Please Help Me Understand

[mastda]

As a recent revert back to the Roman Catholic Church, I am very confused about the issue of people claiming to be Catholic, they attend mass weekly, take communion but do not agree with most of what we teach. Then go one step further and instead of changing themselves they want to change the church!

When I was a protestant, if a family did not like what was being preached they talked with the pastor and if things did not get resolved, the family looked for another church. But in the Catholic Churches, these people stay and try to change things and in doing so confuse many. Why is this?

There are so called “christian churches” that think practicing homosexuality, living together, abortion, female clergy etc., are fine. Why don’ t these people go there? These people would not go back to a hairstylist if he/she did a bad job, but they keep going back to a church they don’t like. These same people would not stay members in a gym or any other group or club that they did not like the rules, why do they still want to be members of a church that they do not like the rules to? Furthermore some of these same people even baptize and confirm their children in a church they do not like.

Is there something I am missing?

 

[MBS1]

Is there something I am missing?

Nope. That is the attitude of many in the Catholic Church. That is why groups like Voice of the (so-called) Faithful are allowed to hold meetings at the local parishes. The attitude seems to coincide with that of many of our Pastors. When is the last time you have heard a homily on the evils of abortion or homosexuality? I have a co-worker who is not Catholic but is very involved with her non-Denominational church. Has a 13 year old daughter, but just had her boyfriend move in with her. Says her pastor hasn’t said anything about it - so this is not a Catholic only problem.

I cannot speak for those who pick and chose what they like about the Catholic Church. However, in talking with some of them I really think that since the local churches don’t tell them they are wrong, they don’t think they are. It has to come from the pulpit, but political correctness exists there too. I remember a young priest a few years ago talking to our people about the “faulty” theology of some Protestant churches during a homily. I felt it was about time someone told the truth about it. However, he was roundly chastised by many in the congregation - many of whom have had friends or relatives leave the Catholic Church to go to the big Protestant church with the faulty theology. Go figure.

I have long said that if even one brave priest would have the guts to tell people and preach on what the Catholic Church teaches instead of trying to make eveyone happy - we would have more members than we currently have. Most people don’t want a watered down theology.

By the way, welcome back!!!

MBS1

 

[contramundum]

mastda:

As a recent revert back to the Roman Catholic Church, I am very confused about the issue of people claiming to be Catholic, they attend mass weekly, take communion but do not agree with most of what we teach. Then go one step further and instead of changing themselves they want to change the church!

When I was a protestant, if a family did not like what was being preached they talked with the pastor and if things did not get resolved, the family looked for another church. But in the Catholic Churches, these people stay and try to change things and in doing so confuse many. Why is this?

There are so called “christian churches” that think practicing homosexuality, living together, abortion, female clergy etc., are fine. Why don’ t these people go there? These people would not go back to a hairstylist if he/she did a bad job, but they keep going back to a church they don’t like. These same people would not stay members in a gym or any other group or club that they did not like the rules, why do they still want to be members of a church that they do not like the rules to? Furthermore some of these same people even baptize and confirm their children in a church they do not like.

Is there something I am missing?

Right on - I have always wondered the same thing. If anyone out there has an answer, please write.

I think the reason is that some people just like to rationalize their disordered desires/behaviors at all cost (even to the point of choosing Hell??); they can’t stand it that a big “institution” like the Catholic Church tells them they are wrong. It’s probably as simple as that…

It is human to want to stay in our sinful lifestyles. It is divine to break with sin and selfishness and accept Christ and His way with all our hearts, as the Church teaches… Yet, Jesus said that His yoke is easy, His burden light. And when you think about it, it really is. Human beings just try to complicate things - they want Jesus but they want everything else as well. If they only knew the freedom of wanting only Him: “The Lord is my Shepherd, i shall not want…”

 

[Forest-Pine]

I see both sides of the coin.

First off, if they know that we have the two things no other religion can have (the Eucharist and the Papacy) then they will feel morally obliged to stay within the Church. If they agree on these two points, they can’t get it elsewhere.

At the same time, though, if they agree on these two points, then they should agree to subject themselves to the authority of the church. Just as a child is to subject himself to his parents in all things but sin (even when the child disagrees) so too are we to subject ourselves to the authority of the church.

