Please help with embarassing questions

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Anonymous2

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There is no real way to be delicate about this extremely embarassing question, so please pardon me:

Is there any circumstance under which someone, while sanitizing themselves after going to the bathroom, could be guilty of the sin against nature (the one mentioned in Genesis 18-19) by himself?

I realize this probably sounds like a ridiculous question. Nevertheless, by way of explanation, I am having many terrible fears about what needs to be confessed and what not. In recent months I have made 3 long, general Confessions averaging nearly an hour each and sometimes more. I would still be making them were I not stopped by the third confessor under obedience. Many of these did and still do consist of various horrific thoughts; blasphemies, heresies, impure and lustful thoughts, and a third category, thoughts which involve unnatural and heinous acts of many types against the 6th commandment, such as that dealing with my question above.

I confess these repeatedly every week, making nearly an identical Confession each time, it seems, with no improvement, no apparent change, frequent temptations to despair and give up the Faith, and often seemingly deterred from doing so only by the fear of Hell.

This problem did not exist, or at least not in the same intensity, in the past (as in, before a few years ago) and I am not sure what set it off, but it leads me to ask questions like the above to be sure I don’t make a sacrilegious Confession (I have many similar questions which I will omit for now).
 
You appear to be suffering from a severe case of scrupulosity. Two things should be done: First, find one priest who is competent to help you with your scruples and confess to him exclusively and obey whatever he tells you. Second, because scrupulosity and obsessive compulsive disorder often go hand in hand, get to a doctor to be evaluated for OCD. If you are diagnosed with OCD and properly treated, your scruples will probably also come under control.

I know this is a terrible trial for you. God bless you.

Betsy
 
Tell the priest what you said in your first paragraph. To avoid the sin in the future, follow the priest’s advice, and also invoke the Blessed Mother to free you from a temptation **as soon as you have **one. This goes for any sin! Invoke her to stop the source of your temptation until it goes away.

There are many other methods, you can find suggestions in this forum in many of the sexual sin threads. Go ahead and do a search! 👍
 
Sometimes sharing in a group that deals with lust and even sex addiction helps, but even there you don’t have to go into a lot of detail. Although I can not speak as a representative of SA, Sexaholics Anonymous, it is an execllent program to help with the problem of lust. Of course, nothing beats the Power of the Sacraments, but God uses other people and He most definately uses programs of recovery.

Programs like this help you get at the root cause and give you support. You can most likely find a group near you from the Website below or call the number provided at the Website for more information.

Steve

sa.org/
 
From a fellow scrupulous person: I feel your pain.
Have you looked up the 10 commandments for the scrupulous? Somebody here posted those to me once, and they made a lot of sense…

Kathrin
 
Is it possible for someone to address the original question with a “yes” or “no”?

Part of the reason I ask is because, due to embarrassment, there are many things I would much rather find out to be sinful or not sinful beforehand so as not to have to ask in Confession. Even in the course of one week, the list of things I write down on a sheet as a reminder for the Confession grows very large.

Finding regular confessors is quite difficult. There are been numerous cases where priests have not validly absolved, have made up their own (invalid) forms of absolution, have given advice or said things which are unquestionably unsound doctrinally and theologically, etc. This is not the Church of 60 years ago, where many priests had solid formation in St. Alphonsus’s moral theology.

About the Scrupulous Anonymous page; in reading some of the commentaries once again I have seen things which are doctrinally false. I can provide references if necessary. On one occasion the writer of the newsletter offered praise for a priest whose work was condemned by the CDF.

The problem in seeking out psychological aid for such issues is that one of the treatments involved in “treating” repetitive unwanted thoughts (such as blasphemy, heresy, impure thoughts, etc.) is a behavioral technique which involves deliberately thinking the bad thoughts while trying not to have a reaction of anxiety. Over time the thoughts evidently lose their hold as the thinker no longer reacts to them with anxiety.

Quite obviously it would never be permissible for a Catholic to take up treatment which involves committing grievous sin, and deliberately calling to mind blasphemies would indeed be sinful.

To repeat; if anyone could give a clear “yes” or “no” to the original question, I would appreciate it.
 
Anonymous2 said:
To repeat; if anyone could give a clear “yes” or “no” to the original question, I would appreciate it.
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The answer is No.

A person with your degree of scrupulosity and OCD should not second guess your confessor or the scrupulous anonymous recommendations.

The reason you go to confession is to take the burden of analysis off of you and place it on the confessor. Do not second guess. Do not try to be your own moral theologian.
 
