Please help

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rk27 said:
"Read the Gospels…pick any one to begin with and notice what Christ says about faith and how it relates to a lot of the miracles He did. That some serious signs if you ask me.”

church militant, thank you for taking the time and effort to try to help. So, please don’t think i’m being hostile when i say this. i get these arguments a lot about reading the gospels and old testament, but one of my main questions is why/how am i supposed to believe in the bible more than any other religious book. it was written by humans. our faith says that the Holy Spirit worked through these humans, but how is that any different than any other religious book?
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No problem my friend.

Well, there is more historical evidence for the life of Christ than a great many other more modern persons to begin with.

Further…Either Jesus was who He claimed to be or He was diabolically nuts. Besides, who else, having lived and died and rose again from the dead, has had the effect on human civilization that Our Lord has? Is it actually logical that a madman or fake would have done so? That’s sort of requires to much mental gymnastics for me http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/flip_emoticon_jfo.gif
 
StrawberryJam said:
What? Give me the statistics for your claim that it is harder to believe there isn’t a God of some form (when you learn more about science?)

WHAT?
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I’ll use biology as my example since i’m more informed in the subject than others. even if you only have a general knowledge of how the body works, you’d know how much order is required. personally, i find it impossible to not believe in evolution. but after learning even just about a single nerve in the human body. how an action potential occurs and travels from the brain down the nerve to have an effect on a target organ like a muscle. how there are specific ion channels that are gated in specific ways to allow the action potential to only travel one way down the nerve. evolution is crude and requires specific environments that select for specific morphological features. (if i’m being an idiot and sound too scientific: by select i mean the DNA of one cell/organism is passed on to its progeny or children more than other forms because it codes for proteins, which becomes the channels and structures of the cells, that have more of an advantage for survival than others) evolution isn’t magical, its just a crude form of survivability and the ability of a life form to pass on genes that are beneficial to its species. a more current example would be how almost 100% of africans living in an area infested with a type of malaria (P. vivax) are immured to the infection because evolution selected for DNA that makes a protein which goes on their red blood cells and doesn’t allow the parasites to enter the cells.

Science is very logical and offers proof for everything it teaches, but the more detail you learn about different things the harder it is to accept that “Oh it just happened that way”. Seeing how complex the human body is, and knowing how infinitely complex and perfect the environment had to be to select for every different cell in the human body proves, at least in my mind that God (or at least something) exists outside of pure randomness.
 
Church_Militant said:
No problem my friend.

Well, there is more historical evidence for the life of Christ than a great many other more modern persons to begin with.

Further…Either Jesus was who He claimed to be or He was diabolically nuts. Besides, who else, having lived and died and rose again from the dead, has had the effect on human civilization that Our Lord has? Is it actually logical that a madman or fake would have done so? That’s sort of requires to much mental gymnastics for me http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/flip_emoticon_jfo.gif
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lol friend my mind is already in mental gymnastics. i agree, he has been the most influential man in history, but again, the rising and ascension part is straight from the bible which was written 2000 years ago. and the influence comes from people having faith in what was written in that bible. At this time, my main problem is just accepting that the bible is completely accurate/true. it’s the ultimate he said, she said. the Church says the Holy Spirit worked through these men. who told the Church that? God? who said God told the Church that? The Church?
 
Here’s some more links to articles that might help a bit. And please…check out all the links that I’ve offered so far. You may find some answers there. I’m gonna go read and crash for the night, but I’ll be back on here tomorrow morning and check to see what’s happening on this thread. You’re kinda stuck with me. 😃

Hang around and rest assured that some of us will do our best to help find the answers that you need…oh yeah…and I’ll be remembering you in my prayers that you get the answers that you need and come to faith.
(Saint Augustine’s night prayer)
“Watch O Lord with those who wake, or watch, or weep tonight, and give Your Angels and Saints charge over those who sleep. Tend Your sick ones, dear Lord, rest Your weary ones, bless Your dying ones, soothe Your suffering ones, pity Your afflicted ones, shield Your joyous ones, and all for Your Love’s sake.”
 