At the same time, when things such as Martin Luther come up, we often hear Catholics say that he shouldn’t have left the church if he had problems with it, but should have worked from within to change the problems. (Ever read his Theses? Not anything like what a modern-day Baptist would agree with.) Instead, he left the church, and look at the legacy he created.

On the other hand, people who obviously do not agree with the church but who stay for the social or cultural aspect, and who are actively working against the church, are not people we want to be vocal or in positions of authority. In those circumstances, one wonders why they stay in the church and if we would be better off with a smaller church of more faithful followers (A concept Pope Benedict expressed before his papacy).

It really is a no-win situation no matter which way we look at it.

 

[mark_a]

mastda:

When I was a protestant, if a family did not like what was being preached they talked with the pastor and if things did not get resolved, the family looked for another church. But in the Catholic Churches, these people stay and try to change things and in doing so confuse many. Why is this?

Great question!

Could the reason be that the Church needs the financial support of these half-hearted Catholics?

But as Pope Benedict says, he may not like everything the Church teaches, but it is his duty to submit.

 

[Forest-Pine]

mark a:

Could the reason be that the Church needs the financial support of these half-hearted Catholics?

I doubt it greatly,

1. Catholics in general give very little.
2. Dissenting Catholics give even less.
3. The church wouldn’t need so much money for basic programs if it was only a portion of the size it is.
4. The church wouldn’t need so much money for extras like lawyers if it wasn’t so plagued with those bent on changing the church.
5. Those most faithful to the teachings of the church are the ones most likely to give of their time and talent and treasure to the church, so it would seem keeping THEM happy would be more of a goal if the church were financially motivated.
6. Pandering to the dissenters does not make the most orthodox very happy and has even caused some to form their own schismatic traditionalist groups.
7. Therefore, it goes to reason that the church is actually being hurt financially by having dissenters in our midsts.
8. Therefore, it seems that the church would not be “keeping them around” (does the church have a say in who comes to Mass or who labels themselves Catholic? No.) for financial gain.

 

[Eileen_T]

Forest-Pine:

First off, if they know that we have the two things no other religion can have (the Eucharist and the Papacy) then they will feel morally obliged to stay within the Church. If they agree on these two points, they can’t get it elsewhere…

I agree.

They believe that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church. They stay because they are looking for justification for whatever they are doing that is against what the Church holds and teaches, believing that, if the Church changes her teaching, then they haven’t been sinning after all.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

I, too, returned Home a few years ago, and have, to some degree, been struck by the same thing.

But worshipping among non-Catholics (Anglicans) for those years gave me an insight into how they approach questions concerning the Faith and the Church.

It seems to me that many Catholics have, unknowingly it seems, adopted Protestant approaches to some of these questions. The Church itself, for instance. It is a Protestant notion that the Church comes into being when and where believers in Jesus Christ come together. The Catholic Church is like the vine that Christ taught that he was, onto which we are grafted. George Weigel, in a “Catholic Difference” column:
archden.org/dcr/news.php?e=96&s=3&a=2257
stated, concerning the approach some Catholics adopt:

"Thus when Rhode Island Congressman Jim Langevin says, of the recent debate over Catholic politicians and their position in the Church, “I’m very comfortable with my status, and quite frankly, my relationship with God is direct and personal and the Church is merely a guest in that relationship,” he sounds like an untutored Baptist, not a Catholic. No Catholic who understands the symphonic nature of the truth of Catholic faith can say that the Church is “merely a guest” in his or her relationship with God. "

Some erstwhile Catholics have banded together under the banner “We Are Church.” One wonders if they realize that in so doing, they are implicitly excluding both the Church Suffering in Purgatory, and the Church Triumphant in Heaven, and really cutting down the concept of the Church to Protestant proportions?