Anonymous2 said:
To repeat; if anyone could give a clear “yes” or “no” to the original question, I would appreciate it.
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I think only you and God could answer that. You have to determine whether there was lewd conduct. If you felt guilt, there probably was.
 
Also I can’t remember the website…maybe someone could post it…that let you search by city/zip for mass times and/or confession times in your area.
 
Anonymous2 said:
Is it possible for someone to address the original question with a “yes” or “no”?

Part of the reason I ask is because, due to embarrassment, there are many things I would much rather find out to be sinful or not sinful beforehand so as not to have to ask in Confession. Even in the course of one week, the list of things I write down on a sheet as a reminder for the Confession grows very large.

Finding regular confessors is quite difficult. There are been numerous cases where priests have not validly absolved, have made up their own (invalid) forms of absolution, have given advice or said things which are unquestionably unsound doctrinally and theologically, etc. This is not the Church of 60 years ago, where many priests had solid formation in St. Alphonsus’s moral theology.

About the Scrupulous Anonymous page; in reading some of the commentaries once again I have seen things which are doctrinally false. I can provide references if necessary. On one occasion the writer of the newsletter offered praise for a priest whose work was condemned by the CDF.

The problem in seeking out psychological aid for such issues is that one of the treatments involved in “treating” repetitive unwanted thoughts (such as blasphemy, heresy, impure thoughts, etc.) is a behavioral technique which involves deliberately thinking the bad thoughts while trying not to have a reaction of anxiety. Over time the thoughts evidently lose their hold as the thinker no longer reacts to them with anxiety.

Quite obviously it would never be permissible for a Catholic to take up treatment which involves committing grievous sin, and deliberately calling to mind blasphemies would indeed be sinful.

To repeat; if anyone could give a clear “yes” or “no” to the original question, I would appreciate it.
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You cannot commit a sin without intending to do it. So, unless you want to, the answer is “no.”

As for the remainder of this post, it shows that, at some level, you do not want to be helped. This is truly tragic, because Jesus is waiting for you, with love and mercy that exceed all our imaginings.

Just so you know, there is other treatment available for OCD. Certain medications are extremely effective in reducing the unwanted thoughts, without your having to desensitize yourself to them. Please think again about going to a doctor - an M.D. who can prescribe medications.

Betsy
 
JimG said:
The answer is No.
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Just so I have it right, this “no” refers to the very first sentences in the first post of this thread?

I wish to be clear about what I am speaking, and I assume the current description is, but speaking objectively, is the matter I described grave?
A person with your degree of scrupulosity and OCD should not second guess your confessor or the scrupulous anonymous recommendations.
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As I mentioned, after making the third large general confession, I was placed under obedience not to make any more. I have not. I was also told not to revisit the past, but the problem is that I continue to remember things which seem to be seriously sinful from the past. I fear not confessing these things for obvious reasons (Hell).

The other problem is that many confessors will give general advice regarding thoughts. Often this will be “Think of something else,” “Ignore it,” “Say a prayer,” and similar counsels.

The most unhelpful point of all, seen frequently in discussions of this nature, is “As long as you didn’t willfully entertain the thought, it’s not a sin.”

This is the entire point; it never seems possible to know, with CERTAINTY (and certainty is the only thing that helps here), whether or not one has consented. It is easy afterwards to say “I did not want that thought.” When it is upon you, though, it seems impossible.

And certainty is not impossible with other things. If one turns the head to look at a scantily clad women, it is a CERTAIN consent of the will to sin. Not so easy to determine this with thoughts.

As for Scrupulous Anonymous, while many have suggested it, I respond with 2 points:
  1. As I mentioned, there seem to be doctrinal problems.
For example, from one of their issues:
Father Leonard Boff, a wonderful
Franciscan theologian and missionary, wrote in
a reflection about missionaries at work in Latin
America, “not a single missionary was aware
that the God the church proclaimed was a cul-
tural image.”
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Fr. Boff, a liberation theologian whose works earned the CDF’s censure, is clearly not a “wonderful” theologian.

