Please help refute this....Sola scripture vs Roman Catholicism

[Nicea325]

Phineas:

Claiming to be Christ’s church means nothing. Doing the will of Christ is what matters.

I have noticed many Protestants will say comments such as: The CC “claims” to be the true church and so on.

First of all, it is a profound misunderstanding by Protestants about the CC and the church Christ founded. The CC did not claim such a position on its own accord or by its own will;moreover,the church is simply carrying on what Christ bestowed on His church. The premise of making “claims” is a Protestant position due to the fact there exist thousands of different denominations all “claiming” one thing or another from Christ church.

Finally…where is it stated anywhere that its the will of Christ to found thousands of denominations?

 

[Reuben_J]

Claiming to be Christ’s church means nothing. Doing the will of Christ is what matters.

Christ established his church on Himself. He is the cornerstone on which the rest of the foundation was laid. The rest of the foundation of the church was built upon the apostles and the prophets (both Old and New Testament writers)

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,** Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; **

What matters is doing the will of Christ within the context of his Church, not haphazardly in any organization by using one or parts of Christ teachings and ignorant of the tradition of the apostles when they founded this Church.

Even though Christ established his church on himself and he is indeed the cornerstone, Christ also wanted that Church to be visible on earth. In doing so he had entrusted his apostles, specifically Peter whom he conferred the title ‘rock’ to build the visible church. With that he gave him the key and the power to loose and to bind. Those were specific commands and that’s how the church on earth with Jesus as her head has to be.

Peter never considered himself infallible, nor does the Bible say he would have successors who would infallibly lead the church. See Galatians 2:11, where Paul withstood Peter to his face, because he erred.

I seem to notice that this is often the misunderstanding on the role of Peter and what Catholic Church teaches.

Peter as a person is NOT infallible and the CC never intends to say that he is infallible. Again, with the authority that was conferred on him to build the Church based on Christ himself as the cornerstone, there has to be some authority that comes with that task.

When Jesus said that the Gate of Hell will not prevail against this Church together with the key to the kingdom of heaven and the power to loose and to bind, Peter has to be in a position somewhere he is protected against error. Today we know that it is not about his personal weakness which he has like everybody else but pertaining to the basic teaching that makes the cornerstone of the Church.

 

[Phineas]

*This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages… *- Martin Chemnitz

“When someone says the 10 commandments are no longer valid or one or more of them have been changed or discarded, then you know that is a contradiction of scripture and therefore a false doctrine.
Who has done this? And how?”

in response to the above statement, JonNC asked:
“Who has done this? And how?”

Well I will let some Catholic Church leaders answer this question.

Rev.Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.
**“Question: **Which is the Sabbath day?
"Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.
“But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”

The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.
“The Catholic Church, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.”

Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.
"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”
**
Historian’s comment**;
The church of Rome at the Council of Laodicea (c. AD 364), issued the first ecclesiastical Sunday law stipulating that Christians should honour Sunday, and,“…if possible, do no work on that day.” It also denounced the practice of resting on the Sabbath, instructing that Christians should “not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Gr. sabbaton, “the Sabbath”], but shall work on that day.”Council of Laodicea, Canon 29, in C. J. Hefele, A History of the Christian Councils, trans. and ed. by Henry N. Oxenham (Edinburgh: T. and T. Clark, 1896), p. 316.

Apostles’ comment:
Acts 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

Jesus’ warning:
Mark : 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me,** teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. **

Matt 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

 

[Reuben_J]

**
Historian’s comment**;
The church of Rome at the Council of Laodicea (c. AD 364), issued the first ecclesiastical Sunday law stipulating that Christians should honour Sunday, and,“…if possible, do no work on that day.” It also denounced the practice of resting on the Sabbath, instructing that Christians should “not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Gr. sabbaton, “the Sabbath”], but shall work on that day.”Council of Laodicea, Canon 29, in C. J. Hefele, A History of the Christian Councils, trans. and ed. by Henry N. Oxenham (Edinburgh: T. and T. Clark, 1896), p. 316.

