Please help refute this....Sola scripture vs Roman Catholicism

[Phineas]

Well considering the facts of the doctrines in protestantism, I don’t think most of them have a leg to stand on. If Sola Scriptura is true, then why is it that Protestants who believe it are falling farther away from the faith of the original apostles? They deny Hell exists, they require stuff like altar calls, speaking in tongues, and so on. The whole thing is based on how you feel. You can believe anything you want, just so long as you had a “born again experience” – which means that essentially NO required doctrine. You could be an Arian or a Trinitarian or a Nestorian and STILL have that experience, which means that you are “saved” and who cares. The devil can fake an experience, but if it’s not based on the real Jesus, then so what? I mean I’m saved, I had the born again experience at 4, I had the altar call, I spoke in tongues, so how can you doubt my interpretation of the Bible that says that you’re supposed to follow Jewish Law, or that Jesus was just a man?

At least the Catholic church requires the person to follow the historical Christian faith.

Septimine,

You are absolutely right about the Protestant churches falling away and instituting
traditions contrary to the word of God. They are no longer sola scriptura and they have substituted their traditions for the word of God.

The last thing Satan wants is for anyone to study, love and follow Bible teachings. He strives to get all denominations of Christendom to lose sight of Jesus and the commandments of God and cling to there useless unscriptural doctrines and traditions.

But be careful here Septimine, You know what they say about people living in glass houses. The Catholic church has instituted all kinds of traditions that violate the word of God. I will list a few and if you want the scriptures they contradict i will supply them in a separate post.

1. The immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary.
2. Her role as a co-mediator with Jesus.
3. Purgatory
4. Indulgences and penance.
5. Forgiveness of sins only through confession to a priest.
6. Changing the Sabbath of the Lord from Saturday to Sunday; a command written in stone by God
   7…Completely removing the second of the 10 commandments written by the finger of God in stone.
7. Splitting the 1oth commandment into 2 separate parts to retain 10 commandments in number.

The last three are the most egregious and outrageous, But when you do not believe in sola scriptura and think the Berians were heretic and not noble as the Bible described them, then this is what Satan will bring into Christianity.

The apostles , early church fathers and the reformers of the 15th Century would turn over in their graves if they saw what has become of the Christian religion as practiced today.

Oecolampadius,a church reformer of the late 15th Century said, “I recognize no other rule of judgment than the Word of God.” . “In our Switzerland,” he said, “custom is of no force unless it be according to the constitution; now in all matters of faith, the Bible is our constitution.”

Amen to that. All of us have a duty to see that our Christian doctrines and traditions do not contradict scripture and/or violate any of the ten commandments of God…

.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

1. Forgiveness of sins only through confession to a priest.

While I would disagree with the “only,” - "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Your theology has no room for this passage. Oddly enough, radicalism within the sectarian churches that ignore the grace of holy absolution is a tradition of men which ignores the word of God.

1. Changing the Sabbath of the Lord from Saturday to Sunday; a command written in stone by God

I do believe in sola scriptura, which is why I don’t let radical sabbatarians pass judgment on me “in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.”

The apostles , early church fathers and the reformers of the 15th Century would turn over in their graves if they saw what has become of the Christian religion as practiced today.

Thank goodness you’re here to correct the rest of us.

 

[Nicea325]

Septimine,

You are absolutely right about the Protestant churches falling away and instituting
traditions contrary to the word of God. They are no longer sola scriptura and they have substituted their traditions for the word of God.

The last thing Satan wants is for anyone to study, love and follow Bible teachings. He strives to get all denominations of Christendom to lose sight of Jesus and the commandments of God and cling to there useless unscriptural doctrines and traditions.

But be careful here Septimine, You know what they say about people living in glass houses. The Catholic church has instituted all kinds of traditions that violate the word of God. I will list a few and if you want the scriptures they contradict i will supply them in a separate post.

1. The immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary.
2. Her role as a co-mediator with Jesus.
3. Purgatory
4. Indulgences and penance.
5. Forgiveness of sins only through confession to a priest.
6. Changing the Sabbath of the Lord from Saturday to Sunday; a command written in stone by God
   7…Completely removing the second of the 10 commandments written by the finger of God in stone.
7. Splitting the 1oth commandment into 2 separate parts to retain 10 commandments in number.

The last three are the most egregious and outrageous, But when you do not believe in sola scriptura and think the Berians were heretic and not noble as the Bible described them, then this is what Satan will bring into Christianity.

The apostles , early church fathers and the reformers of the 15th Century would turn over in their graves if they saw what has become of the Christian religion as practiced today.

Oecolampadius,a church reformer of the late 15th Century said, “I recognize no other rule of judgment than the Word of God.” . “In our Switzerland,” he said, “custom is of no force unless it be according to the constitution; now in all matters of faith, the Bible is our constitution.”

