Please help me understand...

[1ke]

It was wrong of them to change the rules after you all agreed and she moved in and started paying rent.

She has not moved in yet, and has not paid anything yet.

Yes, they are being rude, disrespectful,

It’s their house. It is neither rude nor disrespectful to have rules.

and it could be said that they tricked your girlfriend into moving in under false pretenses

Only by someone completely out there, metaphorically speaking. They simply thought more about it and were uncomfortable with him staying over with her.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It sounds like there are other people in the house as well. Possibly even children. I would think that the request to not have illicit sex with a 27 year old man who lives far away.

OP:

That is what hotels and motels make their money on!!!

My advice is to rethink your morality position on this and if you still do not match up with the values of the nice couple opening their home to the woman you love, then the holiday inn probably has some vacancies.

 

[The_Bucket]

Needs to be addressed. And that is where my questions come in. The OP needs to clarify a few things. Is the OP or the girlfriend Catholic or Christian? What is the situation that they can not get married and live a moral life? Does the OP have an understanding of spirituality, God, or the Church that would enable him to not understand the pretty basic teaching here?

Personally, I assumed that since it was not mentioned and his religion line was blank… that he was not.

One of the reasons I am pretty rigid on this thread is that the issue sounds like a teenager complaining about something but this is a grown man. At 27, I assume the maturity to look at this situation a little more openly than “I can’t have sex when I want”

Assuming we’re talking about a secular person who does not know what Catholic beliefs are in this sphere… I mean that’s pretty much what people focus on. Well that and “I’m a grown man, where do these people get off telling me what I can and can’t do.” Viewed from the outside, I can understand that.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Gotta meet people where they are. That’s my main point.

I don’t really know what that means. Perhaps, you could lead by example for me.

Something does not add up here.

Do you have advice for the OP?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Personally, I assumed that since it was not mentioned and his religion line was blank… that he was not.

Assuming we’re talking about a secular person who does not know what Catholic beliefs are in this sphere… I mean that’s pretty much what people focus on. Well that and “I’m a grown man, where do these people get off telling me what I can and can’t do.” Viewed from the outside, I can understand that.

You seem to be focused on my tone and way of going about answering this. I think we owe it to the OP to at least focus on his situation and holiness as much as you seem to be focused on mine.

This thread is about a topic of premarital sex.

What are your thoughts and advice to the OP who posted on a Catholic website who wants to understand the Catholic view and theology behind it?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Personally, I assumed that since it was not mentioned and his religion line was blank… that he was not.

I think it matters not only what the OP’s faith is but also the girlfriends. It makes a difference if we are talking to an atheist mindset, a buddhist one a christian one or a Catholic one. All of that matters as to how the OP can better understand the position that the couple is taking which is what he originally came here for. The OP has quoted scripture, and at least, in a roundabout way acknowledged his girlfriend’s “soul” THe Girlfriend is close enough friends with active Catholics who are “faith leaders” in their parish that perhaps she herself is Catholic. It is quite plausible that they are or have been active int the GFs faith formation.

If I had to guess, I would say the OP is Christian nominally. But as you said. It is just an assumption. We are going to go round and round about all of this until there is some clarification by the OP on several points.

 

[tawny]

Well, good for them. You should not be sleeping with your girlfriend at all, let alone in their house.

Then get married.

Fornication is grave matter (a serious sin) against the sixth commandment. These friends cannot honor God and condone fornication in their home at the same time.

If you are not religious, then that is your business. But, when a guest in another’s home-- particularly when asking to LIVE with them-- then one must respect their religion and their house rules.

Is she being forced to live with these friends? No.

Don’t want to abide by their house rules? Make other living arrangements.

We commit sin ourselves when we condone, cooperate, encourage, or participate in the sin of others.

As usual, well stated 1ke.

 

[PennyinCanada]

To the OP. You don’t have to be religious to understand that the 4 cardinal virtues, prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance, are very helpful in navigating the mine fields of life. You would serve yourself well reading them, understanding them, and applying them to your life. It’s like when you learn to drive, you have to study the driver’s manual, take a test. Then you get behind a wheel and put it into practice. You have a seasoned driver beside you, helping you. The reason is that we share the road with a whole lot of other people, all going someplace important. Then there’s icey conditions, pouring rain, fog, poor visibility, all contributing to a very awful car crash if we aren’t careful. Even if we are, there’s no guarantee the other drivers aren’t driving too fast for the conditions or have been drinking.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm

The cardinal virtues are like that, as well as the other virtues. You as a man, should you get married, are called to apply them to your life, to your family, and teach them to your children if you are blessed with them. This is why we go to church (one reason of many) and why having a ‘seasoned driver’ is so helpful to learn how to navigate life without crashing, hurting yourself and everyone around you. You have a higher calling than the life you are living now! I guarantee you, if you take this on, it won’t be boring. It will be a challenge, and the reward is in this life and eternal. God bless you today and guide you.