Church Militant always a 👍 :clapping:

An additional good read rk27 is Hugh Ross’s conclusion for Christianity from a theistic background. He stiffed all religions with probability theory and found the Bible free from error. Highly recommended the read.

I’m with militant on this one; I’ll offer a rosary tonight for you.
 
StrawberryJam said:
Hey Jared,

Are you suggesting that the way to find a church is to find one that is in alignment with your beliefs as they stand now?
If you are suggesting that, could you give us a reason why that would be a valid way to choose?
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Quite right. The less you must conform yourself to a belief system, the less likely it is to be completely true.
 
I think it would have been much better to make one thread for each question, but I will answer you based on what I’ve learned in my studies about Catholicism.
  1. Mass. It celebrates what Jesus did for the world, and it is also good to set time aside for God. Yes, you have a busy life, as does everyone else, but you can’t set aside one hour per week for God? I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
  2. Faith is partially a gift and partially and act of the will. God gives us the grace to believe and then we choose to obey him, even if we don’t always agree with what he wants us to do or what the Church expects us to believe. It’s surrendering to God.
  3. Catholicism represents the fullness of the Christian truth and has nearly 2,000 years of Church history to back up its teachings. Jehovah’s Witnesses was started by a sect that believes the world is ending very soon and they falsely predicted the end of the world numerous times. A false prophet is not a prophet of God. With other religions, such as Mormonism or Islam, they are based on private revelations of one person. We don’t know if they’re making up what they saw, and they were supposedly told several things that are not Biblical. Jesus chose 12 apostles and rose from the dead with many witnesses, and a crowd of 500 saw him ascend to heaven. The Catholic Church tells us to believe public revelations, but does not require anyone to believe private revelations. The Church does sometimes “approve” revelations, but all that means is that they didn’t say anything that contradicts what the Church already knows and has been teaching, NOT that anyone is required to believe or not believe in it.
  4. I suggest you do some studying and research. Yes, there are four gospels, but there were 12 apostles and many, many witnesses. I would recommend Lee Strobel’s books, and there are other good ones out there as well.
  5. What is secret? You can go in there and make requests, it’s just there are so many documents/books and so many people interested in reading them that they have to keep things sort of hidden or it would be a huge mess and some of the items might even get damaged or stolen. The Pope’s writings? It doesn’t really matter… if it’s not a special proclamation about faith and morals, it’s the work of a private theologan, it’s nothing anyone is required to believe or anything. Although I am glad the current Pope publishes his works for everyone to read.
  6. The Church does not require anyone to believe or disbelieve in evolution, so that’s not really an issue… unless you’re a Bible-belt creationist Protestant who believes the world is 6,000 years old and was created in a week, you’re not going to have a problem with Catholicism. In fact, a lot of people like that the Cathing Church allows people the freedom to believe in science, do their own research, etc.
  7. Jesus did not give the Church (or anyone else) the authority to ordain women. Women cannot be priests, plain and simple. Even if a woman calls herself a “Catholic priest” she is not a priest. There are many ways a woman can dedicate her time and skills to the Church, but being a priest is not one of them. Men cannot give birth (natural), women cannot be priests (supernatural).
  8. The Pope is ONLY infallible when he makes a special kind of announcements in regard to faith an morals. He is not perfect and is still a human. The Holy Spirit does not protect the Church from sin, but it does protect it from corrupted doctrine.
  9. Who says those are all equal? Some of them are habitual sins, which means they are not full consent, which means they are considered venial. Other times they are mortal sins. A mortal sin is simply a sin that breaks a person’s friendship with God. In human terms, there are some things someone can do that will make you not be their friend anymore, Some sins are more severe than others, true, but then hell is not equal for everyone either. The hell fire will be proportional to the sins committed, when a person dies with unrepented mortal sins.
  10. Angels do have free will. God is love and love has to be given freely, so he gives everyone (including angels) the choice to accept or reject him.
  11. You don’t have to like women to go to heaven. The Church does not teach that the urges are sinful, only homosexual ACTS are sinful. He will not go to hell for not liking women, but he might go to hell for not learning to control his urges toward men.
The organization is there to help people grow closer to God. Everyone is called to sainthood, and the church helps people grow in holiness, learn about God, etc. The organization is also there for group worship and group prayer, which are pleasing to God. Control people? It’s there to help people go away from sin and toward God (faith and morals)… Catholics live a wide range of lives, not everyone is the same. Married, single, any occupation you can name, and many different countries, cultures, and traditions.
 