Amen to that. All of us have a duty to see that our Christian doctrines and traditions do not contradict scripture and/or violate any of the ten commandments of God…

.

And I thank God that nothing you say has come from Him! When and where does Jesus teach the Bible-only? When do you plan to show me those biblical verses proving us all wrong? Second, when and where do you plan to show us the biblical verses showing us where Jesus allowed mere men to start their own churches? Third, why on earth do you hold on to the Sabbath when Jesus fulfilled the OT? Does your faith also circumcise boys and do you also follow all OT dietary laws? Do you really?

 

[CopticChristian]

Septimine,

You are absolutely right about the Protestant churches falling away and instituting
traditions contrary to the word of God. They are no longer sola scriptura and they have substituted their traditions for the word of God.

The last thing Satan wants is for anyone to study, love and follow Bible teachings. He strives to get all denominations of Christendom to lose sight of Jesus and the commandments of God and cling to there useless unscriptural doctrines and traditions.

But be careful here Septimine, You know what they say about people living in glass houses. The Catholic church has instituted all kinds of traditions that violate the word of God. I will list a few and if you want the scriptures they contradict i will supply them in a separate post.

1. The immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary.
2. Her role as a co-mediator with Jesus.
3. Purgatory
4. Indulgences and penance.
5. Forgiveness of sins only through confession to a priest.
6. Changing the Sabbath of the Lord from Saturday to Sunday; a command written in stone by God
   7…Completely removing the second of the 10 commandments written by the finger of God in stone.
7. Splitting the 1oth commandment into 2 separate parts to retain 10 commandments in number.

The last three are the most egregious and outrageous, But when you do not believe in sola scriptura and think the Berians were heretic and not noble as the Bible described them, then this is what Satan will bring into Christianity.

The apostles , early church fathers and the reformers of the 15th Century would turn over in their graves if they saw what has become of the Christian religion as practiced today.

Oecolampadius,a church reformer of the late 15th Century said, “I recognize no other rule of judgment than the Word of God.” . “In our Switzerland,” he said, “custom is of no force unless it be according to the constitution; now in all matters of faith, the Bible is our constitution.”

Amen to that. All of us have a duty to see that our Christian doctrines and traditions do not contradict scripture and/or violate any of the ten commandments of God…

.

**

**You are absolutely right about the Protestant churches falling away and instituting
traditions contrary to the word of God. They are no longer sola scriptura and they have substituted their traditions for the word of God.

Amen to that. All of us have a duty to see that our Christian doctrines and traditions do not contradict scripture and/or violate any of the ten commandments of God…/**

**QUOTE]

So if it is absolutely true and the poster is right the Protestants have fallen away and are no longer Sola Scriptura…since there is no such thing as a Protestant church…how is it you intend to dutifully be sure that you see that “Christian Doctrines” and “traditions” do not contradict scripture and/or violate any of the 10 commandments. Who will do this and who will listen. Outline for me some of those simple Doctrines that have been lost or twisted and those that you choose to preserve.

Oecolampadius? Now as you know Christianity is an Eastern Religion. It did not originate in Switzerland. Was he in contact with any of the Early Church Fathers or did he come by this wisdom on his own? On the other hand you and others could learn from his understanding of Mary.

Theologically he was to considered to be close to Zwingli, with whom he shared a friendly attitude towards Mary and Marian veneration. He is considered an example of Protestant Marian piety of his time, largely in light of his sermons. He calls Mary the mediatrix or mediator (Mittlerin) of all graces, to whom the Lord had entrusted the treasure of Grace Thesaurus gratiarum. Oecolampadius borrowed from Radulfus Ardens (d. 1200) and others the image of Mary as the neck who mediates all graces of Christ (the Head) to his mystical body, the church. You should consider that this Protestant may have some insight. Her formed his opinions as you say as follows:

“I recognize no other rule of judgment than the Word of God.” . “In our Switzerland,” he said, “custom is of no force unless it be according to the constitution; now in all matters of faith, the Bible is our constitution.”

Take your time.

 

[Phineas]

And I thank God that nothing you say has come from Him! When and where does Jesus teach the Bible-only? When do you plan to show me those biblical verses proving us all wrong? Second, when and where do you plan to show us the biblical verses showing us where Jesus allowed mere men to start their own churches? Third, why on earth do you hold on to the Sabbath when Jesus fulfilled the OT? Does your faith also circumcise boys and do you also follow all OT dietary laws? Do you really?

