Please help refute this....Sola scripture vs Roman Catholicism

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You don’t think he’d find any room in the Catholic Church?
Gosh, its so hard to say. On the one hand, he speaks of justification as being the doctrine that the Church rises or falls on. So, the questions become;
  • would he accept the convergence on justification represented in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification?
    And if so,
  • would that be enough to overcome his concerns about the power and primacy of the pope?
    This is the reason why I mentioned Orthodoxy earlier as a possibility.
He never questioned the Spirit’s presence in the CC, so it is possible.

Jon
 
Originally Posted by Porknpie
Here are a few texts, but not all from scripturalcatholic.com, including a few from the early church fathers that support Sunday as the primary day of worship. The disciples used Saturday to spread the gospel to nonbelievers but they worshipped and celebrated the Eucharist on Sunday.

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

Please read Acts 20:7-11 more carefully. The Jewish day is always sundown to sundown. Paul came to the believers on Sunday as he was to depart the next day, which would be Monday. He spoke on into the night which would be the beginning of Monday. Sometime after midnight on Monday he broke bread with them and in the morning ( Monday morning) he departed.

Now are we to gather from this that the Eucharist should be celebrated during the middle of the night or on Monday? Of course not, this meeting was not traditional in any sense, but rather necessitated by Paul’s need to depart on Monday morning.

Paul said about the Eucharist, “After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.”(1 Cor 11:25 ." As often as" does not mean on any particular day of the week. One can build a tradition of celebrating the Eucharist on Sunday, but that does not make it the Lord’s day. If one wants to follow Acts 20:7 that you mentioned, then you could celebrate it after midnight on Monday, too. But then again, that would not make Monday the Lord’s day.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Here Paul is telling the church to lay up store (set aside contributions)
Paul was taking up a collection not as a tithe for the churches, but for famine relief for the brethren in Judea. ( See Acts 11:27-30 and Rom 15:26): He told them to lay by them store on the first day of the week. That meant to take time on Sunday and set aside a contribution commensurate with : “As God hath prospered him.” This was not a regular church offering and was not done at church. They were to keep it “by them” and give to Paul when he came… . Paul said this was to be done so they could individually have something stored up, “that there be no gatherings” when he came

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”

Please read Col 2:14 which describes what law Paul was speaking of:in verses16-17. It states,“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” Paul is talking about the ceremonial law contained in the Law of Moses which was handwritten by Moses and contained sacrifices and the 7 yearly feast days which were called annual Sabbaths (See Lev 23). They were shadows of Christ and his mission and were abolished at Christ’s death. The weekly Sabbath was part of the ten commandments and made or all men . These handwritten ordinances also contained regulations on meat and drink which were what Paul was referring to when he said " Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: (Col 2:16) The weekly Sabbath command was not part of the Mosaic law, but was part of God’s moral law which He himself wrote on stone. They were for all mankind and were definitely not a shadow of Christ and his mission.and the ten commandments were definitely not nailed to the cross.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.
In Rev 1:10, John says "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, " Jesus said the Sabbath was the Lord’s day and John was his disciple. Why would anyone think John’s statement to mean anything other than the seventh day? John was in vision. To say he was witnessing “the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday” is completely without any scriptural foundation or authority and is a perfect example of wresting scripture to justify a man a church doctrine

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.
The apostles certainly did not celebrate Sunday in this manner , nor was it given sanction anywhere in the New Testament. It is a church tradition that contradicts scripture if it breaks the Sabbath commandment. No church or personage has the authority to change times and laws ( see Dan 7:25 warning about this very thing)

All of those other non-biblical statements you listed are from men who see no harm in brazingly contradicting the word of God. Anyone who follows them is clearly disregarding the clear warnings of Christ in Matt 5:17-19 and is committing the very error that Jesus specifically warned about when he said," Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men."( Mark 7:7; Matt 15:3,9; Titus 1:14)

Sola Scriptura:
The Bible reveals to men the will of God. Tradition, however, reveals the will of men to men and it may or may not contradict the will of God. If it contradicts God’s will, then it should be discarded immediately. The Bible, God’s word, is always he final authority on the will of God.
 