Apostles’ comment:
Acts 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

Jesus’ warning:
Mark : 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me,** teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. **

Matt 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Luke 13:15
The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water?

John 5:16
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him.

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 9:15-16
Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. “He put mud on my eyes,” the man replied, “and I washed, and now I see.”

Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for **he does not keep the Sabbath.” **

 

[JonNC]

=Phineas;9433549]

“When someone says the 10 commandments are no longer valid or one or more of them have been changed or discarded, then you know that is a contradiction of scripture and therefore a false doctrine.
Who has done this? And how?”

May I ask, did Christ change the way “Remember the Sabbath” was interpreted by the Jews of His time?

Rev.Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.
**“Question: **Which is the Sabbath day?
"Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

Personally, I would have pointed to scripture, where people gathered on the Lord’s Day.

Jon

 

[Isaiah45_9]

JonNC;9418573:

Rev.Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.
**“Question: **

Which is the Sabbath day?
"Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

How about we hear from Justin Martyr (about 140 A.D.)

CHAPTER LXVII – WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

[Emphasis mine]

He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

“He” meaning Jesus; “them” being the Apostles; “we” being the 1st generation of Christians part of the Catholic (Universal) Church.

This is why we worship on Sunday instead of Saturday: A passed on Tradition given by our Lord to the Apostles and from the Apostles to us.

In Him,

Jose

 

[JonNC]

Phineas;9433549:

How about we hear from Justin Martyr (about 140 A.D.)

[Emphasis mine]

“He” meaning Jesus; “them” being the Apostles; “we” being the 1st generation of Christians part of the Catholic (Universal) Church.

This is why we worship on Sunday instead of Saturday: A passed on Tradition given by our Lord to the Apostles and from the Apostles to us.

In Him,

Jose

Thanks, Jose.
Hearing it from the Fathers, indeed the earliest of them, adds support for the practice of universal Christendom.

Jon

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Thanks, Jose.
Hearing it from the Fathers, indeed the earliest of them, adds support for the practice of universal Christendom.

Jon

You are always welcome brother,

God Bless,

Jose

 

[Nicea325]

*This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages… *

• Martin Chemnitz

“When someone says the 10 commandments are no longer valid or one or more of them have been changed or discarded, then you know that is a contradiction of scripture and therefore a false doctrine.
Who has done this? And how?”

in response to the above statement, JonNC asked:
“Who has done this? And how?”

Well I will let some Catholic Church leaders answer this question.

Rev.Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.
**“Question: **Which is the Sabbath day?
"Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.
“But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”

The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.
“The Catholic Church, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.”

Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.
"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”
**
Historian’s comment**;
The church of Rome at the Council of Laodicea (c. AD 364), issued the first ecclesiastical Sunday law stipulating that Christians should honour Sunday, and,“…if possible, do no work on that day.” It also denounced the practice of resting on the Sabbath, instructing that Christians should “not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Gr. sabbaton, “the Sabbath”], but shall work on that day.”Council of Laodicea, Canon 29, in C. J. Hefele, A History of the Christian Councils, trans. and ed. by Henry N. Oxenham (Edinburgh: T. and T. Clark, 1896), p. 316.

Apostles’ comment:
Acts 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

Jesus’ warning:
Mark : 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me,** teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. **

Matt 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

If you are accusing the CC of not following the 10 Commandments,then it must mean you also follow of the OT laws and dietary laws-right? Do you still circumcise as the OT law requried? You cannot have it both ways.

 

[Phineas]

Nicea 325 said,* “If you are accusing the CC of not following the 10 Commandments,then it must mean you also follow of the OT laws and dietary laws-right? Do you still circumcise as the OT law requried? You cannot have it both ways”*

What in the world are you saying? Do you actually mean that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross along with the 'handwriting of ordinances" which were the ceremonial laws? If so, then murder , theft and adultery are no longer sins in the Catholic Church?