Nicea,
I am not posting to give Bible studies. You can do that for yourself. If you have a specific disagreement with what I have posted refute it with scripture and show me where I am wrong . I just think it is important for both Catholics and Protestants to get back to making sure that what they believe is in accordance with the word of God as contained in the Holy Scriptures. I am not trying to be a know it all so please stop taking offense. If I am wrong show me scripture to correct me, but let’s disagree without being disagreeable…

I think Jesus used SC all the time. He would often answer with “it is written” so that others would see that He was acting in accordance with the word of God.

A great example of this is in Matt 4:4,6,7,10 where in response to Satan’s temptations he answer four different times with “it is written” thereby showing that His response is in accordance with scripture.

In Matt 11:10 Jesus uses “it is written” to show that John the Baptist was revealed from scripture. I could go on and on but throughout the NT Jesus uses “it is written” In fact the phrase is used 25 times in the NT and most were said by Jesus. In the letters of the apostles it is used 37 times.

As for your query about men starting their own churches, I see that as rather dangerous for the most part, unless their congregation reads and understands the Bible so that the leaders can be kept from apostasy. But I am not going to judge a man’s authority to preach or evangelize, for God through the Holy Spirit can inspire anyone He wishes to be a worker for Him. Who authorized John the Baptist to preach and have followers? it was certainly not the Jewish religious authorities. Who authorized Paul to preach the Gospel?. It certainly wasn’t the apostles, for they feared his previous persecution of them.

In describing his call by God, Paul said " Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called [me] by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:"

So, I am not going to question any man’s authority to preach, as the Jewish leaders often did to both Jesus and the apostles. But I would not listen to any priest or minister who contradicts scripture.

As for your third question, i am quite surprised that you believe the 10 commandments were done away with at the cross. Did you not read Matt 5:17-19 ? Here Jesus gives a clear , unequivocal, explanation of the continual existence of the commandments.
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Can the Bible any plainer than that? And don’t confuse dietary and ceremonial laws with the moral law of the ten commandments. The commandments were written by the finger of God on stone (Deut 4:12-13) The ceremonial and dietary laws were written handwritten by Moses. They were said to sand fast forever (Psm 11:7-8) They were said to be holy, just and good (Rom 7:12). Jesus said if you loved Him you would keep His commandments (1 John 14:15) and 1 John 2:3-5 says you are a liar if you say you know Jesus and keep not his commandments.

Regarding the Catholic church’s removal of the second commandment , changing the day contained in the fourth commandment and splitting the tenth commandment into 2 separate commandments, that is downright blasphemous. But that is allowed to happen when men and women look to their earthly leaders as the final authority on religious matters and not to the word of God. .

Jesus said it well. Matt15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men

 

[CopticChristian]

**

Nicea,
I am not posting to give Bible studies. You can do that for yourself. If you have a specific disagreement with what I have posted refute it with scripture and show me where I am wrong . I just think it is important for both Catholics and Protestants to get back to making sure that what they believe is in accordance with the word of God as contained in the Holy Scriptures. I am not trying to be a know it all so please stop taking offense. If I am wrong show me scripture to correct me, but let’s disagree without being disagreeable…

I think Jesus used SC all the time. He would often answer with “it is written” so that others would see that He was acting in accordance with the word of God.

A great example of this is in Matt 4:4,6,7,10 where in response to Satan’s temptations he answer four different times with “it is written” thereby showing that His response is in accordance with scripture.

In Matt 11:10 Jesus uses “it is written” to show that John the Baptist was revealed from scripture. I could go on and on but throughout the NT Jesus uses “it is written” In fact the phrase is used 25 times in the NT and most were said by Jesus. In the letters of the apostles it is used 37 times.

As for your query about men starting their own churches, I see that as rather dangerous for the most part, unless their congregation reads and understands the Bible so that the leaders can be kept from apostasy. But I am not going to judge a man’s authority to preach or evangelize, for God through the Holy Spirit can inspire anyone He wishes to be a worker for Him. Who authorized John the Baptist to preach and have followers? it was certainly not the Jewish religious authorities. Who authorized Paul to preach the Gospel?. It certainly wasn’t the apostles, for they feared his previous persecution of them.

In describing his call by God, Paul said " Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called [me] by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:"

So, I am not going to question any man’s authority to preach, as the Jewish leaders often did to both Jesus and the apostles. But I would not listen to any priest or minister who contradicts scripture.

As for your third question, i am quite surprised that you believe the 10 commandments were done away with at the cross. Did you not read Matt 5:17-19 ? Here Jesus gives a clear , unequivocal, explanation of the continual existence of the commandments.
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Can the Bible any plainer than that? And don’t confuse dietary and ceremonial laws with the moral law of the ten commandments. The commandments were written by the finger of God on stone (Deut 4:12-13) The ceremonial and dietary laws were written handwritten by Moses. They were said to sand fast forever (Psm 11:7-8) They were said to be holy, just and good (Rom 7:12). Jesus said if you loved Him you would keep His commandments (1 John 14:15) and 1 John 2:3-5 says you are a liar if you say you know Jesus and keep not his commandments.