I can give similar examples regarding Church teaching on sacramental validity and form. The other problem is that, according to the guidelines they lay out and the replies to questions they give, it seems almost impossible to sin. Every person who writes in is treated as though they suffered torturous scrupulosity and were completely incapable, short of some sort of serial killing spree, of committing sin. I exaggerate, of course, but the advice is of doubtful authenticity.
  1. I have no permission to follow their guidelines. If a confessor were to give a clear and certain rule about these sins of thought, which are occupying the majority of the confession time, it would be possible to follow it. But they don’t, and so the problem continues.
The reason you go to confession is to take the burden of analysis off of you and place it on the confessor. Do not second guess. Do not try to be your own moral theologian.
 
baltobetsy said:
You cannot commit a sin without intending to do it. So, unless you want to, the answer is “no.”
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My question was about the objective matter described in the first post and whether that could, under any circumstances, be sinful. As I said, due to embarrassment it is difficult for me to give more detail, but what is written should be sufficient.
As for the remainder of this post, it shows that, at some level, you do not want to be helped.
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I assure you that I wouldn’t have made two fairly long trips to get to certainly orthodox confessors (the FSSP and the ICK) and in order to avoid the sometimes heretical output of the diocesan priests if I didn’t want a solution to the problem. It has become impossible to receive Holy Communion, pray or make a meditation about most any topic other than sin, judgment, Hell, or otherwise lead a normal Catholic life.
Just so you know, there is other treatment available for OCD. Certain medications are extremely effective in reducing the unwanted thoughts, without your having to desensitize yourself to them. Please think again about going to a doctor - an M.D. who can prescribe medications.
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I am not a psychologist, but what I have read suggests that medicine does not work sufficiently without the accompanying behavior treatment. And most psychologists, being indifferent or overtly hostile to the Faith, will not be of service in that department.
 
The problem with scrupulosity is that it is extremely over-reactive to moral issues, in that it sees sin where there is no sin.

It also sees bad advice where there is no bad advice.

In short, a scrupulous person sees sin where there is none; and when told by the confessor that there is none, questions the legitimacy of the confessor.

You need to get help from at least one, if not two places; the first is that you need to get a confessor (and stay with him) who thoroughly understands scrupulosity, and then follow exactly what he says; the second is that you need to get a competent psychologist or psychiatrist who practices in the area of scrupulosity, and follow their advice under the guidance of your confessor.

This is a problem that is far heavier than most people understand, one that can have serious and even deadly consequences, and one that you are incapable of dealing with on your own.

No matter what answer you get on thie specific issue at hand, it is not going to help; even supposing for the moment that it “answers” your question, you will simply move on to the next question.

Please, for your own sake, get professional help.
 
Anonymous2 said:
It has become impossible to receive Holy Communion, pray or make a meditation about most any topic other than sin, judgment, Hell, or otherwise lead a normal Catholic life.
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This to me sounds like a spiritual warfare. Although I agree with other posters that there is clearly a psychological problem evidence here, the two go together. One can judge by the fruit. If the result is what you describe here above, then the devil will be clapping.
Anonymous2 said:
I am not a psychologist, but what I have read suggests that medicine does not work sufficiently without the accompanying behavior treatment. And most psychologists, being indifferent or overtly hostile to the Faith, will not be of service in that department.
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Don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. There are some good therapists that are not hostile to God, and there are good Christian therapists. I encourage you to trust that God will lead you, and to look diligently. I also encourage you to seek out a Life in the Spirit Seminar in your area. Praying in the Spirit is an excellent remedy for maladies of this kind.
 
Anonymous2 said:
Just so I have it right, this “no” refers to the very first sentences in the first post of this thread?
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You asked whether there is “any circumstance” under which this could be a sin. From a moral theology standpoint, the answer could be quite nuanced, but I gave a simple “No.” What I meant was that YOU did not sin; the last thing a person afflicted with scrupulosity needs is nuance.

In fact, the more you read about the nuances and categories and conditions of sin, the worse your scrupulosity will become.

I agree that Fr Boff, a “liberation theologian” is not someone to look to for guidance. It sounds as though some experience of his was being used as an example; but I wouldn’t worry about that. You don’t have to worry about that.

You say that you have made three general confessions within a short period of time. That’s two too many.

No one here can give you spiritual advice by internet; it’s not a good idea. Even if you think your confessor is too liberal, follow his spiritual advice.
.
 
otjm said:
the first is that you need to get a confessor (and stay with him) who thoroughly understands scrupulosity, and then follow exactly what he says; the second is that you need to get a competent psychologist or psychiatrist who practices in the area of scrupulosity, and follow their advice under the guidance of your confessor.
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I appreciate the advice.

It is certainly not easy to find the type of confessor you describe; certainly the current situation in the Church does not help the problem. There are many, many threads probably on this very forum, and my own personal experience certainly supports it, that there are priests who truly give spiritually HARMFUL advice in the confessional. A simple search, for instance, would reveal the substantial number of priests who counsel penitents by telling them that the use of artificial contraception or the sin of self-abuse either are not mortally sinful (they are) or are not sinful at all.