Sadly, I don’t think it is those who notice the approach adopted by Catholics to the questions and issues cited who are missing something. It is those who adopt the approach who have somehow missed what it means to be Catholic, as opposed to Protestant. Maybe if the adopters realized the nature of the that approach they would come to have second thoughts about it, particularly when one considers where that approach has taken the fissiparous and shrinking “main line” Protestant denominations.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[AquinasXVI]

Fellas:

I think we should look back and see that throughout history the CC has within its walls at all time people who disagree with it. Exhibit A-Judas, Exhibit B-the heretical clergy throughout the early centuries. This is a matter of fact that Christ anticipated and accepted otherwise he wouldn’t have asked the Father for unity. Nevertheless, the church plods on declaring truth upon truth to all generations and all places. Actually, it awes me that this church may get beaten upon from the outside by its slanderers and stabbed from within by its Judases, yet is doesn’t give up and continues to declare and fight for the noble, true and beautiful. It’s astounding.

Acton the historian gave a really good visual when he said that the church is like a perfect iron sphere that dropped from space, the environment it lands in will affect its surface and even rust it. If we mistake the whole sphere for the rust that envelops it, then we have missed what it truly is.

So, yes, it is indeed a wonder—I wonder the same thing about priests that are heterodox…it boggles my mind how they continue in the ministry. But all of this is part of the mystery of our history post resurrection.

I think we should accept it and do our best in the particular corner we’re in and leave the rest to God. That’s all we can really do anyway.

in XT.

 

[Malachi4U]

People didn’t establish the Catholic Church - Jesus did. If people don’t like it they can “re”-form Jesus’ Church and start their own, that’s the Protestant way. People reforming God started the Protestant Churches.

There will allways be some people who think they know better then God what He wants them to do and believe. They will ignore what He says and just do their own thing - call them ‘NIKE’ minded.

Catholics have a choice, follow Jesus and what He said or get out. Our Church is NOT a Democracy or even a Republic - it is a Dictatorship under God. And I for one am proud to serve under my Dictator, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If they but ask, I obey without question. I cannot reform what they have made.

God gave us free will (free agency 4 U Mormons out there). We have the choice to be a member of His body, His Catholic Church or to get out. Every organization has a bunch of whiners. The Catholic Church is no exception. You see, everyone in the Church is a sinner. The Church helps us find God and Gods Grace flows out from His Church through its Sacraments.

Show me a perfect church with perfect members and I’ll show you a church that only exists in your dreams.

Jesus extablished the Catholic Church in 33 A.D. and gave it His authority on earth. He did not give that authority to everyone, just St. Peter and the clergy. If every Catholic was a Pope, we’d all be Protestants. Jesus established the Chruch with one Pope so as to keep the idiots in line and the bizzare man-made inventions like ‘faith alone’ and ‘Sola Scriptura’, etc out of His Church.

Jesus is wize. He knew people are sinners and many of the sinners are idiots. He established a Church to protect the sinners from themselves.

 

[contramundum]

Forest-Pine:

I see both sides of the coin.

First off, if they know that we have the two things no other religion can have (the Eucharist and the Papacy) then they will feel morally obliged to stay within the Church. If they agree on these two points, they can’t get it elsewhere.

At the same time, though, if they agree on these two points, then they should agree to subject themselves to the authority of the church. Just as a child is to subject himself to his parents in all things but sin (even when the child disagrees) so too are we to subject ourselves to the authority of the church.

At the same time, when things such as Martin Luther come up, we often hear Catholics say that he shouldn’t have left the church if he had problems with it, but should have worked from within to change the problems. (Ever read his Theses? Not anything like what a modern-day Baptist would agree with.) Instead, he left the church, and look at the legacy he created.

On the other hand, people who obviously do not agree with the church but who stay for the social or cultural aspect, and who are actively working against the church, are not people we want to be vocal or in positions of authority. In those circumstances, one wonders why they stay in the church and if we would be better off with a smaller church of more faithful followers (A concept Pope Benedict expressed before his papacy).

It really is a no-win situation no matter which way we look at it.

Thank you so much for your comments and for taking the time to write them out in this forum - they edified me and got me to thinking of things i hadn’t really thought of before: For example, I realized the Eucharist was something we Catholics had that Protestants don’t but i had kind of “forgotten” about the papacy. Also, i did not know that Pope Benedict, while a cardinal, had advocated the idea of “settling for” a smaller Church in order to have - 4 the sake of brevity i’ll say - a better Church. Also, i had never compared obedience to the Church with the kind of obedience children should have to their parents. It is a good point because when children disobey their parents and rebel too much, the result is disastrous.