Sola Scriptura:
The Bible reveals to men the will of God. Tradition, however, reveals the will of men to men and it may or may not contradict the will of God. If it contradicts God’s will, then it should be discarded immediately. The Bible, God’s word, is always he final authority on the will of God.
The Bible has revealed to me that SDA is not the way. Now what?
 
stevekehl;9523469:
Steve,

Scripture tells us that Salvation is through the Church…the mystery hidden for all ages by which Gentiles are made fellow heirs with Christ…and that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth and through which the manifold wisdom of God is known…so I guess it would be pretty important to know all about that Church and why you should take communion, why you would want to daily, observing lent, honoring the mother of the head of the Church, and what you should and should not watch…now the hair thing and the belly button may be a Church of Christ thing…but they have only existed a few hundred years…I believe knowing where the way to become a fellow heir with Christ would be pretty important…
You know what else has been around a long time,prostitution. That doesn’t make it right.(A little hyperbole to make a point, don’t go all “Are you calling the church the whore of Babylon,” ) There are only a few things required for salvation: to believe that Christ is God’s Son,the Messiah, that He died for our sins and rose again, repent of your sins, confess Christ as your Lord, and be baptized. My biggest problem with the Catholic Church is the requirement to believe everything the church teaches to be in a state of grace. Salvation is not through any organization (Jehovah’s Witnesses teach the same thing) but through faith in Christ alone.
 
CopticChristian;9523498:
You know what else has been around a long time,prostitution. That doesn’t make it right.(A little hyperbole to make a point, don’t go all “Are you calling the church the whore of Babylon,” ) There are only a few things required for salvation: to believe that Christ is God’s Son,the Messiah, that He died for our sins and rose again, repent of your sins, confess Christ as your Lord, and be baptized.
My biggest problem with the Catholic Church is the requirement to believe everything the church teaches to be in a state of grace. Salvation is not through any organization (Jehovah’s Witnesses teach the same thing) but through faith in Christ alone.

Steve…

Read the red and add “according to you”…and then you are saying that salvation is through Faith in Christ alone…and that contradicts what the OHCAC teaches is that Salvation is by grace alone, through Faith alone, working in love, a gift that is not of your own…

So according to your paradigm…if on your own you can do nothing…if you need Faith in Christ for salvation…where do you get this faith…and how do you get it…if it is a free gift?

If you tell me that you have to confess with your lips and believe with your heart then you are doing something to cause that gift to come to you…and that negates it as a free gift and then obligates God to you because you opened your mouth…I can’t buy that.
 
JWs do not believe in a Triune God, and can rely on Scripture to “prove” there is no such doctrine as the Trinity. Aren’t they right?

If not, are they making a “small” error or a “big” error? And does Scripture give us a list of small errors and big errors?

(Post Script: no need to cite verses related to your belief in the Trinity. Let’s stick to the epistemological issue - i.e., how do we know who’s right?)
The issues are inseparable. Scripture is used to determine who is right when it comes to doctrine. If the church doesn’t use Scripture in developing doctrine I would say that is a big error. Big errors have to do with salvation,like saying infants can be saved by their parents faith. If that were true, dead infants could be baptized even though the soul had left the body. Small errors are saying that a Christian man can’t have an earring, or Christians don’t smoke or play cards. Scriptures can be found to support their teaching, the body is the temple of God (oops, sorry about that) but it doesn’t impact salvation.
 
The issues are inseparable. Scripture is used to determine who is right when it comes to doctrine. If the church doesn’t use Scripture in developing doctrine I would say that is a big error. Big errors have to do with salvation,like saying infants can be saved by their parents faith. If that were true, dead infants could be baptized even though the soul had left the body. Small errors are saying that a Christian man can’t have an earring, or Christians don’t smoke or play cards. Scriptures can be found to support their teaching, the body is the temple of God (oops, sorry about that) but it doesn’t impact salvation.
Steve,

Now I am with you…:mad:

Who is teaching that the faith of the parents saves an infant…:nunchuk:

Tell me who…Steve…who is doing this…tell me please…don’t keep it a secret…:onpatrol:
 