Regarding the Catholic church’s removal of the second commandment , changing the day contained in the fourth commandment and splitting the tenth commandment into 2 separate commandments, that is downright blasphemous. But that is allowed to happen when men and women look to their earthly leaders as the final authority on religious matters and not to the word of God. .

Jesus said it well. Matt15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men

Phinny,

It appears that you have the ability to think, write and dialogue at great length. Are you still formulating a proper response to my posting?

 

[onemangang]

Phinny,

It appears that you have the ability to think, write and dialogue at great length. Are you still formulating a proper response to my posting?

Or Mine, Or Iggys?

 

[Nicea325]

**

Nicea,
I am not posting to give Bible studies. You can do that for yourself. If you have a specific disagreement with what I have posted refute it with scripture and show me where I am wrong . I just think it is important for both Catholics and Protestants to get back to making sure that what they believe is in accordance with the word of God as contained in the Holy Scriptures. I am not trying to be a know it all so please stop taking offense. If I am wrong show me scripture to correct me, but let’s disagree without being disagreeable…

I think Jesus used SC all the time. He would often answer with “it is written” so that others would see that He was acting in accordance with the word of God.

A great example of this is in Matt 4:4,6,7,10 where in response to Satan’s temptations he answer four different times with “it is written” thereby showing that His response is in accordance with scripture.

In Matt 11:10 Jesus uses “it is written” to show that John the Baptist was revealed from scripture. I could go on and on but throughout the NT Jesus uses “it is written” In fact the phrase is used 25 times in the NT and most were said by Jesus. In the letters of the apostles it is used 37 times.

As for your query about men starting their own churches, I see that as rather dangerous for the most part, unless their congregation reads and understands the Bible so that the leaders can be kept from apostasy. But I am not going to judge a man’s authority to preach or evangelize, for God through the Holy Spirit can inspire anyone He wishes to be a worker for Him. Who authorized John the Baptist to preach and have followers? it was certainly not the Jewish religious authorities. Who authorized Paul to preach the Gospel?. It certainly wasn’t the apostles, for they feared his previous persecution of them.

In describing his call by God, Paul said " Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called [me] by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:"

So, I am not going to question any man’s authority to preach, as the Jewish leaders often did to both Jesus and the apostles. But I would not listen to any priest or minister who contradicts scripture.

As for your third question, i am quite surprised that you believe the 10 commandments were done away with at the cross. Did you not read Matt 5:17-19 ? Here Jesus gives a clear , unequivocal, explanation of the continual existence of the commandments.
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Can the Bible any plainer than that? And don’t confuse dietary and ceremonial laws with the moral law of the ten commandments. The commandments were written by the finger of God on stone (Deut 4:12-13) The ceremonial and dietary laws were written handwritten by Moses. They were said to sand fast forever (Psm 11:7-8) They were said to be holy, just and good (Rom 7:12). Jesus said if you loved Him you would keep His commandments (1 John 14:15) and 1 John 2:3-5 says you are a liar if you say you know Jesus and keep not his commandments.

Regarding the Catholic church’s removal of the second commandment , changing the day contained in the fourth commandment and splitting the tenth commandment into 2 separate commandments, that is downright blasphemous. But that is allowed to happen when men and women look to their earthly leaders as the final authority on religious matters and not to the word of God. .

Jesus said it well. Matt15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men

First of all, the CC did not remove anything,so stop presenting FALSE information about the CC. Why do you continue to present LIE after LIE?You are guilty of violating one of the commandments…should I say which one? Of course not! Second, explain to me where you possibly manage to get “it is written” to mean the Bible-only? So Jesus was defending the Bible-only because he says: It is written? Are you dead serious? I can sit here and write scores of verses rebuking your nonsense,man-made, johnny-come-lately theology,but for what? Apparently everything that has been presented to you goes one ear out the other.

Read your Bible without your man-made church theology and read it in the PROPER CONTEXT! The OT was fulfilled by Jesus…caput-what do you not get?

BTW: If Jesus taught the Bible-only as you so falsely believe,please show me where Abraham quotes the Bible? Let me know,so I too can believe the man-made tradition called the Bible-only and also be Seven Day Adventist as yourself.

 

[JonNC]

**

Regarding the Catholic church’s removal of the second commandment , changing the day contained in the fourth commandment and splitting the tenth commandment into 2 separate commandments, that is downright blasphemous. But that is allowed to happen when men and women look to their earthly leaders as the final authority on religious matters and not to the word of God. .

Oops! Hold the phone!

