with the most beautiful Saints. If you think that the Pope is in error (he is not a heretic, the Holy Spirit would not allow that to happen, and modernism is not what the Pius the X’ers think it is) then the best thing to do is to pray for him, and work within the Church, not from without-- that does not good.

You are not joining the Catholic Church, and again, I am sorry you have been duped.

God Bless.

 

[TLM08]

I have seen pictures of John Paul kissing the Karan, being blessed by a priestess of a tribal religion, associating himself with Masons, attending a ceremony were a woman’s breast were exposed! All of these things (from what I was taught in Catechism class) were grounds for excommunication!

However, people’s attitudes were…”Well…he’s the Pope…he is infallible! He can do whatever he wants to do and it’s okay…because he’s the Pope! And the Pope is never wrong!”

THIS is my problem! THIS is why I say that there are those who follow the faith blindly!

So why…you might ask…do I want to be Catholic if I am not willing to “follow all the rules?”

The thing is…I DO believe that the Catholic Church is the TRUE CHURCH. I do believe that if the faith is followed in the way that it was meant to be, then it IS the only way to salvation! But as of now…it should be obvious to see that it is not going into the right direction!

I can buy that. The Catholic Church might indeed be decended from the original church, but I think she has gotten WAY off course!

 

[BRZ]

Are you being sarcastic or serious TLM? Because I can’t see how your comment could in anyway be valid. The Holy Spirit would never allow the Church to go way off course, or do you not believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church?

 

[TLM08]

Are you being sarcastic or serious TLM? Because I can’t see how your comment could in anyway be valid. The Holy Spirit would never allow the Church to go way off course, or do you not believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church?

Really? The Spanish Inquisition and the more recent sex scandals were given the stamp of approval by the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit might be speaking to the Church, but it’s painfully obvious that the leaders are not always listening.

 

[Cure]

Really? The Spanish Inquisition and the more recent sex scandals were given the stamp of approval by the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit might be speaking to the Church, but it’s painfully obvious that the leaders are not always listening.

Thank you! WOW! Somebody finally gets what I’m trying to say!

Yes Christ will ALWAYS be with the true church, but history has shown that not ALL men of the church truly hold Him in their hearts. If that were the case then there wouldn’t be alter boys getting molested, or gay bishops (Gene Robinson of New Hampshire). C’mon! A gay bishop…C’mon! That should have never been allowed!

Look, I’m sure that most of you who have read my post may think that I’m some protestant who’s just out to stir up trouble, but that’s really not the case. Really, it’s not.

I honestly do believe in the church…it has changed my life for the better in so many ways; I used to be a very tortured person until I found the church. So, I’m not trying to go against it. What I AM against, are the people who CALL themselves leaders, and use the church to carry out their own selfish and perverse desires.

I don’t think that my priest is wrong for noticing these things and choosing not to follow.

 

[TLM08]

Thank you! WOW! Somebody finally gets what I’m trying to say!

Yes Christ will ALWAYS be with the true church, but history has shown that not ALL men of the church truly hold Him in their hearts. If that were the case then there wouldn’t be alter boys getting molested, or gay bishops (Gene Robinson of New Hampshire). C’mon! A gay bishop…C’mon! That should have never been allowed!

Look, I’m sure that most of you who have read my post may think that I’m some protestant who’s just out to stir up trouble, but that’s really not the case. Really, it’s not.

I honestly do believe in the church…it has changed my life for the better in so many ways; I used to be a very tortured person until I found the church. So, I’m not trying to go against it. What I AM against, are the people who CALL themselves leaders, and use the church to carry out their own selfish and perverse desires.

I don’t think that my priest is wrong for noticing these things and choosing not to follow.

You are welcome. I think prudence demands extreme caution whenever human beings claim to be speaking for God.

 

[mary1173]

All you can do is pray for those who commit the gravest sins and hope that they choose to do God’s will…not their own
The Pope doesn’t ignore or excuse the abuses that are and were committed by other priests. The church frowns upon, and has apologized for wrong doing by fellow priests. The Pope’s words are infailable…not the Pope himself. For the Pope to never be wrong is to raise him to a level equal or greater than God. And the Pope is certainly NOT God.
He is the Apostolate of Christ. The head of the Catholic church. We obey the Pope’s commands because the words he speaks are given him by God.
But by no means do we follow blindly. We obey our Pope as we would our Father in Heaven. We may disagree, or fight with choices made, but we still obey God’s orders for us as one united and Apostolic Church

The Inquisition was started by Muslim extremists in the 1100’s. Muslims set out to destroy the Catholic faith by conquering, dividing and killing… It has nothing to do with the Pope… TLM needs to brush up on his history, and look it up on the web…
I hope this isn’t going to drive you away from learning about Catholicism…You just need accurate info and clarification of fact vs. fiction.

God’s Blessings be upon you
Mary1173

 

[BRZ]

Wow, way to put words in my mouth. I never said that people in the Church haven’t made mistakes, but you can never fall into hell by following the Church. Your failure to understand that just because there are those who do evil in the church does not mean the church is evil is your own failing and not that of God’s. Do you actually know anything about the Spanish Inquisition? Have you done any extended research on it? There was actually a very good post about the Spanish inquisition in another thread, I will try to get the link on it. You should listen to the other side of the story instead of basing your judgments on biased representations of it.

Regardless, it doesn’t matter, the fault of humans are not the fault of God’s and to think that you are better then that is pride. Cure is talking about one Bishop who has decided that the Church is wrong and is a heretic and a schismatic. Then he claims that he believes in the church. If you believe in the Church then you would not be outside the church. You are creating more problems rather then doing anything to fix the problems that exist. Your claims are not that much different, that the church is way off course and you could understand how someone would follow a schismatic bishop. Your words betray your true thoughts. Denying the Church is denying God. No matter what evil may occur in the world, good will come from it at the time and place of God’s choosing. It is not for us to know or to speculate on it. His will is that we follow the Church and to trust and believe that the Holy Spirit is with the Church. To deny that is to deny your faith and the truth. That doesn’t mean you should accept what is wrong, but you should not lose your faith because of the bad things that happen. You can’t call yourself a faithful Catholic and then scoff at my comments about the Holy Spirit being with the Church and then make light of it in your sarcastic comment.

 

[AdriannaJean]

Really? The Spanish Inquisition and the more recent sex scandals were given the stamp of approval by the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit might be speaking to the Church, but it’s painfully obvious that the leaders are not always listening.

The Holy Spirit guarantees that the doctrine of the Church will be kept on course. The Holy Spirit never guaranteed that all of the Church’s members would behave themselves.