Please read Acts 20:7-11 more carefully. The Jewish day is always sundown to sundown. Paul came to the believers on Sunday as he was to depart the next day, which would be Monday. He spoke on into the night which would be the beginning of Monday. Sometime after midnight on Monday he broke bread with them and in the morning ( Monday morning) he departed.
Now are we to gather from this that the Eucharist should be celebrated during the middle of the night or on Monday? Of course not, this meeting was not traditional in any sense, but rather necessitated by Paul’s need to depart on Monday morning.
Phineas, 20:7 provides early evidence that the believers came together on Sunday for instruction and the Eucharist. St. Paul was following the Lord’s instructions to preach the good news, it does not surprise me that he continued into the night as he was leaving the next day. The scripture does not say that they broke bread the next day but he prolonged his teaching, that he continued talking to them after the sacrament. Makes sense to me. He had journeyed a long way and all the books in the world could not hold all of what Jesus said and done. Again, logic tells me he would have talked to them into the night, prolonging his speech. I would have stayed up all night listening to St. Paul too.
Paul said about the Eucharist, “After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.”(1 Cor 11:25 ." As often as" does not mean on any particular day of the week. One can build a tradition of celebrating the Eucharist on Sunday, but that does not make it the Lord’s day. If one wants to follow Acts 20:7 that you mentioned, then you could celebrate it after midnight on Monday, too. But then again, that would not make Monday the Lord’s day.
Sunday is the primary day of worship for sure, Revelation 1:10 is clear, but many Catholic churches have daily mass too. Not only can we receive the Lord daily, but if you attend mass daily, the rotation of scriptural readings allows you to hear nearly the whole bible, in church, in 2 years. 👍
1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.
Here Paul is telling the church to lay up store (set aside contributions)
Paul was taking up a collection not as a tithe for the churches, but for famine relief for the brethren in Judea. ( See Acts 11:27-30 and Rom 15:26): He told them to lay by them store on the first day of the week. That meant to take time on Sunday and set aside a contribution commensurate with : “As God hath prospered him.” This was not a regular church offering and was not done at church. They were to keep it “by them” and give to Paul when he came… . Paul said this was to be done so they could individually have something stored up, “that there be no gatherings” when he came
We both agree that scripture says that St. Paul was collecting donations from the Gentiles to aid those in Jerusalem. However, Romans 15:26 says “a” contribution was made. It does not imply it was the only contribution. King James says a “certain” contribution was made, St Ignatius bible says “some” contribution. Again, no where does it imply “only”.

26*For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the [a]saints in Jerusalem."
Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”
Please read Col 2:14 which describes what law Paul was speaking of:in verses16-17. It states,“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” Paul is talking about the ceremonial law contained in the Law of Moses which was handwritten by Moses and contained sacrifices and the 7 yearly feast days which were called annual Sabbaths (See Lev 23). They were shadows of Christ and his mission and were abolished at Christ’s death. The weekly Sabbath was part of the ten commandments and made or all men . These handwritten ordinances also contained regulations on meat and drink which were what Paul was referring to when he said " Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: (Col 2:16) The weekly Sabbath command was not part of the Mosaic law, but was part of God’s moral law which He himself wrote on stone. They were for all mankind and were definitely not a shadow of Christ and his mission.and the ten commandments were definitely not nailed to the cross.
Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.
In Rev 1:10, John says "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, " Jesus said the Sabbath was the Lord’s day and John was his disciple. Why would anyone think John’s statement to mean anything other than the seventh day? John was in vision. To say he was witnessing “the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday” is completely without any scriptural foundation or authority and is a perfect example of wresting scripture to justify a man a church doctrine
Phineas, you reject scripture plainly stated. The Lord’s Day as a term was developed by the early church and was used in Revelation and has been understood in Revelation as the first day of the week for nearly 2000 years. What evidence do you have to the contrary to overturn 2000 years of biblical understanding and under what authority?
Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.
The apostles certainly did not celebrate Sunday in this manner , nor was it given sanction anywhere in the New Testament. It is a church tradition that contradicts scripture if it breaks the Sabbath commandment. No church or personage has the authority to change times and laws ( see Dan 7:25 warning about this very thing)