At the time of the Reformation, the numbering of the Ten Commandments in the western Church was as it is today, and had been for a very long time. Luther’s Small Catechism also numbers them that way. The Bible does not number the commandments in a way that would lead you to condemn as blasphemous Catholics and Lutherans for the numbering we use. All of the commands of God are listed and included, and our numbering is perfectly consistent with the Word of God.

Jon

PS And oh, BTW, scripture clearly tells us that the faithful met on the Lord’s Day.

 

[Phineas]

Oops! Hold the phone!
JonNC;9155417:

Oops! Hold the phone!

At the time of the Reformation, the numbering of the Ten Commandments in the western Church was as it is today, and had been for a very long time. Luther’s Small Catechism also numbers them that way. The Bible does not number the commandments in a way that would lead you to condemn as blasphemous Catholics and Lutherans for the numbering we use. All of the commands of God are listed and included, and our numbering is perfectly consistent with the Word of God.
Jon

PS And oh, BTW, scripture clearly tells us that the faithful met on the Lord’s Day.

Well Jon, we know that God wrote ten commandments (Ex34:28 & Deut 4:13)

Ex 34:28 … And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the** ten commandments.**
Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

You also know that the second commandment is eliminated from the Catholic version… It is no where to be found, gone. The only way the Catholic church could keep the ten was to split one of the others, as there were only nine left now. So they went and divided the tenth command regarding coveting into two separate commandments in order to keep the number at ten.

Now you can spin that anyway you feel comfortable in doing, but to any Bible student that is blasphemous. The church has no authority to change the commandments of God.

In addition they reworded the 4th commandment which specifically called the 7th day the Sabbath of the Lord, Notice the difference between the 4th Commandment in Exodus 20 and the Catholic version.

Exodus version
***Ex 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ***
**
Catholic Version **
Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

The Catholic version of this commandment is an abomination and of course blasphemous… They no longer mention that the 7th day is the Sabbath since they changed it on their own authority to the first day of the week, Sunday. There is also no longer mention that God blessed the 7th day , nor is there any mention that thou and any within your gates shall do no work. In addition they eliminated any reference to God’s name (Lord) , His dominion (Heaven and Earth) and His title (Creator of all)

Yes, Jon, scripture clearly tells us which day is the Lord’s day and it isn’t the first day of the week. The Bible never refers to Sunday as the Lord’s Day, but it is always called the first day of the week.

Jesus clearly told us which day is the Lord’s day, for He calls Himself Lord of the Sabbath., so obviously the Sabbath is the Lord’s day. And, of course, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

When the Apostle John was in vision on the Lord’s day He is referring to the Sabbath, for only the Sabbath is called the Lord’s day in scripture

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 

[Nicea325]

WRONG! Your entire comments are FALSE,HERETICAL and blasphemous. We ARE NOT JEWS! Learn the OT and Jewish religion before making such absurd comments!

Read and LEARN!

Christians no longer worship on Saturday But on Sunday since our Lord rose from the dead on a Sunday (John 20:1, Luke 24:1on the First day of the week), thus from then onwards Sunday became the day of Public worship for the apostles as we read in 1Corinthians 16:2 ” On the First day of the week (Sunday) (in Hebrew yom rishon) every one of you must put aside what he can afford, so that collections need not be made after I have come.”

The law to worship God in public one day a week has in no way been violated but rather affirmed and brought to its fullness. This is because all the covenants of the Old Law were given to God’s chosen people to prepare them for the coming of their redeemer who would reign for ever (John 1:45). St. Paul makes this clear saying ” These (former things of the Old Law i.e., New Moons or Sabbaths) were only pale reflections of what was coming; the reality is Christ” (Colossians 2:16-17). As baptism was the fullfilment of the Jewish circumcision (Col 2:11-12) for Christians, so to was Sunday the fullfillment of the Sabbath (Saturday). Christians must never make lightly of the price Christ paid for our redemption as for this reason does St. Paul say ” I wish to know nothing but Christ and him crucified” (1 Corinthians 2:2). The early Church for this reason, adopted Sunday as the day of the Lord (Acts 20:7 “On the first day of the week”) for our faith is not in sum superficial messiah but in Christ the Son of the eternal Father who died for us and rose again on the third day. Christ resurrection is an integral part of our faith as St. Paul puts it “if Christ be not risen, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:14). Thus in deed was Saturday substituted for Sunday (with divine approval) since Christ came to “fulfil the law and not abolish it” (Matt 5:17).

Sunday replaces the Sabbath as it was from hence forth especially consecrated to God by the community’s worship. At times Christians celebrated their Mass in each others homes (Acts 2:42-46). We Further read that the first day of the week is the day of worship of the early Christian Community in the following : Acts 20:7 “On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.” Here we see the two basic elements of Sunday worship which have been followed by the Church to this day: 1) the breaking of bread, which designates the celebration of the Lord’s Supper (Catholics call it the Mass); and 2) the sermon. Furthermore elsewhere St. Paul told the Corinthians to contribute money to the Church each Sunday (1 Cor 16:1-2). This would be a strange request, if Christians assembled on Saturdays.

