Please help

[guanophore]

There’s no logical way to explain why religion is necessary to a person like me (someone who refuses to believe in something without proof)…

I believe in a God …

Can you please explain why you believe in a God? What logical proof do you have?

 

[PJM]

rk27

Ok. I wouldn’t necessarily call myself a catholic anymore, but I’m trying to figure out why it’s so hard for me to believe in something I was taught from a very early age and even studied fervently for a while.

Ok, let’s give it a try!

Why is Mass necessary?

Taking you at your wish: I’ll simply share the Official position of the CC without backup references. Should you like them, just let me know.

What was it Christ did for three years of His Ministry? He taught by word and example. That task is precisely what has been passed on to the Apostles and His Church. It’s critical to understand that it Remains every bit as much Christ Church today as on the day that he founded it and out Peter in charge.

*One does not simply absorb naturally the Teachings of Christ necessary for Ones Salvation. That is one of the two reasons [ignoring for the moment the 1st. And 2nd. Commandments which requires it]; which is the primary ministry of the CC given to it specifically by Christ Himself. The second reason is to access the fountain of sacramental Grace; that living in a secular world makes an absolute necessity to take advantage of in-order-to stay in the “State of Grace” [w/o unconfessed; unforgiven Mortal sins]; also necessary for Ones salvation. *

In other words, why is sitting in mass better than taking an hour out of my Sunday to do something good for someone else (grant it i generally don’t, but for arguments sake).

Because being where God REALLY is, remains far better Spiritually than where you choose to meet God. A relationship with God CAN ONLY COME ON HIS TERMS. You have to meet God FIRST on His terms to have even a slight chance of Him meeting you on yours. Either God is in charge or you are; cannot be both ways!

Faith?? I’m a man of science. I’m in med school right now and, although I can be an idiot at times, I generally consider … BUT, if we’re talking about the God I learned about in grammar school, why is faith necessary?

You supply part of the answer yourself: Even as a scientist you have discovered things you can’t, and some you NEVER will understand. Yet the existence of these realities; and there complexity ought to make any reasonable; truthful and logical person come to the conclusion you reached. The answer lies in the FACT that everything that touches God; and everything God touches has an element of LOVE attached to it. Love my friend requires absolutely and in every instance: a Mind; an Intellect, and a FREEWILL [and a soul as the animator of all life forms… even though humanities is far more complex than that.] The kicker here is that while everyone [humanity ONLY] has these attributes which can be demonstrated but not quantified; BECAUSE they are SPIRITUAL THINGS [which must come from other Spiritual-Things], means that what I choose to call GOD does exist and is GOOD.

Why doesn’t God reveal himself like he supposedly did 2000 years ago and give proof to this religion.

Everything that is actually mandated for belief has a supportable basis: He has, does and shall continue to until the end of time. GOOGLE “Eucharistic Miracles.” I can provide much evidence, none of which it seems your willing to accept at this point?

There is a lot of arguments for why faith is necessary that make a lot of sense while you’re talking about it but not so much when you actually think on it. Would making His existence a known fact, rather than a possibility, really change the way things are.

*Yes it would! Why?

There are books on this topic; but I’ll try in a few words to at least wet your appetite for truth. Consider as a scientist: There are BILLIONS of planets, stars and galaxies; but only ONE HAS BEEN PROVEN [not speculative unproven opinions] to be able to support life. That being Planet Earth. On Planet earth with HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVING THINGS; Only One; humanity can be shown to have the Spiritual gifts of a mind, intellect, FREEWILL and a soul. WHY? Again there are extensive writtings on the subject. But logic precludes even the slightest possibility of coincidence; or luck being the cause. Because of the complexity and power of these attributes; even skeptics ought to agree, that THERE HAS TO BE A PRECISE REASON FOR THIS HAPPENSTANCE. The reason friend is that only humanity can love and thank there CREATOR for all the Blessings bestowed on us; past; present and future. Only humanity can Love God in return and THANK GOD!*

I understand the test of faith, the journey, or whatever you want to call it, but it honestly seems like a joke. In reality it seems like a sick test on His part.