How to explain medical miracles? Statistical anomalies, perhaps. But how many sequential anomalies before the probability becomes incomprehensible? Something, or someone is out there, here, now. Clearly, you are at a crisis of faith. All in life seems to be provided, even without faith. Success is behind you, around you and lies ahead of you. But, it falls short; its responses are not satisfying answers. Something is lacking, and the medical realm cannot provide the crucial and foundational answers that are needed on a daily basis to explain the unexplainable that surrounds us. Our spirits love to love something, but what? We find it difficult enough to believe in the seen, let alone the unseen. And, why does belief require such an adherence to the counter-intuitive? We live in the finite. We seek the measurable and the empirical, not the ephemeral, the fleeting, the gossamer. And yet, there is real substance, perceptible spiritual substance in that which can be proven only to the self. Forgive my philosophizing, but I am a medical miracle, and I attribute it solely to faith - specifically that of others, but also, to a lesser degree, my own.
 
rk27 said:
I’ll use biology as my example since i’m more informed in the subject than others. even if you only have a general knowledge of how the body works, you’d know how much order is required.
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I’m a mathematician (my wife is a biologist (and a chemist), but she is asleep right now).

But, as a mathematician, I DO know how much order is required. A DNA molecule is a quadnary data structure (ie, comprised of four states - or enzymes) which is more than three BILLION records long. Computers use binary data structures (two states), and a trinary structure has been the holy grail of computer science since the days of Alan Turing (it increases the storage density and command density by 50%).

We do not have the current technology to even approach a mapping of the entire DNA molecule. The Human Genome Project succeeded (after several years) in mapping less than 25,000 specifically-human genes, using the combined resources of several nation-states and hundreds of thousands of volunteers who contributed computing resources (I was one of them).

There is a LOT of order in a DNA molecule. A LOT more than can be supported by the second law of thermodynamics (which says order should break down, not increase, unless there is an external application of energy, which, in this case, could only be God).
 
I have to go to bed so addressing individual questions can wait, but I would like to take it down to the basic nature of your questions for now:
  1. Why have a faith at all, what purpose does it serve in our lives?
Even if I died and found that God didn’t exist I would not regret my faith. Catholicism adds a cultural richness, and world-wide family structure to my life. Faith and prayer add stability, contentment, joy, and hope. Yes I am willing to acknowledge that it is possible that I am wrong, after all many other faiths could make similar claims and some without faith at all may be more at peace than I am. However faith, isn’t about being 100% assured of something, it is about hoping for something greater. Almost all people use some combination of drugs, sex, romance, philosophy, patriotism, family, friends and/or alcohol to help enhance their life and I just happen to be a person who has faith as part of his personal mix. It isn’t the easiest thing to understand, and even among those who proclaim some sort of faith, many don’t really grasp it since they haven’t truly explored it. Understanding why people have faith is something that more often then not is going to require personal experience with a real faith or witnessing what a strong individual gains through their faith.

Or more simply put:

If a higher power does exist then answer of faith is obvious, we are drawn to it.

If a higher power doesn’t exist then the answer is still not that different than explaining why someone invests themselves in a sport, hobby, or lifestyle.
  1. Why Catholicism specifically. A very long question, but as far a Christianity is concerned Catholicism has history on its side (oldest, and most consistent teachings) and some of the best educated and well credited theologians in the world. By strict academic standards it is a much more reputable institution at least. As for the question of why Christianity it just tends to have the most fervent and freeing philosophy, while still maintaining a solid structure. It is a faith that requires one to change but for the sake of love rather than submission. I realize that was very general but addressing individual faiths would be tedious and this is already taking more time than I had hoped.
3.Scientific conflicts.