 

[acacia12]

To the OP. You don’t have to be religious to understand that the 4 cardinal virtues, prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance, are very helpful in navigating the mine fields of life. You would serve yourself well reading them, understanding them, and applying them to your life. It’s like when you learn to drive, you have to study the driver’s manual, take a test. Then you get behind a wheel and put it into practice. You have a seasoned driver beside you, helping you. The reason is that we share the road with a whole lot of other people, all going someplace important. Then there’s icey conditions, pouring rain, fog, poor visibility, all contributing to a very awful car crash if we aren’t careful. Even if we are, there’s no guarantee the other drivers aren’t driving too fast for the conditions or have been drinking.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm

The cardinal virtues are like that, as well as the other virtues. You as a man, should you get married, are called to apply them to your life, to your family, and teach them to your children if you are blessed with them. This is why we go to church (one reason of many) and why having a ‘seasoned driver’ is so helpful to learn how to navigate life without crashing, hurting yourself and everyone around you. You have a higher calling than the life you are living now! I guarantee you, if you take this on, it won’t be boring. It will be a challenge, and the reward is in this life and eternal. God bless you today and guide you.

Like this!!!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

To the OP. You don’t have to be religious to understand that the 4 cardinal virtues, prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance, are very helpful in navigating the mine fields of life. You would serve yourself well reading them, understanding them, and applying them to your life. It’s like when you learn to drive, you have to study the driver’s manual, take a test. Then you get behind a wheel and put it into practice. You have a seasoned driver beside you, helping you. The reason is that we share the road with a whole lot of other people, all going someplace important. Then there’s icey conditions, pouring rain, fog, poor visibility, all contributing to a very awful car crash if we aren’t careful. Even if we are, there’s no guarantee the other drivers aren’t driving too fast for the conditions or have been drinking.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm

The cardinal virtues are like that, as well as the other virtues. You as a man, should you get married, are called to apply them to your life, to your family, and teach them to your children if you are blessed with them. This is why we go to church (one reason of many) and why having a ‘seasoned driver’ is so helpful to learn how to navigate life without crashing, hurting yourself and everyone around you. You have a higher calling than the life you are living now! I guarantee you, if you take this on, it won’t be boring. It will be a challenge, and the reward is in this life and eternal. God bless you today and guide you.

Thank you penny, this is excellent advice and well stated.

 

[Netty1]

I’d be interested to know why your girlfriend has chosen these people in particular to move in with. She and you know already up-front that they are devout Catholics. The Catholic rules on no sex before marriage are well known, so why would your girlfriend want to live there?

If the sexual needs of you and your girlfriend (collectively) are not a good match with this Catholic couple then it would be sensible to find somewhere else for her to live. If she cannot afford that, then as you want to be free to have sex with her then either stump up the extra money for renting alternative accommodation where her body is accessible to you, or get a motel room when you visit.

Incidentally, the very fact that the Catholic couple tried to accommodate you by moving from separate beds to sharing a bed with a promise of chastity indicates to me that they met you halfway and tried to accommodate you within the tenants of their faith.

What proved to be the deal-breaker was not their going back on their word, it was a priest who then guided them that the “compromise” was equally unacceptable. Devout Catholics tend to listen to their priests, and guiding people is what priests do, it’s part of their job.

And PS to PennyinCanada……

 

[PennyinCanada]

Thank you folks for the thumbs up. Much appreciated.

 

[KimberlyCat]

Why not get married?

Personally I think there is too much temptation for a boyfriend and girlfriend to even live under the same roof.

Pre-marital sex is a mortal sin.

“Run from sin like you would run from the plague.”

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Perhaps the only reason she is there is because of friendship and they are extending their home as a kindness, not because they were needing or wanting a renter.
Talking legal jargon is pretty heavy handed. They likely didn’t ask for a security deposit of 2 months rent, or went through a back ground check. Probably sharing some meals together. Plus, she is free to move out if she doesn’t care for the arrangement. Perhaps it is only temporary until she can get settled on her own. If the poster is feeling deprived, he can supplement her funds so she can rent elsewhere, if funds are an issue.

Of course it’s heavy handed. Didn’t you read my second paragraph? I basically said “You’re right, but at what cost?”