It’s no-more of a joke than any scientific endeavor. Both seek truth and support of the truth. As for getting your own truth… In what way are you more worthy of this [possible but unlikely event taking place] than the hundreds of thousands; beginning with all of the Apostles except John whom they tried to boil alive; but God persevered him; who gave there very life’s belief of this God; the Eucharist and what the CC teaches. God asked them [DEMANDED] from them Faith; so why should He NOT expect it from you. Do some research of Catholic Martyrs and Eucharistic Miracles, and you’ll see that they FOUND Faith; which by the way is a GIFT FROM GOD ALONE.

See next post for balance:

 

[PJM]

PART II

QUOTE] Biggest thing for me: Why is Catholicism more “right” than other forms of christianity and religions.

Finally an easy question: The Key’s to heaven ALL rest with Peter and the CC; the Only Church; Only Faith and Only New Covenant. The NT has over 100 reference to Only One Church… and that is all the world had for the first thousands years A.D. …. This is historically provable.

This may be pushing the line for this website, … Everything we know about the man comes from the teachings of the aforementioned 4 guys who were “inspired by the Holy Spirit”.

Not so! All twelve [Paul included] Apostles gave there lives literally for Christ, His Church and the New Faith based on the New Covenant in Christ Blood. Again search Early Fathers on “faith.” The evidence is indisputable even by scientific standards. Plus see the writtings of say Jude,James and Peter

I know that there are some other records of the existence of A Jesus, and other religions recognize him as at least a prophet, but what we are taught and believe comes from the gospels. Today, the Church uses science to prove/disprove miracles. There wasn’t a lot of science back then to prove/disprove anything

*So friend: First cause; physical laws of Nature; why a created universe; why humanity ALONE can love [provable] not speculation for the sake of supporting unbelief. Supported by secular historians; and testimonies of early fathers and early saints mean nothing? I have pulmonary hypertension: The doctors can prove that I Do have it; but can’t explain how or why. [Believe me every test known to man has been tried]…. So why does humanity in 2011 ALONE have the ability to Love; and to rationally choose good or evil? *

Why the secrecy?? I read something about the writings of the pope are locked up for 70ish years before anyone can look at them. .

“Mystery” is a far more accurate word for what you describe. Type Encyclicals or “Apolostolic Letters” and you’ll get hit’s a whole lot oder that you and I will ever Be; including all of them by Pope Joun Paul II and our present Pope; Benedict:* do the search on EWTN’s*** Document Library and you’ll even be able to read them.

1. evolution. I don’t know what the official belief is now, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that it happened.

The Official position of the CC is that one can hold the truths of evolution so long as God as Creator is given credit and acknowledged for: First Cause; the Universe; and being in complete control of what science unfolds and evolutionary truth. So Freewill evolved from? Hearning and sight from? Ability to learn languages from?, Ability to do Math; from? Ability to LOVE from?

*My dear friend you seem to suffer from a common malignant unbelief based on a lack of right and factual position. There are ONLY TWO broad topics of Church Teachings that are proof-written by God Himself: **One ***is all issues of religious-Faith belief and practice Two: All matters of Morals and Morality. ONLY on these two issues can the CC not be in error [absolute impossibility]. On any and every other topic and issue; She the CC is capabale of human eorror as are science and doctors. Mother church has no assurance of inerrancy outside of the TWO topics as explained above. The fact that She has been wrong on scientific issues; in no way permit’s the argument that She therefore could be wrong also on Faith or Moral Issues. Such is an impossibility; because God Himself assures such is the TRUTH. This too is historically provable.

May God grant you Faith and Understanding; your in my prayers,
PM me if you have additional questions.
Pat

 

[PatrickSebast]

First, why did you make a new thread for this rather than posting in his old one?

Second, you do know he is knew to the forums, hasn’t been on since April 5th, and even if he does return isn’t very likely to find this, right? Maybe send him a private message or something instead.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Related threads have been merged.

 

[thirddec]

I have 2 little points as this is a complicated post

1. to original question ; you have raised lots of qusstions so even if they are all answered you are going to be swamped with information. I would suggest breaking it up and dealing with one issue thoroughly and then moving to the next. Start with what I believe to be the most crucial question. Why should I go to Mass? start a new thread on this then you can make better progress.
2. regarding Trolls ; I can spot them a mile off and my opinion is let them troll as they continue to invite so many learned scholars to contribute to the discussions that we all become deeper in our faith. And in time they may actually start to believe the truth as all attempts to prove us false fails so miserably. In some ways they keep this forum sparkling and alive because it keeps people active and guarding our brothers and sisters from bellieving in errors they would try to promote. It also makes me proud to be in this forum when we show such patience with them. Try to troll on an Islamic forum and see how long you last before you are kicked off.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

the main reason i ask these questions is because i’m having a hard time believing religion is necessary and is little more than a way to control and comfort the large amount of people on this earth. How is being a good caring person not good enough. I talk to God, i pray for strength, i thank Him when He gives me that strength. If i have a personal relationship with God, why do i need an organization to tell me how i should have a relationship with Him?