Catholicism does not have conflicts with modern scientific theories such as evolution, and it never issued any official teachings against evolution, and even around 400 AD St. Augustine wrote about the idea of creation being a metaphorical account and that the Church should be open to the possibility of new discoveries conflicting with the creation narrative. Likewise despite what some members of internet communities would have you believe the Church has almost always supported science and its discoveries, and even reading Wikipedia articles will reveal this. The only real instance of the Church messing with the work of scientists was the Galileo controversy and if you read up on that you will find that the Church still commissioned a book from him arguing his theories and that most of the problems came from Galileo being an unfortunate casualty of political conflicts rather than being ousted for his science.

The only real examples of the church “slowing” scientific progress are cases in which immoral actions are involved such as medical testing on people in mental institutions, or test that require the material of aborted children, and I would say that is easy to understand. The church’s policy is to form rules on the morality of discoveries, while believing that finding new information about the universe should always be encouraged since understanding of creation will only draw us closer to understanding God.
  1. Issues regarding certain morals.
My best friend is gay, I do not think he is less of a person or that he is incapable of having a loving relationship. The Church also does not believe that homosexuals are incapable of loving or are less worthy/broken human beings. The belief is simply that Catholics are obliged to following a thing called “natural law” which is a reflection of a higher divine nature that exists in the souls of the faithful. Prohibitions of things like homosexual sex, masturbation, pre-marital sex, and artificial birth control should be viewed as something similar to the Jews prohibition against eating pork. Following natural law is a practice for the faithful to be encouraged by the faithful. The idea is not to have people embrace the law and then Christ, but to come to Christ and through him have a desire to embrace God’s natural law.

Yes there are Catholics out there who will openly state things like “all the gays need to stop being gay”, but that is a symptom of being badly catechized and growing up in a society that doesn’t have the most loving of attitudes towards homosexuals.

I won’t deny that our faith is restrictive in some aspects, especially in regards to sexuality and gender roles, but the goal of these restrictions is not to cause harm. We are living a faith the believes eternal life begins today, and strive towards the goals of being living saints, in essence all are called to make sacrifices in regards to some of their worldly desires and some sacrifices are just a little bit harder for some.
 
rk27 said:
I’ll use biology as my example since i’m more informed in the subject than others. even if you only have a general knowledge of how the body works, you’d know how much order is required. personally, i find it impossible to not believe in evolution. but after learning even just about a single nerve in the human body. how an action potential occurs and travels from the brain down the nerve to have an effect on a target organ like a muscle. how there are specific ion channels that are gated in specific ways to allow the action potential to only travel one way down the nerve. evolution is crude and requires specific environments that select for specific morphological features. (if i’m being an idiot and sound too scientific: by select i mean the DNA of one cell/organism is passed on to its progeny or children more than other forms because it codes for proteins, which becomes the channels and structures of the cells, that have more of an advantage for survival than others) evolution isn’t magical, its just a crude form of survivability and the ability of a life form to pass on genes that are beneficial to its species. a more current example would be how almost 100% of africans living in an area infested with a type of malaria (P. vivax) are immured to the infection because evolution selected for DNA that makes a protein which goes on their red blood cells and doesn’t allow the parasites to enter the cells.

Science is very logical and offers proof for everything it teaches, but the more detail you learn about different things the harder it is to accept that “Oh it just happened that way”. Seeing how complex the human body is, and knowing how infinitely complex and perfect the environment had to be to select for every different cell in the human body proves, at least in my mind that God (or at least something) exists outside of pure randomness.
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The Complexity argument?

You are in biology and using the complexity argument?

I’m calling you out on that.

Sending a pm
 
DavidFilmer said:
I’m a mathematician (my wife is a biologist (and a chemist), but she is asleep right now).

But, as a mathematician, I DO know how much order is required. A DNA molecule is a quadnary data structure (ie, comprised of four states - or enzymes) which is more than three BILLION records long. Computers use binary data structures (two states), and a trinary structure has been the holy grail of computer science since the days of Alan Turing (it increases the storage density and command density by 50%).

We do not have the current technology to even approach a mapping of the entire DNA molecule. The Human Genome Project succeeded (after several years) in mapping less than 25,000 specifically-human genes, using the combined resources of several nation-states and hundreds of thousands of volunteers who contributed computing resources (I was one of them).