It’s been mentioned that she hasn’t moved in yet, so that changes a lot. I have seen so many people get burned by renting out their house/renting a room out of someone’s house that I can never really recommend it. But if they are going to have this arrangement, the couple and the girlfriend need to hire an attorney to draft up a lease outlining payment obligations, repair/maintenance obligations, move innand move out times and procedures, etc. If there is anything else they want her to agree to, like no sleepovers, they need to run that by the attorney. Because she will have a reasonable expectation of privacy, they probably can’t prevent sex, but they may be able to prevent sleepovers, or at least seriously limit them to something like 2x/month.

If they want her to agree to things that can’t be put in the lease, they should reconsider the arrangement. Giving up this kind of control over your home should never be taken lightly.

 

[Neoteric]

I again thank everyone who has commented, and as requested I will give some more background information. I apologize for taking so long but after Hoosier Daddy’s first post I chose to step away from the thread and see if more replies built up that were more…constructive.

Am I religious? I am baptized catholic, attended the church when I was younger and then against the wishes of my mother waned in faith over the years. I read a lot, studied a lot of different world-views and decided that the God I choose to believe in would never damn anyone to hell based on geographical birth, and that almost every religion believes anyone born outside it’s walls are doomed. I decided to believe in the presence of good in the world, whatever created it, and it’s people rather than choosing the book I liked best or happened to be taught first.

This is not to say I denounce your beliefs or disrespect them. I think everyone should have something to believe in, but I also believe that choosing to be a good and righteous person without the fear of damnation is just as hard as following a doctrine. The same way people can question mans law, I believe we can question the writing of men about gods without fear of oppression.

Why have I not married her? I will. As I mentioned, we are long distance, and she is working on her career and I am working on mine. She is a strong, confident person who wants to be able to take care of herself and I respect that. I will wait for her to gain enough job experience to be able to make the leap of faith that when we move in together we will both be able to find other employment.

Also yes they are doing her a favor by letting her stay there. The only way she can keep her job is to stay with them, she can’t find anywhere with rent she can afford close enough. I respect and appreciate this, and as I said before will honor whatever they choose as the rules of their house. On the other hand, when they chose to have her pay rent and utilities equal to their own they are no longer just lending a helping hand. When one sees a desperate friend in need and asks them to pay their way that is fine, but it changes the intention.

You all seem to be really hinging on the idea that this is about sex. It isn’t. I was more upset by the fact that it needed to be said at all. As if this was some term of the contract (and yes it was brought up during the discussion of how the lease would be drawn up). I suppose I didn’t make that clear enough. I want her friend of over 20 years to trust her enough to make the right choice. I am not some deviant who will try and sneak behind their back, and as I said, if they don’t trust me they should trust her. I want to be close to her as I sleep, to feel the comfort of her lying next to me. That is all.

I appreciate those who reserved judgement and paid attention to the reason I came here. I asked for guidance and knowledge, and honestly? A lot of people who don’t share your faith will never give you that opportunity. I am an open-minded person and I did learn from this chance to speak to you all. Well some of you, anyways.

I would offer my own advice. When someone new comes to your forum in doubt, be patient and caring, not judgmental and cold. I would think that God would want you to be understanding. Maybe one day you will have a real effect on a persons life in a meaningful way.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I again thank everyone who has commented, and as requested I will give some more background information. I apologize for taking so long but after Hoosier Daddy’s first post I chose to step away from the thread and see if more replies built up that were more…constructive.

Am I religious? I am baptized catholic, attended the church when I was younger and then against the wishes of my mother waned in faith over the years. I read a lot, studied a lot of different world-views and decided that the God I choose to believe in would never damn anyone to hell based on geographical birth, and that almost every religion believes anyone born outside it’s walls are doomed. I decided to believe in the presence of good in the world, whatever created it, and it’s people rather than choosing the book I liked best or happened to be taught first.

This is not to say I denounce your beliefs or disrespect them. I think everyone should have something to believe in, but I also believe that choosing to be a good and righteous person without the fear of damnation is just as hard as following a doctrine. The same way people can question mans law, I believe we can question the writing of men about gods without fear of oppression.

Why have I not married her? I will. As I mentioned, we are long distance, and she is working on her career and I am working on mine. She is a strong, confident person who wants to be able to take care of herself and I respect that. I will wait for her to gain enough job experience to be able to make the leap of faith that when we move in together we will both be able to find other employment.

Also yes they are doing her a favor by letting her stay there. The only way she can keep her job is to stay with them, she can’t find anywhere with rent she can afford close enough. I respect and appreciate this, and as I said before will honor whatever they choose as the rules of their house. On the other hand, when they chose to have her pay rent and utilities equal to their own they are no longer just lending a helping hand. When one sees a desperate friend in need and asks them to pay their way that is fine, but it changes the intention.