You have tons of really great questions and are obviously a very thoughtful person and an intelligent guy.

I think for many (perhaps most) people, religion functions much as you suspect–it’s basically a way for people to feel that they are personally better in some way than the guy across the street and a confirmation that their understanding is right and everyone else’s is wrong. It’s a big ego trip, basically.

Also, you pretty obviously have some sort of relationship with God or a belief or orientation toward a transcendent being, otherwise you wouldn’t be praying or probably even bothering to ask these questions on a site like this. I think you have good instincts.

Because your questions are numerous and complex, a good place to start might be just with a basic exploration of what Christianity is and the teachings of Jesus (through his words and deeds). Begin at the beginning. If you start with the Gospels–as sort of a record of Jesus’ teachings, without any other initial assumptions about “inspiration” or “the Holy Spirit” piled on for the time being–I would ask yourself whether you find anything in those recorded teachings and deeds of Jesus helpful in “being a good caring person,” which sounds like your basic aspiration in life. If so, I think there is definitely something there for you that invites further exploration.

If you ever want to dialogue, I’d be happy to do so.

 

[PJM]

=PatrickSebast;7736864]First, why did you make a new thread for this rather than posting in his old one?

Second, you do know he is knew to the forums, hasn’t been on since April 5th, and even if he does return isn’t very likely to find this, right? Maybe send him a private message or something instead.

TRIED to several times His Mail Box is FULL

 

[themonk86]

1. Why is Mass necessary? Now before I start getting bible passages, especially, “keep holy the Sabbath…” I’m questioning religion in general, not simply why I need to go to mass. If God created me with a sense of humor, the ability to do work, someone who’s generally not a very boring guy; why would he want or even make it necessary to sit for an hour in a church reciting monotonous prayers and terrible church music. In other words, why is sitting in mass better than taking an hour out of my Sunday to do something good for someone else (grant it i generally don’t, but for arguments sake).

God gave us the Mass simply because he knew we would need it, and that goes for religion in general. Im not saying that all religions are the same but simply saying that we were created by God so therefor we need Him. So religious expression naturally came about because we as humans need God.

We all know deep down inside that we need God and sometimes fill them with other things such as material things, friends, social status, etc… But in the end this never really fullfills the deeps desire we have for God even if we don’t recognize it. So sitting in Mass for an hour is were we really come to receive Jesus (the Eucharist) whole, heart, and divinity. We need this intimate connection, every human heart longs for it.

Like St. Agustine said "God, you have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless till they find their rest in you’’

Hope this helps, God Bless you with you search for answers!

 

[Ignatius]

a person like me (someone who refuses to believe in something without proof).

I don’t think you are being accurate. Axioms are assumed as true without proof. All of mathematics is based on certain axioms. You couldn’t have made it to college without use of some elemental geometric axioms.

If you get wrapped around the axle about these things you will not be able to progress beyond them. It is axiomatic that to progress in learning, you must accept many things without proof.

 

[cooterhein]

1. Faith?? I’m a man of science. I’m in med school right now and, although I can be an idiot at times, I generally consider myself an intelligent person. I’ve seen, experienced and studied things that leave little doubt in my mind that there is SOMETHING out there, whether it be a God or just a "cosmic goodness”. BUT, if we’re talking about the God I learned about in grammar school, why is faith necessary? Why doesn’t God reveal himself like he supposedly did 2000 years ago and give proof to this religion…it honestly seems like a joke. In reality it seems like a sick test on His part. Kind of like a “now you see me now you don’t, but you have to believe in me anyway”. And as cliche as it is for me to say, has blindly believing in anything so fully really ever been a great idea? doubting thomas was given proof after the crucifixion. Why am I wrong to want my own proof?