There is a LOT of order in a DNA molecule. A LOT more than can be supported by the second law of thermodynamics (which says order should break down, not increase, unless there is an external application of energy, which, in this case, could only be God).
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The complexity argument?

You have to be kidding me.
 
rk27 said:
Ok. I wouldn’t necessarily call myself a catholic anymore, but I’m trying to figure out why it’s so hard for me to believe in something I was taught from a very early age and even studied fervently for a while. I’m going to list a few of the problems I have with Catholicism and even religion in general. These are things that i truly have a problem with and am honestly trying to find an answer. It may seem that i am trying to start an argument or am just putting the Church down, but i TRULY am interested in the answers to these questions. If anyone has insight on any of these please share.
  1. Why is Mass necessary? Now before I start getting bible passages, especially, “keep holy the Sabbath…” I’m questioning religion in general, not simply why I need to go to mass. If God created me with a sense of humor, the ability to do work, someone who’s generally not a very boring guy; why would he want or even make it necessary to sit for an hour in a church reciting monotonous prayers and terrible church music. In other words, why is sitting in mass better than taking an hour out of my Sunday to do something good for someone else (grant it i generally don’t, but for arguments sake).
  2. Faith?? I’m a man of science. I’m in med school right now and, although I can be an idiot at times, I generally consider myself an intelligent person. I’ve seen, experienced and studied things that leave little doubt in my mind that there is SOMETHING out there, whether it be a God or just a "cosmic goodness”. BUT, if we’re talking about the God I learned about in grammar school, why is faith necessary? Why doesn’t God reveal himself like he supposedly did 2000 years ago and give proof to this religion. Now the problem is I’ve learned a lot about catholicism, and the more I learned the harder it was for me to believe in it’s teachings. There is a lot of arguments for why faith is necessary that make a lot of sense while you’re talking about it but not so much when you actually think on it. Would making His existence a known fact, rather than a possibility, really change the way things are. I understand the test of faith, the journey, or whatever you want to call it, but it honestly seems like a joke. In reality it seems like a sick test on His part. Kind of like a “now you see me now you don’t, but you have to believe in me anyway”. And as cliche as it is for me to say, has blindly believing in anything so fully really ever been a great idea? doubting thomas was given proof after the crucifixion. Why am I wrong to want my own proof?
  3. Biggest thing for me: Why is Catholicism more “right” than other forms of christianity and religions. Jehovah witnesses. maybe. if i remember correctly. Which ever religion it is, there is a some book that was written by a man who claimed was inspired by the Holy Spirit. However, this faith is wrong because…isn’t that what 4 guys from the catholic church said as well (New Testament). So what’s that about?
  4. This may be pushing the line for this website, but i’m honestly interested and wondering. Like i said i was Catholic, i still go to mass occasionally with my girlfriend, and i’m trying to find a reason to believe again. so, Jesus. The foundation of christianity, the son of God. Everything we know about the man comes from the teachings of the aforementioned 4 guys who were “inspired by the Holy Spirit”. I know that there are some other records of the existence of A Jesus, and other religions recognize him as at least a prophet, but what we are taught and believe comes from the gospels. Today, the Church uses science to prove/disprove miracles. There wasn’t a lot of science back then to prove/disprove anything. We accept stories like turning water into wine, and walking on water, but how easy would it be to make something like that up in a book (which was written years after the fact). A recent gospel at mass was about Jesus rubbing clay in a blind man’s eyes and causing him to see again. All i could find myself thinking was, “ok, is there any other proof of miracles like these happening that doesn’t come only from the bible?”
  5. Why the secrecy?? I read something about the writings of the pope are locked up for 70ish years before anyone can look at them. The vatican archives: if there is something you’re looking for you have to request that exact volume if you can even get that, there is no browsing or entrance.
  6. evolution. I don’t know what the official belief is now, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that it happened. I do believe in the clockmaker argument, that God designed us to evolve to this certain point (we’ll probably stay at this point for a while because due to technology there’s not a lot of natural selection occurring). evolution can and has already been proven on a small scale in a petri dish and hospital with bacteria. Bacteria evolve to become multi-drug resistant on the basis of natural selection. DNA is mutated, translocated, and transfused until a genome is reached that allows the bacteria to overcome the antibiotics given. This can happen in a manner of weeks, so you can imagine what can happen in a manner of millions of years. I bring this up to highlight how much the Catholic church changes it’s beliefs. at one point science was sorcery and the work of the devil. now, the Catholic church uses it in many settings. evolution was scientists trying to prove that God doesn’t exist (which it doesn’t), but if it hasn’t already, it will admit that this is what occurred soon in the future. If the Catholic church was the sole authority on our beliefs of Jesus and God 2000 years ago, what does that say about us now with all the changes made.
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I’d like to be of help… I tried sending you a PM but your Bucket is full… PM me and I’ll share how I can assist you…