We read that in the Gospel of Luke (Luke 24:1). “But on the first day of the week” two men were going to a village named Emmaus, were upon meeting Jesus he (Jesus) began to interpret to them in all the scriptures “the things concerning himself”. Further on we read that when he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them…(Luke1: 35) Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread.” Christ’s actions signify the two elements of the Catholic Mass, namely the Lord’s Supper of the Lord’s and the word of God being exposed and explained to them. And He does this with the disciples on the first day of the week. An example for all Christians to follow.

It was also logical to consider Sunday as THE DAY OF THE LORD. It is by the way, the eighth day, that of the NEW Creation, restored by Jesus Death and Resurrection.

The word Sabbath as mentioned in Exodus is quite lengthy but if one reads it all we read : “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it” (Ex. 20:8-11). For the Jews the Seventh day was Saturday but if we read** Exodus God doesn’t mention anything about Saturday all he says is that “six days you shall labor… but on the Seventh day you shall rest.” **So what God is Concerned about is that, after six days of labor we should make the Seventh day, a day of rest and worship for God. Thus a Christian who works Six days and then Worships on The Seventh day (Sunday) fulfills exactly the request of God.

However St Paul answers this claim the best in that he says: (Colossians 2:16-17) “From now onwards, NEVER LET ANYONE ELSE DECIDE what should eat or drink, OR WHETHER YOU ARE TO OBSERVE ANNUAL FESTIVALS, NEW MOONS OR SABBATHS, THESE WERE ONLY PALE REFLECTIONS OF WHAT WAS COMING:THE Reality is CHRIST” In other words, Paul is saying let no one call the Christians to task for what they ate or drank or IN REGARD TO FESTIVALS: NEW MOONS (the thing of the pagans) and SABBATHS (Jews). Note also that the festival, new moon (2 kings 4:23) , and Sabbaths are references to the yearly, monthly, and weekly observances of the Mosaic calendar. Therefore the whole Jewish festal calendar is no longer binding and this includes the Sabbath’s of the Old Law.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

JonNC;9155417:

Exodus version

***Ex 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ***
**
Catholic Version **
Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

Well in contrast to your King James version, the Catholic version actually reads:

Exodus 20:8 memento, ut diem sabbati sanctifices

It would be good for you to go and read what Nicea suggests before more hate comes out of your mouth… well fingers… actually, your heart.

If you are still under the law then you are under a curse :frighten:

[bibledrb]Galatians 3:10[/bibledrb]

 

[JonNC]

=Phineas;9156080]

Well Jon, we know that God wrote ten commandments (Ex34:28 & Deut 4:13)

Ex 34:28 … And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the** ten commandments.**
Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Yes, I know the story - from my youth.

You also know that the second commandment is eliminated from the Catholic version… It is no where to be found, gone. The only way the Catholic church could keep the ten was to split one of the others, as there were only nine left now. So they went and divided the tenth command regarding coveting into two separate commandments in order to keep the number at ten

No, I do not know this. I know that Catholics and Lutherans logically include the “graven images” part of the 1st commandment.
My guess is that the version you use is a reflection of the iconoclasm of some protestants, which is completely rejected by Lutherans. As such, the Lutheran reformers saw no need to alter them from what the Western Church had historically used.

Now you can spin that anyway you feel comfortable in doing, but to any Bible student that is blasphemous. The church has no authority to change the commandments of God.

I would put the Biblical knowledge of Luther and Melanchthon and Chemnitz, and that of countless Catholic theologians before them against any “scholar” you wish to name.

In addition they reworded the 4th commandment which specifically called the 7th day the Sabbath of the Lord, Notice the difference between the 4th Commandment in Exodus 20 and the Catholic version.

The **Catholic version **of this commandment is an abomination and of course blasphemous… They no longer mention that the 7th day is the Sabbath since they changed it on their own authority to the first day of the week, Sunday. There is also no longer mention that God blessed the 7th day , nor is there any mention that thou and any within your gates shall do no work. In addition they eliminated any reference to God’s name (Lord) , His dominion (Heaven and Earth) and His title (Creator of all)

Yes, Jon, scripture clearly tells us which day is the Lord’s day and it isn’t the first day of the week. The Bible never refers to Sunday as the Lord’s Day, but it is always called the first day of the week.

You mean the Christian version, since the practice, which dates back to the very early Church, is one of the entire Church. See, your anti-Catholic speak doesn’t work with me. instead of calling this a “blasphemous Catholic version”, you might as well include all of Christianity.