You are ignoring Acts 20:7 on breaking bread on Sunday. Jesus gave St Peter the keys to the kingdom, to bind and loose on earth. St. Peter as Christ’s prime minister on earth had the authority. The Sabbath was fulfilled by Christ and the new covenant recognizes Sunday the day of resurrection. You are at odds with 2000 years of Catholic, Orthodox and even reformation teaching. I always say when the Catholics and Reformation Protestants agree on something, you have to question the sand your house is built on.
All of those other non-biblical statements you listed are from men who see no harm in brazingly contradicting the word of God. Anyone who follows them is clearly disregarding the clear warnings of Christ in Matt 5:17-19 and is committing the very error that Jesus specifically warned about when he said," Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men."( Mark 7:7; Matt 15:3,9; Titus 1:14)
Sola Scriptura:
The Bible reveals to men the will of God. Tradition, however, reveals the will of men to men and it may or may not contradict the will of God. If it contradicts God’s will, then it should be discarded immediately. The Bible, God’s word, is always he final authority on the will of God.
The will of God also includes the instructions that the disciples should go out and “preach” the good news. Jesus never told them to write anything down. The bible came from the church 350 years later to have an infallible, universal set of readings to be used at mass. Those men that you speak of were the ones that approved your canon of scripture (less any books stripped out by the reformers), brought to you by the Catholic church. :p. Where in the bible does it say that it is the final authority of truth? In fact, it doesn’t. Rather, 1 Timothy 3:15 says that the church is the pillar and bulwark of truth.

I assume that you do not contradict the word of God by believing in the Eucharist. Christ’s own words plainly state, repeatedly, that the bread and wine become his body and blood. And the early church believed in it immediately and the early church fathers wrote about it. To believe it is only symbolic contradicts Gods will.

Acts 20:28-30 also warns us that there would be those that would challenge the Catholic church established by Christ. The overseers are the men (shepherds) that you criticize above. 🤷

28Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you [a]overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He **purchased [c]with His own blood. 29I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30*and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.**
 
Originally Posted by Porknpie
Here are a few texts, but not all from scripturalcatholic.com, including a few from the early church fathers that support Sunday as the primary day of worship. The disciples used Saturday to spread the gospel to nonbelievers but they worshipped and celebrated the Eucharist on Sunday.

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

Please read Acts 20:7-11 more carefully. The Jewish day is always sundown to sundown. Paul came to the believers on Sunday as he was to depart the next day, which would be Monday. He spoke on into the night which would be the beginning of Monday. Sometime after midnight on Monday he broke bread with them and in the morning ( Monday morning) he departed.

Now are we to gather from this that the Eucharist should be celebrated during the middle of the night or on Monday? Of course not, this meeting was not traditional in any sense, but rather necessitated by Paul’s need to depart on Monday morning.

Paul said about the Eucharist, “After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.”(1 Cor 11:25 ." As often as" does not mean on any particular day of the week. One can build a tradition of celebrating the Eucharist on Sunday, but that does not make it the Lord’s day. If one wants to follow Acts 20:7 that you mentioned, then you could celebrate it after midnight on Monday, too. But then again, that would not make Monday the Lord’s day.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Here Paul is telling the church to lay up store (set aside contributions)
Paul was taking up a collection not as a tithe for the churches, but for famine relief for the brethren in Judea. ( See Acts 11:27-30 and Rom 15:26): He told them to lay by them store on the first day of the week. That meant to take time on Sunday and set aside a contribution commensurate with : “As God hath prospered him.” This was not a regular church offering and was not done at church. They were to keep it “by them” and give to Paul when he came… . Paul said this was to be done so they could individually have something stored up, “that there be no gatherings” when he came

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”

Please read Col 2:14 which describes what law Paul was speaking of:in verses16-17. It states,“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” Paul is talking about the ceremonial law contained in the Law of Moses which was handwritten by Moses and contained sacrifices and the 7 yearly feast days which were called annual Sabbaths (See Lev 23). They were shadows of Christ and his mission and were abolished at Christ’s death. The weekly Sabbath was part of the ten commandments and made or all men . These handwritten ordinances also contained regulations on meat and drink which were what Paul was referring to when he said " Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: (Col 2:16) The weekly Sabbath command was not part of the Mosaic law, but was part of God’s moral law which He himself wrote on stone. They were for all mankind and were definitely not a shadow of Christ and his mission.and the ten commandments were definitely not nailed to the cross.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.
In Rev 1:10, John says "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, " Jesus said the Sabbath was the Lord’s day and John was his disciple. Why would anyone think John’s statement to mean anything other than the seventh day? John was in vision. To say he was witnessing “the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday” is completely without any scriptural foundation or authority and is a perfect example of wresting scripture to justify a man a church doctrine