We are talking about the Sabbath as a commandment of God written by His finger on stone just as the other nine commandments. You and others are trying to treat the Sabbath differently then the other nine commandments. You cannot do this without violating the express commands of the head of the Christian Church, Jesus Christ,

In His disputes with the Scribes and Pharisees He was bringing the Sabbath back to its original purpose and removing the onerous traditions that the Jewish leaders had burdened it. He made it honorable again and a delight.

You guys are all over the place in your arguing against the words of Christ… Sunday is not the Lord’s Day, for Jesus said the Sabbath was the Lord’s Day (Matt 12:8 and Mark 2:28). You are all trying to justify Sunday keeping and Sabbath breaking. You cannot do it without first rejecting the express will of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ

Please let us stop the quoting of learned church fathers, sacred traditions and decrees of councils and go see what the head of the Christian Church says, for He is the final authority.

Jesus said:
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:15 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
14:21 He that** hath my commandments, and keepeth them**, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Psm 111:7 The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all his commandments [are] sure.
111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness.

It is fine to have a church to attend, be it Catholic or Protestant; but our first loyalty is to Jesus and we should never let church doctrine trump the express will of our Lord and Savior. Our first duty is always to God and His Son.

“Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto men more than unto God, judge ye.”

Note; God called the Sabbath **“My Holy Day” **.(Isa 58:13) It was his day which he blessed, sanctified, and put in the heart of the ten commandments… Can anyone show me where God removed the Sabbath command, unblessed and unsanctified the 7th day and put Sunday in its place? Can anyone show me from scripture where Jesus changed His mind and became Lord of Sunday instead of the Sabbath.?

 

[Nicea325]

Nicea 325 said,* “If you are accusing the CC of not following the 10 Commandments,then it must mean you also follow of the OT laws and dietary laws-right? Do you still circumcise as the OT law requried? You cannot have it both ways”*

What in the world are you saying? Do you actually mean that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross along with the 'handwriting of ordinances" which were the ceremonial laws? If so, then murder , theft and adultery are no longer sins in the Catholic Church?

We are talking about the Sabbath as a commandment of God written by His finger on stone just as the other nine commandments. You and others are trying to treat the Sabbath differently then the other nine commandments. You cannot do this without violating the express commands of the head of the Christian Church, Jesus Christ,

In His disputes with the Scribes and Pharisees He was bringing the Sabbath back to its original purpose and removing the onerous traditions that the Jewish leaders had burdened it. He made it honorable again and a delight.

You guys are all over the place in your arguing against the words of Christ… Sunday is not the Lord’s Day, for Jesus said the Sabbath was the Lord’s Day (Matt 12:8 and Mark 2:28). You are all trying to justify Sunday keeping and Sabbath breaking. You cannot do it without first rejecting the express will of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ

Please let us stop the quoting of learned church fathers, sacred traditions and decrees of councils and go see what the head of the Christian Church says, for He is the final authority.

Jesus said:
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:15 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
14:21 He that** hath my commandments, and keepeth them**, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Psm 111:7 The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all his commandments [are] sure.
111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness.

It is fine to have a church to attend, be it Catholic or Protestant; but our first loyalty is to Jesus and we should never let church doctrine trump the express will of our Lord and Savior. Our first duty is always to God and His Son.

“Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto men more than unto God, judge ye.”

Note; God called the Sabbath **“My Holy Day” **.(Isa 58:13) It was his day which he blessed, sanctified, and put in the heart of the ten commandments… Can anyone show me where God removed the Sabbath command, unblessed and unsanctified the 7th day and put Sunday in its place? Can anyone show me from scripture where Jesus changed His mind and became Lord of Sunday instead of the Sabbath.?