I was beginning to think that there was something wrong with me for seeing things like this, for wanting liberal “Catholics” (a contraditiction in terms) to leave the Church. I thought about that one Scripture that talks about letting the tares grow up alongside the wheat until the day of Harvest… and maybe that’s the way Pope John Paul II saw things because he didn’t seem to want to weed them out.

Even so, i believe, and apparently the Pope agrees, that things have gone too far.

I am the most devout Roman Catholic you could ever expect to meet, yet even I get so unhappy with what’s going on in the Church that I sometimes just want to leave! I don’t give in to that impulse, though, because i know too much (history, theology, lessons learned from being outside the Church…). But i think it’s a shame that the real Catholics have to be THIS miserable on account of the not-so-real Catholics - those liberal, disobedient, un-Christian people who disrupt the Church (sorry if that sounds judgmental).

There are serious problems in the Church. For one thing, people in the Church - even when they ARE devoutly Catholic, can be so COLD!! I know that is one reason a lot of people cave in and end up going to the more friendly, more sociable Baptist church down the street. I was half-thinking about doing the same thing recently, except that i would never give up my Catholic faith. I would go to both Catholic and Baptist (…although, maybe the Baptists wouldn’t be so friendly if they found out I’m a dyed-in-the-wool Roman Catholic who refuses to leave the Church).

I would like to hear from other people who are having problems of one kind of another… (shall we say) staying “enthused” about the Catholic Church. I have often wondered if part of the problem is that i am a little more “protestant” than some Catholics can accept, meaning that i have been through the “born-again” experience, believe in a lot of evanagelizing and Bible reading, etc… I don’t know. I know that a big part of the problem is just that Jesus said “you will be hated by all [on account of Him]”. He said that He was hated and persecuted and that therefore, we, His followers, will be hated and persecuted.

In conclusion:

I try to resist the temptation to become, in any way, another Martin Luther, but I would really like to know what i can do other than belly-ache, to improve the Church… Maybe i already know a few things i can do, but, well, i am easily discouraged, i have to admit. So far, i can’t even get hold of the bishop where i live, etc, etc… In any case, if anyone out there has some constructive ideas, i would like to hear them.

 

[ThisOne]

Is there a religious education program in your parish for adults, or something like a lecture series? Perhaps you could talk to your pastor about starting some activities like that to bring people together who want to discuss Church teaching on various subjects, including contemporary issues of importance.

Perhaps you could inquire at other parishes about what is being done there by interested parishioners. Your diocese should also have some suggestions. Now, if you were able to do this yourself, that would be ideal, but it’s likely there are qualified people who would love to help. I’m just suggesting that maybe you could look into bringing religious education for adults into the parish.

 

[mark_a]

Your response to my question is well formed and reasonable, but I don’t quite understand #4.

Thanks.

4) The church wouldn’t need so much money for extras like lawyers if it wasn’t so plagued with those bent on changing the church.

 

[JMJ_Theresa]

Most of those in the pew Catholics who dissent (at least in my generation-I’m 36), do so out of ignorance. They can’t reject Church teaching because they don’t know or understand it. The first time I heard the term “Cafeteria Catholic,” I was so confused. No one had ever taught me that there was a deposit of faith and moral teaching that was binding. The Catechists and Priests and perhaps parents of the 70s and 80s will have a lot to answer for. I hope we do a better job for the children of this generation.

 

[Forest-Pine]

mark a:

Your response to my question is well formed and reasonable, but I don’t quite understand #4.

Thanks.