Jon

 

[CopticChristian]

First of all, the CC did not remove anything,so stop presenting FALSE information about the CC.** Why do you continue to present LIE after LIE?You are guilty of violating one of the commandments…should I say which one? Of course not! **Second, explain to me where you possibly manage to get “it is written” to mean the Bible-only? So Jesus was defending the Bible-only because he says: It is written? Are you dead serious? I can sit here and write scores of verses rebuking your nonsense,man-made, johnny-come-lately theology,but for what? Apparently everything that has been presented to you goes one ear out the other.

Read your Bible without your man-made church theology and read it in the PROPER CONTEXT! The OT was fulfilled by Jesus…caput-what do you not get?

BTW: If Jesus taught the Bible-only as you so falsely believe,please show me where Abraham quotes the Bible? Let me know,so I too can believe the man-made tradition called the Bible-only and also be Seven Day Adventist as yourself.

Nicea,

I respect all you say and have followed your thoughts. I remind you by way of concession that once I felt compelled to accuse in the postings and was reprimanded. I see your suggesting something in the same way. May I suggest you reframe your accusation as…

" you continue to post what I see to be not true as I see it. We as Christians abide by the commandments and we are all guilty of violation. I see what you say as possibly not seen by you as not true…here is what I mean"

Peace

 

[CopticChristian]

JonNC;9155417:

Oops! Hold the phone!

Well Jon, we know that God wrote ten commandments (Ex34:28 & Deut 4:13)

Ex 34:28 … And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the** ten commandments.**

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

You also know that the second commandment is eliminated from the Catholic version… It is no where to be found, gone. The only way the Catholic church could keep the ten was to split one of the others, as there were only nine left now. So they went and divided the tenth command regarding coveting into two separate commandments in order to keep the number at ten.

Now you can spin that anyway you feel comfortable in doing, but to any Bible student that is blasphemous. The church has no authority to change the commandments of God.

In addition they reworded the 4th commandment which specifically called the 7th day the Sabbath of the Lord, Notice the difference between the 4th Commandment in Exodus 20 and the Catholic version.

Exodus version
***Ex 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ***
**
Catholic Version **
Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

The Catholic version of this commandment is an abomination and of course blasphemous… They no longer mention that the 7th day is the Sabbath since they changed it on their own authority to the first day of the week, Sunday. There is also no longer mention that God blessed the 7th day , nor is there any mention that thou and any within your gates shall do no work. In addition they eliminated any reference to God’s name (Lord) , His dominion (Heaven and Earth) and His title (Creator of all)

Yes, Jon, scripture clearly tells us which day is the Lord’s day and it isn’t the first day of the week. The Bible never refers to Sunday as the Lord’s Day, but it is always called the first day of the week.

Jesus clearly told us which day is the Lord’s day, for He calls Himself Lord of the Sabbath., so obviously the Sabbath is the Lord’s day. And, of course, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

When the Apostle John was in vision on the Lord’s day He is referring to the Sabbath, for only the Sabbath is called the Lord’s day in scripture

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Phinny,

This discussion must take into account the substitution of the Hebrew Old Testament under no authority for the Septuagint. My question for you is from which OT do you get your information? The next question would be on whose authority is that OT to be considered as valid?

 

[CopticChristian]

JonNC;9155417:

Oops! Hold the phone!

Well Jon, we know that God wrote ten commandments (Ex34:28 & Deut 4:13)

Ex 34:28 … And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the** ten commandments.**

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

You also know that the second commandment is eliminated from the Catholic version… It is no where to be found, gone. The only way the Catholic church could keep the ten was to split one of the others, as there were only nine left now. So they went and divided the tenth command regarding coveting into two separate commandments in order to keep the number at ten.

Now you can spin that anyway you feel comfortable in doing, but to any Bible student that is blasphemous. The church has no authority to change the commandments of God.

In addition they reworded the 4th commandment which specifically called the 7th day the Sabbath of the Lord, Notice the difference between the 4th Commandment in Exodus 20 and the Catholic version.

Exodus version
***Ex 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ***
**
Catholic Version **
Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

The Catholic version of this commandment is an abomination and of course blasphemous… They no longer mention that the 7th day is the Sabbath since they changed it on their own authority to the first day of the week, Sunday. There is also no longer mention that God blessed the 7th day , nor is there any mention that thou and any within your gates shall do no work. In addition they eliminated any reference to God’s name (Lord) , His dominion (Heaven and Earth) and His title (Creator of all)

Yes, Jon, scripture clearly tells us which day is the Lord’s day and it isn’t the first day of the week. The Bible never refers to Sunday as the Lord’s Day, but it is always called the first day of the week.