If you insist on the Saturday Sabbath, then you have to accept and practice ALL of the Old Law, such as circumcision, bloody sacrifices, and all those ‘good’ things in Leviticus. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot have part of the old and part of the new. It is an all or nothing situation. True Christians abide by the laws of the New Covenant, as New Testament Holy Scripture commands.

The evidence against you is overwhelming. I will not listen to you as you continue to beat the dead horse. Show me in the New Testament where true Christians are to keep the Sabbath?
The Old Covenant is FULFILLED. The Sabbath is DEAD, ENDED, FINISHED, KAPUT

The Sabbath was but a “token” of things to come.
The Sabbath was but a “shadow” of things to come.

The Old Covenant and with it the Sabbath, was replaced by the New Covenant.

All of the commandments are moral laws save one, the Sabbath. It was a ceremonial law. Ceremonial laws are subject to change.
Jesus Christ gave His Church the authority to make the change.

The Mosaic moral laws were carried over into the New Testament and are listed.
The Mosaic ceremonial law of the Sabbath was not carried over into the New Testament.
There is no verse in the New Testament which binds Gentiles to keep the Jewish Saturday Sabbath.

There are verses which admonish Christians NOT to hold to the Jewish Sabbath.
There are verses in the N.T. which show that the Apostles worshiped on Sunday, not Saturday.

Since the Apostles worshipped on Sunday, and since SDA’s insist that the Catholic Church changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, then I must thank the SDA’s for admitting that the Apostles were Catholic.

Jesus Christ broke bread on Sunday the day of His Resurrection, the first “breaking of bread” of the “New Creation”.

End of story!

 

[Isaiah45_9]

If you insist on the Saturday Sabbath, then you have to accept and practice ALL of the Old Law, such as circumcision, bloody sacrifices, and all those ‘good’ things in Leviticus. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot have part of the old and part of the new. It is an all or nothing situation. True Christians abide by the laws of the New Covenant, as New Testament Holy Scripture commands.

Word.

@Phineas

[bibledrb]Mark 2:23-27[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]Galatians 3:10-14[/bibledrb]

 

[stewstew03]

Word.

 

[Porknpie]

Phineas -

You describe yourself as “Protestant”. That’s pretty wide open. What church do you belong to? Understanding that would help us respond to your faith background in the best way possible. Thank you.

 

[Reuben_J]

Show me in the New Testament where true Christians are to keep the Sabbath?

He should blame Jesus first for it is shown many times that Jesus DID broke the Sabbath.

I can understand because Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and not a slave to it.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

:tiphat:

 

[mackbrislawn]

In regards to the 8th day:
Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week, which was Sunday. This is the first day of creation as well. Early Christians saw this timing of two events and right away began to gather on Sundays to worship together. As early as the epistle of Barnabas, Christians called Sunday the eighth day, the first new day of the new creation in Jesus. Now, in the resurrecton, something new had happened. As a community living at the beginning of a new creation that had begun with Jesus’ resurrection, the church kept Sunday as its holy day.

From the letter of Barnabas (late 1st century to early 2nd century): “That is why we spend the eighth day in celebration, the day on which Jesus both arose from the dead and, after appearing again, ascended into heaven.”

 

[Nicea325]

He should blame Jesus first for it is shown many times that Jesus DID broke the Sabbath.

I can understand because Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and not a slave to it.

Exactly!

 

[JonNC]

In regards to the 8th day:
Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week, which was Sunday. This is the first day of creation as well. Early Christians saw this timing of two events and right away began to gather on Sundays to worship together. As early as the epistle of Barnabas, Christians called Sunday the eighth day, the first new day of the new creation in Jesus. Now, in the resurrecton, something new had happened. As a community living at the beginning of a new creation that had begun with Jesus’ resurrection, the church kept Sunday as its holy day.

From the letter of Barnabas (late 1st century to early 2nd century): “That is why we spend the eighth day in celebration, the day on which Jesus both arose from the dead and, after appearing again, ascended into heaven.”

Jon

 

[mackbrislawn]

Jon

Thanks, Jon!

Mack