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.
The apostles certainly did not celebrate Sunday in this manner , nor was it given sanction anywhere in the New Testament. It is a church tradition that contradicts scripture if it breaks the Sabbath commandment. No church or personage has the authority to change times and laws ( see Dan 7:25 warning about this very thing)

All of those other non-biblical statements you listed are from men who see no harm in brazingly contradicting the word of God. Anyone who follows them is clearly disregarding the clear warnings of Christ in Matt 5:17-19 and is committing the very error that Jesus specifically warned about when he said," Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men."( Mark 7:7; Matt 15:3,9; Titus 1:14)

Sola Scriptura:
The Bible reveals to men the will of God. Tradition, however, reveals the will of men to men and it may or may not contradict the will of God. If it contradicts God’s will, then it should be discarded immediately. The Bible, God’s word, is always he final authority on the will of God.
Phineas,

Did you read what StewStew wrote…“the SDA is not the way”…can you help me? All I ask…just one question…are you a 7th Dary Adventist?
 
Hello there, I am new to these forums but I am struggling between my faith and that of scripture alone. I keep going back and forth, it’s torturous! Anyways I came upon this, so could you refute it, please? It talks about how the church wasn’t built on Peter also he has other thread talking of how Catholics were pagans turned Christians and that’s where we get most of the rituals.

prorege-forum.com/forum_entry.php?id=11558
Even if the Church weren’t built on Peter the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is a joke. Even equally credentialed scholars in various fields of theology and more importantly biblical studies/hermeneutics often take diametrically opposed sides on significant matters based on their interpretations of Scipture. The faith, the gospel, must have been given and received* first*-to the Church- in order for early and later Christians to know it when they hear it-and this was done before one word of NT Scripture was even written.
 
The issues are inseparable. Scripture is used to determine who is right when it comes to doctrine. If the church doesn’t use Scripture in developing doctrine I would say that is a big error. Big errors have to do with salvation,like saying infants can be saved by their parents faith. If that were true, dead infants could be baptized even though the soul had left the body. Small errors are saying that a Christian man can’t have an earring, or Christians don’t smoke or play cards. Scriptures can be found to support their teaching, the body is the temple of God (oops, sorry about that) but it doesn’t impact salvation.
Is failure to observe the 7th-day sabbath a small error or big error? I think other participants on this thread would like to know…

I understand that “Steve” thinks some things are small errors, while others are big errors - but you’ll forgive me for not taking your word for it. I had assumed you were going to provide me with book, chapter, and verse of the small and big errors.

You still haven’t resolved the issue of authority and the different interpretation of scripture. Yes, I know that "scripture is used to determine who is right when it comes to doctrine.’ But who decides whether a verse is literal or figurative? Who decides that the Trinity is evident? The JWs make a pretty strong case. Who decides whether or not we must observe the seventh-day sabbath? The SDAs make a pretty strong case. Who decides when we receive baptism (infant or adult) - and how much water do we use? Baptists will tell you baptism is just a symbol, but then insist that the symbol be just so (believer is immersed) otherwise it’s invalid. Catholics believe baptism is necessary for salvation, but one can be baptised as an infant or adult, and it matters not how much water is used for the sacrament.

To be clear, I’m not expecting you to address the Trinity, the sabbath, and baptism. But if I want to know who’s right - do I ask you, Steve? Do I ask Ellen White? Given that both Steve and Ellen White will use scripture to convince me, how do I decide who to trust?
 
Big errors have to do with salvation,like saying infants can be saved by their parents faith.
What about infant “dedication” ceremonies? I’m not sure if your particular sect practices this, but I know many protestant sects do. Where can I find this practice in the bible?
 
Is failure to observe the 7th-day sabbath a small error or big error? I think other participants on this thread would like to know…

I understand that “Steve” thinks some things are small errors, while others are big errors - but you’ll forgive me for not taking your word for it. I had assumed you were going to provide me with book, chapter, and verse of the small and big errors.

You still haven’t resolved the issue of authority and the different interpretation of scripture. Yes, I know that "scripture is used to determine who is right when it comes to doctrine.’ But who decides whether a verse is literal or figurative? Who decides that the Trinity is evident? The JWs make a pretty strong case. Who decides whether or not we must observe the seventh-day sabbath? The SDAs make a pretty strong case. Who decides when we receive baptism (infant or adult) - and how much water do we use? Baptists will tell you baptism is just a symbol, but then insist that the symbol be just so (believer is immersed) otherwise it’s invalid. Catholics believe baptism is necessary for salvation, but one can be baptised as an infant or adult, and it matters not how much water is used for the sacrament.