Mark,
Sorry about the delay! What I was referring to in the fourth item (The church wouldn’t need so much money for extras like lawyers if it wasn’t so plagued with those bent on changing the church.) was that there are many from within and outside the church who are trying to change church policy through the judiciary. For instance, there are lawsuits to force Catholic schools to hire people who openly live in contravention to church teaching, lawsuits to force the church to support programs against church teaching (for instance, health insurance being required to cover contraception or abortion), lawsuits to keep the church from having an effect outside its walls, the list goes on and on. Even when lawsuits are not in place, lawyers must be consulted about the legalities of various situations because of the fear of reprisal. Civil lawyers are not the only ones whose services are needed, either. Often times, canon lawyers are required to clarify church law when a group rises up in defiance of church teaching. Lay groups are also needed to thwart the efforts of those in our midst who wish to change us, and these orthodox groups in support of the church also require church money through the use of staff, buildings, resources, etc. Overall, the man hours coupled with the costs of handling issues solely brought about by the heterodox is a great tax on the church’s bottom line.

 

[catsrus]

Most people don’t want a watered down theology.

I don’t know about others, but I, for one, came into the Catholic Church for that exact reason.
I wanted the structure and the absoluteness of the theology which I read in the Catechism. It makes me feel very secure and allows me to grow in my faith each day.
Sort of like a child, I suppose, who wants and needs limits.
And as we are children of God, that makes sense to me.
Some children expect and respect the structure and others scream and throw tantrums against it.

 

[YinYangMom]

In reading The Faith of Our Fathers by James Cardinal Gibbons (originally written in 1876) I found myself highlighting the following passages to help me to remember why there remain so many lost Catholics in the Church (emphasis, mine):

Pg 19-20:

"It is easy to explain why so many disedifying members are always found clinging to the robes of the Church, their spiritual Mother, and why she never shakes them off nor disowns them as her children. The Church is animated by the spirit of her Founder, Jesus Christ. He “came into this world to save sinners.” He “came not to cal the just but sinners to repentance.” He was the Friend of Publicans and Sinners that He might make them the friends of God. And they clung to Him, knowing His compassion for them.

The Church, walking in the footsteps of her Divine Spouse, never repudiates sinners nor cuts them off from her fold, no matter how greivous or notorious may be their moral delinquencies; not because she connives at their sin, but because she wishes to reclaim them. She bids them never to despair, and tries, at least, to weaken their passions, if she cannot altogether reform their lives.

Mindful also of the words of our Lord: “The poor have the Gospel preached to them,” the Church has a tender compassion for the victims of poverty, which has its train of peculiar temptations and infirmities. Hence, the poor and the sinners cling to the Church, as they clung to our Lord during His mortal life."

We think we’re surrounded by so many dissenters, we half wish they’d shake themselves free already, and yet, looking at the history of the Church over the years, our situation is no worse than earlier ones.

I think about John Paul the Great forgiving his shooter. What greater living example of the truth of Gibbons’ statement is there?

Because of the Church’s steadfastness in representing Christ on earth people like me (and the Pope’s would-be assassin) could indeed cling to Her robes until such time as we could be renewed in Spirit and Faith. Had the Church shook us and people like us off we’d have been lost forever.

No. Because I was allowed to remain in order that I may be refreshed I would not wish any other lost Catholics to be left behind or pushed away. I bereave any who, through tiredness, let go of their own free will. Jesus would be pained, and so am I. I want them all back and I want them around as long as possible so that the rest of us can help them truly appreciate the gift Christ left to us.

 

[contramundum]

Malachi4U:

People didn’t establish the Catholic Church - Jesus did. If people don’t like it they can “re”-form Jesus’ Church and start their own, that’s the Protestant way. People reforming God started the Protestant Churches.

There will allways be some people who think they know better then God what He wants them to do and believe. They will ignore what He says and just do their own thing - call them ‘NIKE’ minded.

Catholics have a choice, follow Jesus and what He said or get out. Our Church is NOT a Democracy or even a Republic - it is a Dictatorship under God. And I for one am proud to serve under my Dictator, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If they but ask, I obey without question. I cannot reform what they have made.

God gave us free will (free agency 4 U Mormons out there). We have the choice to be a member of His body, His Catholic Church or to get out. Every organization has a bunch of whiners. The Catholic Church is no exception. You see, everyone in the Church is a sinner. The Church helps us find God and Gods Grace flows out from His Church through its Sacraments.

Show me a perfect church with perfect members and I’ll show you a church that only exists in your dreams.