This has to do with something I like to call “Divine Hiddenness.” It’s the idea that God largely keeps Himself hidden from us even though He could easily make His presence obvious, as He has done for some people in the past. What follows is part of an abstract from a response to this question; more specifically, a response to a more developed and nuanced argument from a particular atheist. The individuals responsible for the response are philosophers as well as Christians. I’ve met a couple of them; one is the chair of the philosophy department at Loyola University in Illinois. They do a really excellent job; I strongly recommend that you explore what they’ve written and consider buying it.

Abstract: In this paper we argue that attention to the intricacies relating to belief illustrate crucial difficulties with Schellenberg’s hiddenness argument. This issue has been only tangentially discussed in the literature to date. Yet we judge this aspect of Schellenberg’s argument deeply significant. We claim that focus on the nature of belief manifests a central flaw in the hiddenness argument. Additionally, attention to doxastic subtleties provides important lessons about the nature of faith.

In brief our argument runs as follows: we will show that Schellenberg’s argument from divine hiddenness is subject to crucial ambiguities with regard to the notion of belief. Attention to subtleties pertaining to belief allows one to disambiguate key premises of the hiddenness argument. Once this is done the hiddenness argument collapses; the disambiguated premises are either false, or true but not conducive to Schellenberg’s purposes. Our general strategy involves two stages. In the first stage we disambiguate the key premises and in the second stage we evaluate the premises. Part of the evaluation phase involves following the suggestion of Peter van Inwagen in offering a defense of Christianity in the sense that we are going to be exploiting certain subtleties in the concept of belief to tell an internally consistent story which entails both that omnipotent, omniscient, morally perfect and perfectly loving being exists and that this being is hidden.

You can read the entirety of this abstract if you follow this link. google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDgQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southalabama.edu%2Fphilosophy%2Fposton%2FBelief%2520and%2520Divine%2520Hiddenness.doc&rct=j&q=divine%20hiddenness&ei=0pevTcblAoi4tgfOpKSkBQ&usg=AFQjCNFlHTfDo1AByJ8KTiO58GV6BcpQIQ&cad=rja

It will prompt an “OK” that allows you to open it in Microsoft Word.

If this continues to be of interest to you, here’s the Amazon link. amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0521006104/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

Even if it is one-sided, it’s your best source for the really important theistic authors and their perspectives on the issue.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

1. Why is Mass necessary?

Because Adam and Eve sinned knowing the consequences. That is the literal reason for the Sacrifice.

1. Faith?? I’m a man of science. I’m in med school right now…Why am I wrong to want my own proof?

What more proof do you need? You accept all manner of historical facts based on the testimony of others. You don’t reject the Constitution becuase Thomas Jefferson isn’t here to explain it to you.

1. Biggest thing for me: Why is Catholicism more “right” than other forms of christianity and religions.

Christ founded the Catholic Church. You can find it in Scripture. We are the only true religion because we can demonstrate it mathematically. Christ fulfilled the Messianic Prophecies. The odds of a random person fulfillinng those prophecies are astronomical. You can find more info by Googling Messianic Prophecy, odds, Science Speaks, etc

Jehovah witnesses. maybe. if i remember correctly. Which ever religion it is, there is a some book that was written by a man who claimed was inspired by the Holy Spirit. However, this faith is wrong because…isn’t that what 4 guys from the catholic church said as well (New Testament). So what’s that about?

The Apostles were eye witnesses to Christ. These other claimants were not.

1. …there any other proof of miracles like these happening that doesn’t come only from the bible?”

The Bible is a collection of books documenting the Judeo/Christian Tradition. The books are canonized in some sense because they document these incidents. If a book properly documented those events it was canonized.

1. Why the secrecy?? I read something about the writings of the pope are locked up for 70ish years before anyone can look at them. The vatican archives: if there is something you’re looking for you have to request that exact volume if you can even get that, there is no browsing or entrance.

I don’t do conspiracy theories. lol

1. evolution. …

You are free to believe as your conscience allows in general. The Bible is not a science book. Ultimately, evolution has no bearing on G-d.

I bring this up to highlight how much the Catholic church changes it’s beliefs. at one point science was sorcery and the work of the devil. now, the Catholic church uses it in many settings. evolution was scientists trying to prove that God doesn’t exist (which it doesn’t), but if it hasn’t already, it will admit that this is what occurred soon in the future. If the Catholic church was the sole authority on our beliefs of Jesus and God 2000 years ago, what does that say about us now with all the changes made.

This isn’t true. Science was never the devil. Evolution is just another scientific theory. Not greatly important to life outside academia.