Jesus clearly told us which day is the Lord’s day, for He calls Himself Lord of the Sabbath., so obviously the Sabbath is the Lord’s day. And, of course, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

When the Apostle John was in vision on the Lord’s day He is referring to the Sabbath, for only the Sabbath is called the Lord’s day in scripture

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Phinny,

You have evaded dialogue with me. I am going to concede that you are correct with reservation.

You believe that the words on the tablets of stone have been distorted and you point to the Catholic Church as the distortant. Now you almost have me convinced.

Here is my reservation. Where are those tablets of Stone? What is the basis of your belief that the tablets of stone differ from what has been transcribed? What source do you have for formulating that the tablets differ from what you believe?

I know you were not there for the transcribing from stone to paper. The question is what is your source for believing that the transfer of wrtings in stone to paper are at odds. How did you come to this belief?

Thank you

 

[SteveVH]

Well
You also know that the second commandment is eliminated from the Catholic version… It is no where to be found, gone. The only way the Catholic church could keep the ten was to split one of the others, as there were only nine left now. So they went and divided the tenth command regarding coveting into two separate commandments in order to keep the number at ten.

Phineas, none of the commandments are numbered and the accusation that the Catholic Church has omiited any of them is one based upon ignorance and bias.

The command to "have no other gods before Me“ would certainly include bowing down to carved images or other idols and is not considered a separate command by the Catholic Church. The entire commandment is contained in Scritpure for anyone to see, so the Church is certainly not trying to exclude bowing down to graven images in worship. It boils the commandment down to its essence so that it is more easily committed to memory. There is one God and that is the God we are to worship and no other. This is a silly argument.

In addition they reworded the 4th commandment which specifically called the 7th day the Sabbath of the Lord, Notice the difference between the 4th Commandment in Exodus 20 and the Catholic version.

Then I hope you worship on Saturday and not Sunday. This question has already been adequately answered. Are you SDA by any chance?

The Catholic version of this commandment is an abomination and of course blasphemous…

Just a word of caution, if you plan on being around here very long. I am not a moderator but I doubt this kind of language will be tolerated long. No one is opposed to discussing these things with you, but your approach betrays your true motivation in being here.

npatrol:

 

[JonNC]

Phinny,

You have evaded dialogue with me. I am going to concede that you are correct with reservation.

You believe that the words on the tablets of stone have been distorted and you point to the Catholic Church as the distortant. Now you almost have me convinced.

Here is my reservation. Where are those tablets of Stone? What is the basis of your belief that the tablets of stone differ from what has been transcribed? What source do you have for formulating that the tablets differ from what you believe?

I know you were not there for the transcribing from stone to paper. The question is what is your source for believing that the transfer of wrtings in stone to paper are at odds. How did you come to this belief?

Thank you

Just a note. This, and your previous post inadvertantly posted Phineas’ words as mine, except for “Oops. Hold the phone.”

Jon

 

[CopticChristian]

Just a note. This, and your previous post inadvertantly posted Phineas’ words as mine, except for “Oops. Hold the phone.”

Jon

Jon,

You have never evaded me.

I understand your Oops…

CC

 

[CopticChristian]

JonNC;9155417:

Oops! Hold the phone!

Well Jon, we know that God wrote ten commandments (Ex34:28 & Deut 4:13)

Ex 34:28 … And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the** ten commandments.**

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

You also know that the second commandment is eliminated from the Catholic version… It is no where to be found, gone. The only way the Catholic church could keep the ten was to split one of the others, as there were only nine left now. So they went and divided the tenth command regarding coveting into two separate commandments in order to keep the number at ten.

Now you can spin that anyway you feel comfortable in doing, but to any Bible student that is blasphemous. The church has no authority to change the commandments of God.

In addition they reworded the 4th commandment which specifically called the 7th day the Sabbath of the Lord, Notice the difference between the 4th Commandment in Exodus 20 and the Catholic version.

Exodus version
***Ex 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ***
**
Catholic Version **
Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

The Catholic version of this commandment is an abomination and of course blasphemous… They no longer mention that the 7th day is the Sabbath since they changed it on their own authority to the first day of the week, Sunday. There is also no longer mention that God blessed the 7th day , nor is there any mention that thou and any within your gates shall do no work. In addition they eliminated any reference to God’s name (Lord) , His dominion (Heaven and Earth) and His title (Creator of all)

Yes, Jon, scripture clearly tells us which day is the Lord’s day and it isn’t the first day of the week. The Bible never refers to Sunday as the Lord’s Day, but it is always called the first day of the week.

Jesus clearly told us which day is the Lord’s day, for He calls Himself Lord of the Sabbath., so obviously the Sabbath is the Lord’s day. And, of course, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

When the Apostle John was in vision on the Lord’s day He is referring to the Sabbath, for only the Sabbath is called the Lord’s day in scripture

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Phinny,

I go to Church on Saturday…is that OK…have not heard from you…:harp: