Please help refute this....Sola scripture vs Roman Catholicism

[Phineas]

Porknpie said
You are ignoring Acts 20:7 on breaking bread on Sunday. Jesus gave St Peter the keys to the kingdom, to bind and loose on earth. St. Peter as Christ’s prime minister on earth had the authority. The Sabbath was fulfilled by Christ and the new covenant recognizes Sunday the day of resurrection. You are at odds with 2000 years of Catholic, Orthodox and even reformation teaching. I always say when the Catholics and Reformation Protestants agree on something, you have to question the sand your house is built on.

As I mentioned earlier they broke bread on Monday, not Sunday, and they could have surely done it on Sunday if that had become a new requirement that you say Peter authorized.

No one on earth has the authority to change the Commandments of God. They are written in stone and they stand fast forever(Ex31:18 , Deut 9:10 and Psalm 111:7-8) God is the only lawgiver (James 4:12)

Because Catholics and Protestants agree on something does not make it truth. We should all be noble and search the scriptures to see if what they say is so. If what they agree on contradicts scripture it is not God’s will and they are both rejecting the commandments of God to follow the traditions of men.

The will of God also includes the instructions that the disciples should go out and “preach” the good news. Jesus never told them to write anything down. /COLOR].

Jesus told His disciples ," Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt 28:19-20
Jesus never commanded them to remove his Lordship from the Sabbath or break his commandments.

Where in the bible does it say that it is the final authority of truth? In fact, it doesn’t. Rather, 1 Timothy 3:15 says that the church is the pillar and bulwark of truth

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth****.
Tradition should never contradict God’s word , for then it would be contradicting the truth and of that would make it error not truth
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
A warning not to believe whatever contradicts scripture.

The true church does not change times and laws and uphold tradition over the inspired word of God. The true church is one that does HIs will by following His word.

 

[onemangang]

Phineas

I think you have taken the view that many BIBLE ONLY Christians should take, if one is of the belief that, there was never any conferring given by God, to men. If that be true, then the natural conclusion to your premise is logical.

Was authority given by God to men (the Church) through the person of Jesus Christ, the God Man?

If there was never any real authority given for Peter to partake in ie: the keys, (which a huge amount of Non-Catholics believe) then Christian worship on Sunday is a tradition of men, and all those who follow that tradition are following a Catholic Tradition. If they do worship on Sunday, then ergo, they are accepting that Authority has been given, to THE CHURCH Big C.

The interesting question to pose non-catholic Christians is "How is it that you reject the conferring of Peter with the Keys, yet follow a Tradition, that is contingent on Peter being conferred the Keys?"

 

[Phineas]

Ahs said,
The Bible is Truth and does not contradict itself, yet those relying on SS still come to opposing views which are both fully based on Scripture alone. This is an excellent reason to dismiss SS…no one can be certain that the opposing view is wrong because BOTH views are based on someone’s understanding of scripture.

Ahs, since you have agreed that the bible is truth and does not contradict itself, it must then follow that any doctrine, dogma or tradition of the church must by necessity not contradict the Bible in order to also be true. Anything that contradicts truth cannot be true.

That is why a basic rule of Bible interpretation is: “To understand doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know; then let every word have its proper influence; and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error.” If you find your doctrine contradicting any scripture it should be regarded as erroneous and dismissed.

When you read Matt 5:19 where Jesus says no one should break the least of the commandments or teach others to do so, that should be clear enough for any reasonable man to understand. Add to that Psm 111:8, where the commandments are said to stand fast forever and ever , and you have indisputable evidence that changing or removing a commandment of God is forbidden by God. There are many other verses attesting to the immutability of the commandments, as well
You may argue for a doctrine that allows tradition to violate scripture , but then what you are really saying is that tradition is allowed to contradict truth and therefore does not have to be true.

Ahs said "…no one can be certain that the opposing view is wrong because BOTH views are based on someone’s understanding of what Scripture is really saying. How does SS resolve this issue?

Be careful in your analysis here, for what you are really saying is that no one can be sure of what is really true. But Jesus said if you did His will you would know the truth. (John 7:17 and 8:31-31) Many people want to know the truth without doing His will, and say they love Him without keeping His commandments (John 14:15).Paul says the scriptures can make you wise unto salvation (2Tim 3:15) and Jesus says you will err in not knowing the scriptures (Matt 22:29) These are powerful verses given validity to sola scriptura and that the Lord has made provision for us to know the truth.

If the doctrines of the Catholic church do not violate scripture , why would you be so adamant in your dislike for SS? If your doctrines are pure, SS would be a powerful argument for your beliefs. The only people who would object to SS would be those who cannot validate their doctrines or traditions through the inspired word of God. Sola scriptura is the great truth detector for it compares all doctrine to the Bible, and you have already agreed that the Bible is truth.
When you say “no one can be certain” then you are contradicting Christ’s statements saying we are to know the truth : John 8:32 “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Phineas said: Knowing the truth depends on your sincerity and depth of study.
Ahs then asked: Says who? Does the Bible say this? Or is this just an opinion? Using SS, please demonstrate this for me.

Sincerity Jerm 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Depth of Study 2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Remember, SS is not against tradition in general, but rather against tradition that contradicts the scriptures, for anything that contradicts the truth is a lie…

 

[CopticChristian]

Ahs said,
The Bible is Truth and does not contradict itself, yet those relying on SS still come to opposing views which are both fully based on Scripture alone. This is an excellent reason to dismiss SS…no one can be certain that the opposing view is wrong because BOTH views are based on someone’s understanding of scripture.

Ahs, since you have agreed that the bible is truth and does not contradict itself, it must then follow that any doctrine, dogma or tradition of the church must by necessity not contradict the Bible in order to also be true. Anything that contradicts truth cannot be true.

That is why a basic rule of Bible interpretation is: “To understand doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know; then let every word have its proper influence; and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error.” If you find your doctrine contradicting any scripture it should be regarded as erroneous and dismissed.

When you read Matt 5:19 where Jesus says no one should break the least of the commandments or teach others to do so, that should be clear enough for any reasonable man to understand. Add to that Psm 111:8, where the commandments are said to stand fast forever and ever , and you have indisputable evidence that changing or removing a commandment of God is forbidden by God. There are many other verses attesting to the immutability of the commandments, as well
You may argue for a doctrine that allows tradition to violate scripture , but then what you are really saying is that tradition is allowed to contradict truth and therefore does not have to be true.

Ahs said "…no one can be certain that the opposing view is wrong because BOTH views are based on someone’s understanding of what Scripture is really saying. How does SS resolve this issue?

Be careful in your analysis here, for what you are really saying is that no one can be sure of what is really true. But Jesus said if you did His will you would know the truth. (John 7:17 and 8:31-31) Many people want to know the truth without doing His will, and say they love Him without keeping His commandments (John 14:15).Paul says the scriptures can make you wise unto salvation (2Tim 3:15) and Jesus says you will err in not knowing the scriptures (Matt 22:29) These are powerful verses given validity to sola scriptura and that the Lord has made provision for us to know the truth.

If the doctrines of the Catholic church do not violate scripture , why would you be so adamant in your dislike for SS? If your doctrines are pure, SS would be a powerful argument for your beliefs. The only people who would object to SS would be those who cannot validate their doctrines or traditions through the inspired word of God. Sola scriptura is the great truth detector for it compares all doctrine to the Bible, and you have already agreed that the Bible is truth.
When you say “no one can be certain” then you are contradicting Christ’s statements saying we are to know the truth : John 8:32 “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Phineas said: Knowing the truth depends on your sincerity and depth of study.
Ahs then asked: Says who? Does the Bible say this? Or is this just an opinion? Using SS, please demonstrate this for me.

Sincerity Jerm 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Depth of Study 2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Remember, SS is not against tradition in general, but rather against tradition that contradicts the scriptures, for anything that contradicts the truth is a lie…

Phineas,

Did you go to Church Today…it is Saturday?

Did Ellen White teach anything that contradicted Scripture?

 

[Patavium]

Phineas,
All I am asking is are you a Seventh-Day Sabbatarian…

Does it matter what affiliation,if any, I hold? If I told you I were a Catholic, or a 7th day Baptist , or an Adventist, or just a Bible following Christian, would that alter the veracity of my statements? I would rather we all just stick to the question posed by this thread: namely “what should a Christian do when tradition contradicts the word of God”?

I can see that those claiming to be staunch Catholics are looking more toward defending their church’s doctrine then they are in studying to see what the Bible really says. i would hope we would all put aside our various church affiliations and let the word of God show us His will.

The Spirit, through Paul, has told each of us to study for ourselves and search the scriptures

**2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. **

Really Phineas? You are a Catholic?. Good to know. 7th Day Sabbatarians are false teachers, and have false prophets. :yup:

 

[Farsight001]

As I mentioned earlier they broke bread on Monday, not Sunday, and they could have surely done it on Sunday if that had become a new requirement that you say Peter authorized.

Wait a minute. You are saying that they broke bread on Monday? Acts 20:7 says that they broke bread “on the first day of the week”. Are you prepared to conclude that Monday is, thus, the first day of the week, understanding that this would thus make Sunday the seventh day of the week, and thus it, not Saturday, would be the sabbath?

No one on earth has the authority to change the Commandments of God. They are written in stone and they stand fast forever(Ex31:18 , Deut 9:10 and Psalm 111:7-8) God is the only lawgiver (James 4:12)

And no one on earth did.

Because Catholics and Protestants agree on something does not make it truth. We should all be noble and search the scriptures to see if what they say is so. If what they agree on contradicts scripture it is not God’s will and they are both rejecting the commandments of God to follow the traditions of men.

Jesus told His disciples ," Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt 28:19-20
Jesus never commanded them to remove his Lordship from the Sabbath or break his commandments.

This has nothing to do with not being told to write things down.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth****.
Tradition should never contradict God’s word , for then it would be contradicting the truth and of that would make it error not truth
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
A warning not to believe whatever contradicts scripture.

You were asked where the bible says it is the final authority. None of your verses even remotely imply that.

The true church does not change times and laws and uphold tradition over the inspired word of God.

It sure as hell does if God wants them changed.

 

[CopticChristian]

Wait a minute. You are saying that they broke bread on Monday? Acts 20:7 says that they broke bread “on the first day of the week”. Are you prepared to conclude that Monday is, thus, the first day of the week, understanding that this would thus make Sunday the seventh day of the week, and thus it, not Saturday, would be the sabbath?

And no one on earth did.

Because Catholics and Protestants agree on something does not make it truth. We should all be noble and search the scriptures to see if what they say is so. If what they agree on contradicts scripture it is not God’s will and they are both rejecting the commandments of God to follow the traditions of men.

This has nothing to do with not being told to write things down.

You were asked where the bible says it is the final authority. None of your verses even remotely imply that.

It sure as hell does if God wants them changed.

Farsight,

You are brilliant…if Monday is the first day of the week…then Ellen White is wrong.

 

[Barelohim]

I offer this to the subject. IF Peter were made head of the church, why does Peter not even mention it, in both of his letters? Secondly, Paul, who knew Peter quite well, never mentions this event about Peter in all his letters.

Would one not think that such an event would not have been mentioned more in all the letters of the New testament?

I offer that the rock Jesus was speaking of was the * Revelation from God, to Peter, as to who Christ was", is the rock on which the church of christ is built… Paul mentions several times, that *By a revelation from God! " He came to know, or go!

This is what Paul was explaining in 1 Corinthians 2… As to how believers are to have the mind of the Lord on matters, because they are spiritually discerned! " They that are led of the Spirit, are the sons of God. Romans 8…

Jesus said His Spirit will lead one into all truth, and reveal Christ to the believer. John 14.

Sincerely In Christ
Barelohim.

 

[CopticChristian]

I offer this to the subject. IF Peter were made head of the church, why does Peter not even mention it, in both of his letters? Secondly, Paul, who knew Peter quite well, never mentions this event about Peter in all his letters.

Would one not think that such an event would not have been mentioned more in all the letters of the New testament?

I offer that the rock Jesus was speaking of was the * Revelation from God, to Peter, as to who Christ was", is the rock on which the church of christ is built… Paul mentions several times, that *By a revelation from God! " He came to know, or go!

This is what Paul was explaining in 1 Corinthians 2… As to how believers are to have the mind of the Lord on matters, because they are spiritually discerned! " They that are led of the Spirit, are the sons of God. Romans 8…

Jesus said His Spirit will lead one into all truth, and reveal Christ to the believer. John 14.

Sincerely In Christ
Barelohim.

Peter did not mention it due to humility. Why brag?

Paul did not mention it because he told you that the Church is the Pillar and foundation of truth through which the manifold wisdom of God is known and he wanted you to become a fellow heir with Christ through the Church and when you joined the Church you would have been told as were all the Christians and ECF.

So the problem you and Protestants have is trying to read into a book what you want to believe and cannot see because you don’t look and see what the Church is and has done.

 

[JonNC]

=Barelohim;9554444]I offer this to the subject. IF Peter were made head of the church, why does Peter not even mention it, in both of his letters? Secondly, Paul, who knew Peter quite well, never mentions this event about Peter in all his letters.

Would one not think that such an event would not have been mentioned more in all the letters of the New testament?

this is because Christ warned the disciples not to establish a “pecking order”.

I offer that the rock Jesus was speaking of was the * Revelation from God, to Peter, as to who Christ was", is the rock on which the church of christ is built… Paul mentions several times, that *By a revelation from God! " He came to know, or go!

While I essentially agree, I find it theological gymnatics to not at least recognize that it is Peter who says these words, and Peter whose name was changed. Then again, I also see it as theological gymnatics to transform this into universal jurisdiction.

Jesus said His Spirit will lead one into all truth, and reveal Christ to the believer. John 14.

Indeed He did. He also established the Church to this end.

Jon

 

[Barelohim]

Peter did not mention it due to humility. Why brag?

Paul did not mention it because he told you that the Church is the Pillar and foundation of truth through which the manifold wisdom of God is known and he wanted you to become a fellow heir with Christ through the Church and when you joined the Church you would have been told as were all the Christians and ECF.

So the problem you and Protestants have is trying to read into a book what you want to believe and cannot see because you don’t look and see what the Church is and has done.

Seems Paul missed this too? Even when he refuted Peter to his face, calling him a hypocrite?

The Church is not a denomination. But a many member body of believers all over the world. We, the believers in Chrsit are the Church, the Body of Christ, the Bride in preparation for the Bridegroom…

Sincerely IN Christ
Barelohim…

 

[Barelohim]

Indeed He did. He also established the Church to this end.

Jon

Seems the church has taken over from the Holy Spirit!

1 John 2:24 As for you, let that abide in you which ye heard from the beginning. If that which ye heard from the beginning abide in you, ye also shall abide in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise which he promised us, even the life eternal.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that would lead you astray.
27 And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

Sincerely IN Christ Jesus our High Priest.
Barelohim.

 

[JonNC]

Seems the church has taken over from the Holy Spirit!

How so? the Spirit moves through the Church, preaching the word, administering the sacrament. It seems to me the Church is not only the congregation of saints (believers), but also the tool the Spirit uses for the purposes of salvation.

Jon

 

[CopticChristian]

Indeed He did. He also established the Church to this end.

Jon

Seems the church has taken over from the Holy Spirit!

1 John 2:24 As for you, let that abide in you which ye heard from the beginning. If that which ye heard from the beginning abide in you, ye also shall abide in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise which he promised us, even the life eternal.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that would lead you astray.
27 And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

Sincerely IN Christ Jesus our High Priest.
Barelohim.

Barelohim,

Since you are quoting the Bible. Where did this Bible come from and how is it you have it in your hands to read and quote?

 

[Patavium]

Barelohim,

Since you are quoting the Bible. Where did this Bible come from and how is it you have it in your hands to read and quote?

Oh oh oh!!! I know this one. Is it the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[JRKH]

Seems Paul missed this too? Even when he refuted Peter to his face, calling him a hypocrite?

The Church is not a denomination. But a many member body of believers all over the world. We, the believers in Chrsit are the Church, the Body of Christ, the Bride in preparation for the Bridegroom…

Sincerely IN Christ
Barelohim…

Here we come very quickly to the crux of the matter - the definition of “church” or “ekklesia” as it is given and seen in the Bible. It is a matter very dear to me for it is the one thing that led me - through Scripture - straight into the Catholic Church…

Now - I will preface the following with this statement. I do not mind discussions regarding the specific role of the Pontiff for that discussion was going on long before the Protestant reformation occurred. That is primarily a matter of structure. What such discussions DO though is to detract from something very much more important and frankly much more clearly expressed…in Scripture…

After all of the trading back and forth of this and that verse, meaning, interpretation translation etc…the ultimate question will have to be - which of our personal, prayerful, “Spirit Guided” - and yet conflicting understandings is correct? How do we resolve this issue? Who has the authority to determine???

What does Scripture say???

Scripture says it is “The Church”

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth (1 Tim 3:15)
The Church has authority to bind and loose - whatever (Mt 16:17-19) (Mt 18:15-18)
The Church settles arguments between distant church communities in a wonderful example of the instructions given in Mt 18…(Acts 15)
The Church is the vehicle by which God reveals His Wisdom to the world. (Eph 3:8-12)
Christ and the Apostles exhort the faithful to unity…to be of one mind

John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

All of these calls to unity, along with the instructions in the Gospel of Matthew and the example in Acts as well as Paul’s presenting his teachings to Peter and others to assure they are correct, the Church being the Pillar etc…All point clearly to doctrinal unity within a visible and authoritative Church.

Now - if you can offer equally compelling evidence from Scripture “church” as you define it. I would love for you to share it with us.

Peace
James

 

[Barelohim]

How so? the Spirit moves through the Church, preaching the word, administering the sacrament. It seems to me the Church is not only the congregation of saints (believers), but also the tool the Spirit uses for the purposes of salvation.

Jon

Hmmm, I thought salvation was through a work of Christ Jesus, done once for all who will receive.

Sincerely In Christ our salvation.

barelohim.

 

[CopticChristian]

Oh oh oh!!! I know this one. Is it the Roman Catholic Church?

Pat,

Your name is not Baelohim!!!

However you will get a gold star on your report card.

 

[Barelohim]

Here we come very quickly to the crux of the matter - the definition of “church” or “ekklesia” as it is given and seen in the Bible. It is a matter very dear to me for it is the one thing that led me - through Scripture - straight into the Catholic Church…

Now - I will preface the following with this statement. I do not mind discussions regarding the specific role of the Pontiff for that discussion was going on long before the Protestant reformation occurred. That is primarily a matter of structure. What such discussions DO though is to detract from something very much more important and frankly much more clearly expressed…in Scripture…

After all of the trading back and forth of this and that verse, meaning, interpretation translation etc…the ultimate question will have to be - which of our personal, prayerful, “Spirit Guided” - and yet conflicting understandings is correct? How do we resolve this issue? Who has the authority to determine???

What does Scripture say???

Scripture says it is “The Church”

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth (1 Tim 3:15)
The Church has authority to bind and loose - whatever (Mt 16:17-19) (Mt 18:15-18)
The Church settles arguments between distant church communities in a wonderful example of the instructions given in Mt 18…(Acts 15)
The Church is the vehicle by which God reveals His Wisdom to the world. (Eph 3:8-12)
Christ and the Apostles exhort the faithful to unity…to be of one mind

John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

All of these calls to unity, along with the instructions in the Gospel of Matthew and the example in Acts as well as Paul’s presenting his teachings to Peter and others to assure they are correct, the Church being the Pillar etc…All point clearly to doctrinal unity within a visible and authoritative Church.

Now - if you can offer equally compelling evidence from Scripture “church” as you define it. I would love for you to share it with us.

Peace
James

James…We have a witness to the truth…and not just one, "for let all things be confirmed by two or more witnesses…

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
8 For there are three who bear witness,** the Spirit, and the water, and the blood:** and the three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for the witness of God is this, that he hath borne witness concerning his Son.

Sincerely In Christ, Our High Priest
Barelohim.

 

[Patavium]

Hmmm, I thought salvation was through a work of Christ Jesus, done once for all who will receive.

Sincerely In Christ our salvation.

barelohim.

Let me guess… you believe in Once Saved Always Saved… , also in saved by faith alone, right?