To be clear, I’m not expecting you to address the Trinity, the sabbath, and baptism. But if I want to know who’s right - do I ask you, Steve? Do I ask Ellen White? Given that both Steve and Ellen White will use scripture to convince me, how do I decide who to trust?
Stew,

It is my understanding that Ellen White has been discredited on many of these threads. I suggest we dismiss Ellen and let Steve respond.
 
Stew,

It is my understanding that Ellen White has been discredited on many of these threads. I suggest we dismiss Ellen and let Steve respond.
The reference to Ellen White was merely rhetorical, so I’m fine if he dismisses her.
 
Quite simply they can’t prove it. The Church of Christ has saying Scripture interprets Scripture, I think the CC has a similar teaching, There is a happy agreement in all of Scripture (something like that). Pulling a verse out of Scripture is useful for a Bible study group or a devotion, but it is a poor way develop doctrine. Using OSAS again, Scripture tells us…
I don’t need you to help me explain why OSAS is not taught in Scripture…I already know this. I can pull out the same verses you do that show this. How many proponents of OSAS has you convinced of their error by pointing to Scripture alone? I’m willing to bet NONE. Why is that? It’s because they believe Scripture fully supports their view of OSAS. Where does SS resolve this issue? Using SS, show me where this conundrum is resoved.
The dificulty is getting people to look at Scripture objectively and not trying to defend a doctrine they have grown comfortable with. Just because someone has a PhD. or is old doesn’t make them right (who was that guy last year predicting Jesus return, Camping or something). Fear of God is the beginning of knowledge, part of that fear is admitting we may be wrong and are willing to study more and more to either solidify or refute our beliefs.
Then what is the objective criteria by which you measure yourself to be more fearing of God and open to His instruction that someone else? Does Scripture give us this measing tool so that we can say, “…this person has not yet reached the mark, so his interpretation of Scripture will not be as good as this other one’s…” I believe you’d be hard pressed to find a Christian who believes in OSAS, for example, that would believe that he is not fearful of God and is not open to correction from God’s Word.
The context is the entire book which is being studied. Jesus said in John that the Father is greater than the Son and the Son can’t do anything the Father has not told him to do. Jehovah’s Witnesses point to this to deny Christ’s deity, yet the entire book of John point’s to Christ as our God and personal Savior. By reading more than cherry picked verses we see Jesus is talking about His human mission and how it was orchestrated by the Father. Jesus, in His human form is under the Father’s authority.
And? Every Christian I know that is willing to work to “prove” OSAS using SS firmly believes he is taking into consideration the entirety of the Bible. They believe they are reading all the verses in the proper context and see no conflict in Scripture regarding OSAS. It eventually boils down to your plain reading of the text vs. theirs. Where does SS resove this?
My first question would be, is the issue critical to salvation?..If it is critical to salvation then the answer is in Scripture.
Do you think a person’s belief that he cannot lose his salvation through future sins after having “been saved” is critical to salvation? Seems to me that if he is wrong…he might be in for a big disappointment when he dies. So, given that there are two opposing views regarding OSAS, both held by Christians who adhere to SS and believe they are correctly understanding God’s Word…please show me where SS resolves this issue.
 
luke 13:15
the lord answered him, “you hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water?

john 5:16
so, because jesus was doing these things on the sabbath, the jewish leaders began to persecute him.

john 5:18
for this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the sabbath, but he was even calling god his own father, making himself equal with god.

john 9:15-16
therefore the pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. “he put mud on my eyes,” the man replied, “and i washed, and now i see.”

some of the pharisees said, “this man is not from god, for **he does not keep the sabbath.” **
phineas, i would like to hear what your comments are in regard to the verses above, quoted in a previous post, that you conveniently ignored.
 
Phineas,

I am ready to join you…you are convincing…you have yet to answer my question…

All I am asking is are you a Seventh-Day Sabbatarian…because that is what your shouting here…you have yet to tell me what you think of Ellen White…now come on…fess up here…🙂
Phineas, here are some more questions you have conveniently ignored. I am anxious to hear your response. If you don’t respond, SILENCE SPEAKS VOLUMES!!!
 
