Please help refute this....Sola scripture vs Roman Catholicism

[Isaiah45_9]

So God keeping Mary from sin is not saving her?

After all, only God can keep sin away, correct?

 

[Nicea325]

Phoenix says:: Not necessarily true. Adam and Eve, when they were first created, were without sin. There are even several instances in Scripture were people are called “blameless before God,” such as Elizabeth and her husband.

Your logic here escapes me. The Bible says all have sinned, and obviously this means exactly what it says. Adam and Eve sinned . Anyone who sins and repents in sincerity before God is pardoned and could be blameless from that point on, but they have sinned. Abraham was said to be righteous and a keeper of the commandments, but that did not mean he had never sinned. He broke the 9th commandment when he lied about his wife.

Phoenix: Genesis 3:15~ I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

this verse explicitly states that the seed’s mother is likewise at enmity with the Devil.

Your logic here escapes me. The Bible says all have sinned, and obviously this means exactly what it says.

Which logically would mean: Jesus is also included,since you stated:

Your logic here escapes me. The Bible says all have sinned, and** obviously this means exactly what it says. **

 

[Luvtosew]

So God keeping Mary from sin is not saving her?

After all, only God can keep sin away, correct?

I thought the Church teaches free will. Apparently Mary herself felt she needed a Saviour , like we all do.

 

[Nicea325]

To say you do not place your trust in the bible proves my point, as there is no way you can place your trust in God either. Mary needed a Saviour , the Bible says so, and that is what we need to go by. There is no one that has not sinned in the Bible. And either Adam and Eve didn’t pass on original sin or they did, if they did , we all got it. Even Noah and his sons took it in Ark with them and kept passing it on.

I do not think so! You worship the Bible? God saves…not the Bible.That is right! I do not place my trust in a book called the Bible, I place my trust in my God. The Bible is not alive…God is very alive. And you just proved my point you do not even know what the CC teaches about Mary NEEDING a Savior,regardless if she had no sin.

Thanks for admitting that if sin is passed on,being that you believe Mary had sin,it logically means…the fact Jesus is 100% human in all aspects,means he also inherited it.

 

[Luvtosew]

I do not think so! You worship the Bible? God saves…not the Bible.That is right! I do not place my trust in a book called the Bible, I place my trust in my God. The Bible is not alive…God is very alive. And you just proved my point you do not even know what the CC teaches about Mary NEEDING a Savior,regardless if she had no sin.

Thanks for admitting that if sin is passed on,being that you believe Mary had sin,it logically means…the fact Jesus is 100% human in all aspects,means he also inherited it.

The bible is the living word of God. Jesus is not 100% human, he is God Man in the flesh. And no Jesus didn’t inherit original sin from Mary, he was immune, Mary was not as she was born of humans and she is 100% human. He is God. I know what the teaching is on Mary and I don’t agree with it, sorry.

How do you know God if not by the Bible? I don’t understand, why does the Mass involve Bible readings, just for the heck of it?

Worship the Bible, no , I do venerate it though as the words of God. God alone do I worship.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I thought the Church teaches free will. Apparently Mary herself felt she needed a Saviour , like we all do.

Change subject much?

BTW - In Luke 1 after Mary says:

and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

She follows with:

48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.

I used NIV since I know you prefer it

What does it mean when she talks about “the humble state of his servant”?

And

How old was Mary?

When do we, as human, enter the age for the ability to sin?

 

[Luvtosew]

Change subject much?

BTW - In Luke 1 after Mary says:
She follows with:

I used NIV since I know you prefer it

What does it mean when she talks about “the humble state of his servant”?

And

How old was Mary?

When do we, as human, enter the age for the ability to sin?

No I use the KJ and the NAB approved by the bishops, 1970 edition. How do we as humans enter the age of accountability to sin, right from birth , as originial sin is passed on as The church teaches, but we don’t enter the age of accountablility , which is different for everyone.

Oh and in my NAB it says he shall crush the head, not she.

 

[JonNC]

The bible is the living word of God. **Jesus is not 100% human, he is God Man in the flesh. **And no Jesus didn’t inherit original sin from Mary, he was immune, Mary was not as she was born of humans and she is 100% human. He is God. I know what the teaching is on Mary and I don’t agree with it, sorry.

How do you know God if not by the Bible? I don’t understand, why does the Mass involve Bible readings, just for the heck of it?

Worship the Bible, no , I do venerate it though as the words of God. God alone do I worship.