God Bless,

Pat
 
rk27 said:
"Read the Gospels…pick any one to begin with and notice what Christ says about faith and how it relates to a lot of the miracles He did. That some serious signs if you ask me.”

church militant, thank you for taking the time and effort to try to help. So, please don’t think i’m being hostile when i say this. i get these arguments a lot about reading the gospels and old testament, but one of my main questions is why/how am i supposed to believe in the bible more than any other religious book. it was written by humans. our faith says that the Holy Spirit worked through these humans, but how is that any different than any other religious book?
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amazon.com/Truth-Tolerance-Christian-Belief-Religions/dp/158617035X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1302049742&sr=1-1

A suggestion. 🙂
 
StrawberryJam said:
The Complexity argument?

You are in biology and using the complexity argument?

I’m calling you out on that.

Sending a pm
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Strawberry, what are you trying to say? I’m just confused, if you arguing that there is or isn’t a God or something else that gives organization to the complexity of life.
 
rk27 said:
Strawberry, what are you trying to say? I’m just confused, if you arguing that there is or isn’t a God or something else that gives organization to the complexity of life.
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She is trying to say that complexity is not a valid argument for God, I tend to agree.
 
PatrickSebast said:
She is trying to say that complexity is not a valid argument for God, I tend to agree. Evolved life forms created by random chance in a universe of random chance are not likely to be simple. Simplicity would imply a perfect and clean cut evolutionary path, complexity implies a messy evolution in which many unneeded traits can pass through the filter.
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You be Jammin it tonight Patrick!👍

Do you see why I have my leanings? Where else would I go?

Good night my friend!
 
Rk27:
I’d like to help you but I’m too tired to give it my best tonight. But I will leave you with a couple of thoughts.

The primary reasons to go to mass are to be in the presence of God and to recieve his graces in the eucharist. You see, when you partake of the eucharist, God becomes part of you and you will become more holy and love more deeply and consistently. . Now, I understand that you might not understand this point well yet because it really takes a change in perspective to think in those terms. Eventually, God willing, God pulls you in and you will feel compelled to be with him more and more.

You should not be relying on faith apart from reason to decide what to do in terms of religion. God gave you reason for a purpose - to use to find him. As for catholicism verses other religions, it comes down to credibility of the witnesses, like everything else you learn. The Catholic Church is NOT secretive. Its doctrines are well documented and explained and can be shown to be consistent for 2000 years going back to the Apostles. and for a 1000 years before that , the appearance of Jesus was preordained through the Jewish prophets.

I leave you with one final thought for the night: what gives life meaning? The Catholic Church teaches that life is a test in which people decide whether they want to be with God for eternity or not. This is a matter of love more than even faith. You need to want what is best for others because its the right thing to do. This is an attitude that must be taken on and when you have this attitude, you will have peace. Love gives life meaning and if you love in life, you will love in the next life. But going back to mass and why its important: we need the graces of God to love properly and fully. He freely gives this grace, but you need to ask for it through the sacraments.

I know I wasn’t cohesive or comprehensive here, but hopefully it will give you a different way to think as you search for God.
 
rk27 said:
lol friend my mind is already in mental gymnastics. i agree, he has been the most influential man in history, but again, the rising and ascension part is straight from the bible which was written 2000 years ago.
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Dr. Gary Habermas is a well-respected evangelical scholar who focuses on the Resurrection. You may want to see if he has anything that’d be helpful in your search.
 
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