Jesus extablished the Catholic Church in 33 A.D. and gave it His authority on earth. He did not give that authority to everyone, just St. Peter and the clergy. If every Catholic was a Pope, we’d all be Protestants. Jesus established the Chruch with one Pope so as to keep the idiots in line and the bizzare man-made inventions like ‘faith alone’ and ‘Sola Scriptura’, etc out of His Church.

Jesus is wize. He knew people are sinners and many of the sinners are idiots. He established a Church to protect the sinners from themselves.

Response: I enjoyed reading your message but you err in saying the Church began in the year AD 33. It actually began when Jesus was born - at least that is what i have been taught and that is what makes the most sense to me.

On a different subject: The only disadvantage to being Catholic and knowing (experiencing) the Real Presence is that you have to leave Him and live in the “real world”… (so-called). The closer i get to Jesus, the more difficult it is to live in a Christ-less society (the real Absence…).

Even so, i feel sorry for Protestants who don’t know Jesus like we Catholics (at least like some Catholics) do… they receive Him into their hearts and souls, but they don’t receive Him into their bodies. We sinners need to receive Him in every way He intended for us to receive Him… The world, the flesh and the devil are too much for us without the Eucharist.

Please tell everyone you know about the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and in the Church and how important it is to spend time there - tell them no matter how persecuted you may be for doing so… I think that one of the Biggest Problems in the Church today is that Catholics don’t evangelize. They don’t even “evangelize” themselves… concerning the true Faith… meaning, they allow themselves to be beaten down by their Protestant aquaintences… They end up protestantizing the faith, etc… instead of standing strong against the enemies of the Church. We all need to remember that Protestants (most of them) really do not have a clue about the real teachings of the Faith and that if they did, they would be interested and some would be interested to the point of wanting to convert…

 

[katewithak]

YinYangMom:

In reading The Faith of Our Fathers by James Cardinal Gibbons (originally written in 1876) I found myself highlighting the following passages to help me to remember why there remain so many lost Catholics in the Church (emphasis, mine):

Pg 19-20:

"It is easy to explain why so many disedifying members are always found clinging to the robes of the Church, their spiritual Mother, and why she never shakes them off nor disowns them as her children. The Church is animated by the spirit of her Founder, Jesus Christ. He “came into this world to save sinners.” He “came not to cal the just but sinners to repentance.” He was the Friend of Publicans and Sinners that He might make them the friends of God. And they clung to Him, knowing His compassion for them.

The Church, walking in the footsteps of her Divine Spouse, never repudiates sinners nor cuts them off from her fold, no matter how greivous or notorious may be their moral delinquencies; not because she connives at their sin, but because she wishes to reclaim them. She bids them never to despair, and tries, at least, to weaken their passions, if she cannot altogether reform their lives.

Mindful also of the words of our Lord: “The poor have the Gospel preached to them,” the Church has a tender compassion for the victims of poverty, which has its train of peculiar temptations and infirmities. Hence, the poor and the sinners cling to the Church, as they clung to our Lord during His mortal life."

We think we’re surrounded by so many dissenters, we half wish they’d shake themselves free already, and yet, looking at the history of the Church over the years, our situation is no worse than earlier ones.

I think about John Paul the Great forgiving his shooter. What greater living example of the truth of Gibbons’ statement is there?

Because of the Church’s steadfastness in representing Christ on earth people like me (and the Pope’s would-be assassin) could indeed cling to Her robes until such time as we could be renewed in Spirit and Faith. Had the Church shook us and people like us off we’d have been lost forever.

No. Because I was allowed to remain in order that I may be refreshed I would not wish any other lost Catholics to be left behind or pushed away. I bereave any who, through tiredness, let go of their own free will. Jesus would be pained, and so am I. I want them all back and I want them around as long as possible so that the rest of us can help them truly appreciate the gift Christ left to us.

Yes, wonderful post. I can’t remember which saint said it or the exact wording- but it was something like this: No one who understands the love God has for them or the delights He has in store would JEOPARDIZE it by advocating the cutting off of another. Always pray the offender will embrace God, but never gamble with one’s own relationship with God by refusing to be the first to embrace the offender.

 

[tdandh26]

This whole issue is dealt with in the parable of the “Weeds and the Wheat”. Remembering that the Catholic Church is the Kingdom of God.