That’s not my understanding of the historic teaching of the incarnation, the person of Christ. From the Athanasian Creed:

*Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. *

Fully man and fully God. Christ was no less human than you or I, or ISTM, his sacrifice on the cross is in question.

Jon

 

[Luvtosew]

That’s not my understanding of the historic teaching of the incarnation, the person of Christ. From the Athanasian Creed:

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

Fully man and fully God. Christ was no less human than you or I, or ISTM, his sacrifice on the cross is in question.

Jon

See that fully God is important. He was before creation and all the way through the NT and he was God on earth, in a human body. Yes he was human, he ate, wept, has emotion, but he couldn’t sin nor could sin enter him. I do believe Adam was fully human also, but he was not God.

that is not the creed I say.

 

[Luvtosew]

this is the one I was taught and said for many years, I know they changed the wording.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth, 

of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

    the only Son of God, 

    eternally begotten of the Father, 

God from God, Light from Light, 

true God from true God, 

begotten , not made, one in Being 

    with the Father. 

Through him all things were made.

For us men and for our salvation 

    he came down from heaven: 

    by the power of the Holy Spirit

    **he was born of the Virgin Mary**, 

    and became man.

For our sake he was crucified 

    under Pontius Pilate; 

    he suffered, died, and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

    in fulfillment of the Scriptures; 

he ascended into heaven 

    and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 

He will come again in glory 

    to judge the living and the dead, 

    and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit,

    the Lord, the giver of life,

Born of the Virgin Mary, not conceived, although in Luke it says conceived in the womb, which is not normal conception.

 

[JonNC]

See that fully God is important. He was before creation and all the way through the NT and he was God on earth, in a human body. Yes he was human, he ate, wept, has emotion, but he couldn’t sin nor could sin enter him. I do believe Adam was fully human also, but he was not God.

that is not the creed I say.

Of course He was fully God, but fully man, also. He was not part man, or somewhat man, but fully man.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

The bible is the living word of God. Jesus is not 100% human, he is God Man in the flesh. And no Jesus didn’t inherit original sin from Mary, he was immune, Mary was not as she was born of humans and she is 100% human. He is God. I know what the teaching is on Mary and I don’t agree with it, sorry.

How do you know God if not by the Bible? I don’t understand, why does the Mass involve Bible readings, just for the heck of it?

Worship the Bible, no , I do venerate it though as the words of God. God alone do I worship.

The Bible is alive? The Bible CONTAINS the Word of God…the Bible is not alive.

Sorry,but you are saying Jesus is not human 100% but only 100% divine,then you follow an ancient heresy. Again…Jesus is 100% human as you and I and everyone who lives and ever lived. No offense,but you need to look up Jesus’ nature because your position is conveyed as heretical.

Well does not matter if you disagree with the teaching on Mary. Did the Arians agree with the teaching of the Trinity? Do the JW’s agree with the orthodox teaching on Hell? Denying or rejecting any dogma or doctrine changes nothing about orthodoxy. Does that change an iota of doctrinal Truth? Nope! Opinions change nothing…sorry!

 

[guanophore]

See that fully God is important. He was before creation and all the way through the NT and he was God on earth, in a human body. Yes he was human, he ate, wept, has emotion, but he couldn’t sin nor could sin enter him. I do believe Adam was fully human also, but he was not God.

that is not the creed I say.

If Jesus was not capable of sin, then He was not fully human. Even Lucifer was created able to sin. Being made in the image and likeness of God means free will. He was tempted in every way that we are, yet He chose not to sin.

 

[guanophore]

this is the one I was taught and said for many years, I know they changed the wording.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth, 

of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

    the only Son of God, 

    eternally begotten of the Father, 

God from God, Light from Light, 

true God from true God, 

begotten , not made, one in Being 

    with the Father. 

Through him all things were made.

For us men and for our salvation 

    he came down from heaven: 

    by the power of the Holy Spirit

    **he was born of the Virgin Mary**, 

    and became man.

For our sake he was crucified 

    under Pontius Pilate; 

    he suffered, died, and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

    in fulfillment of the Scriptures; 

he ascended into heaven 

    and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 

He will come again in glory 

    to judge the living and the dead, 

    and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit,

    the Lord, the giver of life,

Born of the Virgin Mary, not conceived, although in Luke it says conceived in the womb, which is not normal conception.