What happens to the soul who, following the standard “Trust your confessor,” proceeds to push out of mind the idea that such grievous sins are, in fact, sinful? The same is true of absolution; I have found that any number of priests seem simply unwilling to do something so simple as pronounce the valid form of absolution, “I absolve you.” Without those words, there is no absolution, and yet there have been multiple cases I have encountered, including one after a general confession, where priests have entirely omitted that valid form.

Finding a good confessor, in other words, seems to be an extraordinary task.
 
Anonymous2 said:
I appreciate the advice.

It is certainly not easy to find the type of confessor you describe; certainly the current situation in the Church does not help the problem. There are many, many threads probably on this very forum, and my own personal experience certainly supports it, that there are priests who truly give spiritually HARMFUL advice in the confessional. A simple search, for instance, would reveal the substantial number of priests who counsel penitents by telling them that the use of artificial contraception or the sin of self-abuse either are not mortally sinful (they are) or are not sinful at all.

What happens to the soul who, following the standard “Trust your confessor,” proceeds to push out of mind the idea that such grievous sins are, in fact, sinful? The same is true of absolution; I have found that any number of priests seem simply unwilling to do something so simple as pronounce the valid form of absolution, “I absolve you.” Without those words, there is no absolution, and yet there have been multiple cases I have encountered, including one after a general confession, where priests have entirely omitted that valid form.

Finding a good confessor, in other words, seems to be an extraordinary task.
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Here’s the thing - the priest is the final say, regardless of whether you FEEL he is good or orthodox. There are some things a priest might say which you will KNOW (remember about the certainty?) are against Catholic teaching. If your priest has told you that ABC is acceptable, masturbation is okey dokey, or pre-marital sex is not longer a sin, then clearly he is expressing heterdox beliefs. Has your priest actually advised you in this way? If not, you are simply projecting fears and worries about “bad” priests and fostering suspicion where none is warranted.

If your priest is adhering to Catholic teaching (as it sounds) but falling short in the counselling and advice arena, then you are free to continue searching for one who might be better at this. However, such a priest is still the last word on the state of your soul when you leave that confessional. You are absolved of sin and need not worry about it again. Second guessing a priest who is faithful to Catholic teaching is a form of pride and arrogance. They are there precisely to discern the culpability of our sins and to provide absolution. End of story.
 
MarcoPolo said:
I think only you and God could answer that. You have to determine whether there was lewd conduct. If you felt guilt, there probably was.
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NO NO NO – a thousand times NO!!!

The scrupulous are wracked with guilt; this is not an effective compass!

From the 10 commandments for the scrupulous: unless you are absolutely certain that you committed a mortal sin, don’t confess it!

Peace,
Dante
 
Anonymous2 said:
I appreciate the advice.

It is certainly not easy to find the type of confessor you describe; certainly the current situation in the Church does not help the problem. There are many, many threads probably on this very forum, and my own personal experience certainly supports it, that there are priests who truly give spiritually HARMFUL advice in the confessional. A simple search, for instance, would reveal the substantial number of priests who counsel penitents by telling them that the use of artificial contraception or the sin of self-abuse either are not mortally sinful (they are) or are not sinful at all.

What happens to the soul who, following the standard “Trust your confessor,” proceeds to push out of mind the idea that such grievous sins are, in fact, sinful? The same is true of absolution; I have found that any number of priests seem simply unwilling to do something so simple as pronounce the valid form of absolution, “I absolve you.” Without those words, there is no absolution, and yet there have been multiple cases I have encountered, including one after a general confession, where priests have entirely omitted that valid form.

Finding a good confessor, in other words, seems to be an extraordinary task.
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We could get into an interesting discussion about moral theology, but you by your own admission are scrupulous, and scrupulosity is by its very nature not able to distinguish nuances. I don’t want to go down the path of “he said she said”; but I will tell you that people have a terrible habit of making “short hand” statements out of something that was not as blac and white as they relate it. I know, because I have challenged too many people on what they said they were told. So let’s not go down the path of presuming that a substantial number of priests have a very ambiguous grasp of moral theology.

The second issue is that sacramental theology is not so narrowly construed as you would have it. Absolution is not magic - that is, it is not contined withing some sort of “magic” formula; if you go to confession and the preist doesn’t say exactly the formula that you expect, you are still absolved. God is not bound by a formula; and neither you nor the priest can so bind Him. Again, this is your scrupulosity kicking in. In short, you are not capable, because of the problem, of making a valid judgement, but your scrupulosity is getting in the way. Please, in all seriousness, get help, or you will never approach anything near peace of mind. That is part of what we should acheive in Reconcilliation.

God bless!
 
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