You all seem to be really hinging on the idea that this is about sex. It isn’t. I was more upset by the fact that it needed to be said at all. As if this was some term of the contract (and yes it was brought up during the discussion of how the lease would be drawn up). I suppose I didn’t make that clear enough. I want her friend of over 20 years to trust her enough to make the right choice. I am not some deviant who will try and sneak behind their back, and as I said, if they don’t trust me they should trust her. I want to be close to her as I sleep, to feel the comfort of her lying next to me. That is all.

I appreciate those who reserved judgement and paid attention to the reason I came here. I asked for guidance and knowledge, and honestly? A lot of people who don’t share your faith will never give you that opportunity. I am an open-minded person and I did learn from this chance to speak to you all. Well some of you, anyways.

I would offer my own advice. When someone new comes to your forum in doubt, be patient and caring, not judgmental and cold. I would think that God would want you to be understanding. Maybe one day you will have a real effect on a persons life in a meaningful way.

Is your girlfriend Catholic?

Since this is her friends in her city and her living situation and agreement. What does she think? Is she as offended as you are?
Perhaps since she has a job there may be other living arrangements that would better suit your values.
But if you are unwilling to uphold a moral code like no fornication, then I suggest a hotel would be a very viable option for you.

Again, you have been given advice, and I am sure you know the christian perspective on why premarital sex is wrong and why marriage is a holy union and why you are disrespecting a woman you claim to love. I know that you have your own personal spirituality with your own personal logic but certainly you can understand the request.

Is your GF Catholic or receiving spiritual guidance from these good samaritans?
Are there children in the House?
Do you understand why premarital sex is wrong according to Christianity?
Are you ok with a hotel?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Please don’t be intimidated by these boards. I know that there’s kind of a culture of trial by fire for newbies, and it happened to me too, btw. But there are a lot of very kind people with good intentions on this site. (Hoosier Daddy included).

My first day here my thread (also about how to navigate a premarital sex situation with Catholic relatives) rapidly devolved into me using him/him using me/no love/I didn’t care about him or his family/if I really cared about him I’d push him back to church/I was a troll. The truth is, I thought that only a few of the most devout catholics had an issue with premarital sex. I probably would have put money down on the idea that priests were ok with it too. But, I was home sick with the flu that week so I figured I didn’t have anything better to do but hang out here. Within a few days I was hooked. Oh, and the person who railed me the hardest turned out to be one of my favorite posters on this site.

Give CAF and the people here a chance. I think a lot of the hostility shown to newbies is just out of suspicion or fear of a troll. Once you post for a little while people will trust you more. Even if they don’t agree with you, they’ll be a lot nicer once they see that you don’t have ulterior motives for posting.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Please don’t be intimidated by these boards. I know that there’s kind of a culture of trial by fire for newbies, and it happened to me too, btw. But there are a lot of very kind people with good intentions on this site. (Hoosier Daddy included).

My first day here my thread (also about how to navigate a premarital sex situation with Catholic relatives) rapidly devolved into me using him/him using me/no love/I didn’t care about him or his family/if I really cared about him I’d push him back to church/I was a troll. The truth is, I thought that only a few of the most devout catholics had an issue with premarital sex. I probably would have put money down on the idea that priests were ok with it too. But, I was home sick with the flu that week so I figured I didn’t have anything better to do but hang out here. Within a few days I was hooked. Oh, and the person who railed me the hardest turned out to be one of my favorite posters on this site.

Give CAF and the people here a chance. I think a lot of the hostility shown to newbies is just out of suspicion or fear of a troll. Once you post for a little while people will trust you more. Even if they don’t agree with you, they’ll be a lot nicer once they see that you don’t have ulterior motives for posting.

Thank you BEL. You, as always, have my respect and I enjoy your logical, polite, and cordial posts. You and 1ke are probably the most common sense posters I have come across.

You are welcome at my fire anytime.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I
I would offer my own advice. When someone new comes to your forum in doubt, be patient and caring, not judgmental and cold. I would think that God would want you to be understanding. Maybe one day you will have a real effect on a persons life in a meaningful way.

Also, be a little patient with me. Be understanding that you came on a Catholic board and asked a question that went against very personally held beliefs.
I am a busy busy man, I am a homeschooling father of four, so I am trying to help you between wiping my four year olds backside and schooling my 7 year old and 8 year old, and feeding my one year old. All while keeping an eye on my NCAA bracket. A little slack would be appreciated!

 

[Sunbreak]

The simple answer why being in the same room with her is not acceptable is that it gives the appearance of wrongdoing even if nothing is going on i.e. sexual activity before marriage.