Mary conceived in her womb. The power of the HS overshadowed her.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

No I use the KJ and the NAB approved by the bishops, 1970 edition. How do we as humans enter the age of accountability to sin, right from birth , as originial sin is passed on as The church teaches, but we don’t enter the age of accountablility , which is different for everyone.

Oh and in my NAB it says he shall crush the head, not she.

Did you happen to read this part from the Ineffabilis Deus link?

THE DEFINITION

Wherefore, in humility and fasting, we unceasingly offered our private prayers as well as the public prayers of the Church to God the Father through his Son, that he would deign to direct and strengthen our mind by the power of the Holy Spirit. In like manner did we implore the help of the entire heavenly host as we ardently invoked the Paraclete. Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own:

We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

[Declaramus, pronuntiamus et definimus doctrinam quae tenet beatissimam Virginem Mariam in primo instanti suae conceptionis fuisse singulari Omnipotentis Dei gratia et privilegio, intuitu meritorum Christi Jesu Salvatoris humani generis, ab omni originalis culpae labe praeservatam immunem, esse a Deo revelatam, atque idcirco ab omnibus fidelibus firmiter constanterque credendam.]

Hence, if anyone shall dare – which God forbid! – to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he thinks in his heart.

And BTW, you do like the NIV

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8654490&postcount=13
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8932231&postcount=9
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8990328&postcount=19
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9047471&postcount=13
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9067020&highlight=niv#post9067020
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9174376&postcount=154

But all of a sudden you only use the NAB and KJV…

Peace,

Jose

 

[guanophore]

I thought the Church teaches free will. Apparently Mary herself felt she needed a Saviour , like we all do.

Yes, the Church teaches free will. This is part of what it means to be created in the image and likeness of God. The fact that Mary was saved by God from original sin does not take away her freedom of choice. She had the ability to sin, just like all human beings.

 

[Luvtosew]

Did you happen to read this part from the Ineffabilis Deus link?

And BTW, you do like the NIV

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8654490&postcount=13
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8932231&postcount=9
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8990328&postcount=19
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9047471&postcount=13
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9067020&highlight=niv#post9067020
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9174376&postcount=154

But all of a sudden you only use the NAB and KJV…

Peace,

Jose

Taking links from the Niv off the net doesn’t mean I use my Niv much as I don’t but thank you (usually the NIV is the fist link that comes up, .

27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

The woman was saying how blessed Mary was to be his mother, but Jesus brought the emphasis back to God and her and said ,better to be blessed to hear the word of God and keep it.

Mary’s sin state has no bearing on salvation , so one can believe what they want about Mary , but all Christians should respect her. But it was as John said, I must decrease to have him increase, and Jesus’s , even look at him, he always gave the credit to his Father, and said he does the will of his Father, always pointing to his Father. Mary said " Do what he tells you" and we should follow her lead.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The topic please

 

[annoyancer]

Hello there, I am new to these forums but I am struggling between my faith and that of scripture alone. I keep going back and forth, it’s torturous! Anyways I came upon this, so could you refute it, please? It talks about how the church wasn’t built on Peter also he has other thread talking of how Catholics were pagans turned Christians and that’s where we get most of the rituals.

prorege-forum.com/forum_entry.php?id=11558

The fact is , that peter never went to rome…he was an Apostle to the jews not the gentiles…

Peter was married.
He was a denier of christ. ( 3 times )
He was rebuked by paul the Apostle for his hypocrisy.

so a perfect example of an early so called pope.
and btw…to refer to that impostor in Rome as pope is Blasphemy also…he has no right to be called that !!
you are better off sticing to your bible… get a King james version, the catholics hate it…

 

[JonNC]

=annoyancer;9363369]The fact is , that peter never went to rome…he was an Apostle to the jews not the gentiles…

Evidence, please that he “**never **went to Rome”

Peter was married

So? Priestly celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine.

He was a denier of christ. ( 3 times )

Aren’t we all? Everytime I sin, I deny Christ. Thanks be to God that, by His grace, I can confess my sins and receive absolution.

He was rebuked by paul the Apostle for his hypocrisy.

Paul is better how? Did he not persecute Christ’s Church?

so a perfect example of an early so called pope.

Meaning what?

and btw…to refer to that impostor in Rome as pope is Blasphemy also…he has no right to be called that !!

Who is the imposter here?

you are better off sticing to your bible… get a King james version, the catholics hate it…

What is sticing?

Jon