Coptic Christian asked.
Phineas
]Just two questions?
Do you think Peter went to Church on Saturday?

If you mean by “church”, assembling together to observe the Sabbath in accordance with Isa 58:12-13. , then of course he did. He was no commandment breaker.
Note: Isa 68:12-13 gives an excellent description of Sabbath behavior.

Do you think Peter believed in Birth Control?

No, I don’t think he or any of the other apostles believed in birth control.

Phineas,
All I am asking is are you a Seventh-Day Sabbatarian…

Does it matter what affiliation,if any, I hold? If I told you I were a Catholic, or a 7th day Baptist , or an Adventist, or just a Bible following Christian, would that alter the veracity of my statements? I would rather we all just stick to the question posed by this thread: namely “what should a Christian do when tradition contradicts the word of God”?

I can see that those claiming to be staunch Catholics are looking more toward defending their church’s doctrine then they are in studying to see what the Bible really says. i would hope we would all put aside our various church affiliations and let the word of God show us His will.

The Spirit, through Paul, has told each of us to study for ourselves and search the scriptures

**2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. **
 
Porknpie said
Phineas, 20:7 provides early evidence that the believers came together on Sunday for instruction and the Eucharist. St. Paul was following the Lord’s instructions to preach the good news, it does not surprise me that he continued into the night as he was leaving the next day. The scripture does not say that they broke bread the next day but he prolonged his teaching, that he continued talking to them after the sacrament. Makes sense to me. He had journeyed a long way and all the books in the world could not hold all of what Jesus said and done. Again, logic tells me he would have talked to them into the night, prolonging his speech. I would have stayed up all night listening to St. Paul too.

Acts 20:7 only states that on this occasion the believers came together on the first day of the week to break bread and hear Paul talk. They did so because Paul was leaving the next day for an extended trip. It also states that they broke bread sometime around midnight on Monday morning. That is all it says. If Sunday were the Lord’s day and the day of partaking in the Eucharist, then Luke would not have called it the first day of the week and they would not have waited until Monday to break bread.

In addition, notice Acts 20:13, 14 “And we [Luke and the others except Paul] went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed, minding himself to go afoot. And when he met with us at Assos, we took him in, and came to Mitylene.”. So, Luke and others were not with Paul at the Sunday meeting, but were taking a ship to Assos to meet Paul there. At Paul’s request they were working on Sunday to bring a ship to meet Paul after his farewell meeting ended on Monday… “.

Sunday is the primary day of worship for sure, Revelation 1:10 is clear,
I do not understand your reasoning, here. Paul preached every Sabbath to both the Jews and Greek. See Acts 13:42 -44 ; Acts16:13; 1 Cor 18:4 The NT always calls the seventh day the Sabbath and Jesus said it was the Lord’s day. But the NT never mentions Paul preaching to Greeks on Sunday, a day the NT always called the "first day of the week’ and scripture never refers to Sunday as the Lord’s Day. Yet you, with absolutely no scriptural basis, insist that when John said he was in vision on the Lord’s Day ( the events of the book of Revelation being revealed to him), he,John, meant that he was keeping the Holy Eucharist on “the first day of the week”.- So now is now not really in vision but keeping the Eucharist and Jesus is now no longer Lord of the Sabbath, but Lord of Sunday. And you say you are sure of this despite scriptural evidence to the contrary???

Phineas, you reject scripture plainly stated. The Lord’s Day as a term was developed by the early church and was used in Revelation and has been understood in Revelation as the first day of the week for nearly 2000 years. What evidence do you have to the contrary to overturn 2000 years of biblical understanding and under what authority?

Jesus said the Lord’s day was the Sabbath. No where in scripture was Jesus stripped of His Lordship of the Sabbath. You are the one who is rejecting scripture and doing exactly what Jesus warned against- “laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men,”. (Mark 7:8 ) Yet, strangely, you charge me with rejecting scripture.
 
Does it matter what affiliation,if any, I hold?

This is rather convenient for you, isn’t it?
I can see that those claiming to be staunch Catholics are looking more toward defending their church’s doctrine then they are in studying to see what the Bible really says. i would hope we would all put aside our various church affiliations and let the word of God show us His will.
 
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