Please prayers for my family members being killed in iran

[Pythons]

Ok Brandon, I was hoping you would come back.

Brandon:

In my previous post I said that I was skeptical about your claim of mass marriages, i.e. a single, large marriage ceremony for multiple people, not skeptical of the disturbing practice of taking on a child bride. I was given the impression that you were talking about mass marriages due to your posting pictures of little girls, all in one huge ceremony walking down a line with men who look to be in their 20s-30s. I then noticed that these girls are carrying Palestinian flags and asked you where you got these pictures from (since, as you should recall, your post was about Yemeni child brides).

The pictures illustrate the contrast between a adult man & a child Brandon…
…They say a picture is worth a 1000 words and I’m assigning more to those pictures than 1000 words.
…The religious practice is “Islamic”.

The video I posted was about a specific girl in Yemen - yes…
…However the Islamic practice of this exists in any Islamic State.

So, if you claim to judge me “off the content of my message” and NOT my percieved allegiance…
…What’s your beef given that my content thus far has been my displeasure with Islamic persecution of Christians.
…As well as “Child Brides”.

Perhaps we can add some additional context by allowing the U.N. to address this issue.

un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=43259
From the above URL:

11 October 2012 – The United Nations today marked the first International Day of the Girl Child by calling for an end to child marriage, and stressing education as one of the best strategies for protecting girls against this harmful practice.

“Education for girls is one of the best strategies for protecting girls against child marriage,” Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said in his message for the Day. “When they are able to stay in school and avoid being married early, girls can build a foundation for a better life for themselves and their families.”

“Let us do our part to let girls be girls, not brides,” he stated, urging governments, community and religious leaders, civil society, the private sector, and families – especially men and boys – to promote the rights of girls.

The International Day of the Girl Child was designated as 11 October by a resolution adopted by the UN General Assembly in December 2011, to recognize girls’ rights and highlight the unique challenges girls face worldwide. The theme of this year’s observance is ‘Ending Child Marriage.’

Approximately 70 million young women today were married before age 18, according to the UN, which notes that child marriage denies a girl her childhood, disrupts her education, limits her opportunities, increases her risk of being a victim of violence and abuse, and jeopardizes her health.

Girls with low levels of schooling are more likely to be married early, and child marriage has been shown to almost always end a girl’s education, the world body adds. Conversely, girls with secondary schooling are up to six times less likely to marry as children, making education one of the most effective ways of combating child marriage.

If current trends continue, the number of girl child marriages will increase dramatically over the next 10 years, according to Marrying too Young: End Child Marriage, a new report released today by the UN Population Fund (UNFPA). It also finds that, despite laws to prevent its practice, child marriage has remained mostly constant in developing countries in the past decade.

Just to be sure we are on the same page here the photo heading the above article shows…
…A 40 year old man preparing to marry an 11 year old girl!
…That’s what the article means by girls getting married prior to age 18.
…The recent report of the 8 year old girl being killed because of forced sex with a man is another example.

I checked Snopes and they said the pictures were not depicting children getting married off…
…Ok, the UN, CNN, NatGeo and a host of international watchdog groups all claim this takes place.
…And the numbers are in the MILLIONS.

So, if you want me to find an actual photograph of a grown man going through a wedding ceremony to a little kid…
…I guess I can accomidate that if you need to see it.

I witnessed the news story of the 8 year old girl who was killed because of sex with her “husband”…
…I googled Child Brides, selected “images” and came up with.

abcnews.go.com/International/slideshow/pregnant-child-brides-15157730

emirates247.com/eb247/news/region/yemeni-cleric-campaigns-against-child-brides-ban-2010-04-25-1.236299

thedailysheeple.com/its-perfectly-legal-for-muslim-men-to-rape-their-8-year-old-brides-until-they-die_092013

dochopperspeaks.com/2009/05/01/saudi-man-urged-to-divorce-child-bride/

I do apologize for the crack about LDS - I’ve been amped up over this issue for a couple months now…
…And shouldn’t have taken that part out on you.
…You have my apology for that.

 

[Brendan_64]

I was instantly skeptical of your claim as I’d never heard of “mass marriages” among the Yemeni child brides before. I grew even more skeptical when I scrutinized those photos more closely and noticed that most of those girls are waving what appears to be either a Jordanian or Palestinian flag. Can I ask you where you obtained these photos from?

These pictures are not from Yemen, but are actually from a Hamas organised event in Gaza (hence the Palestinian flags).

Apparently the little girls are actually not the brides (or brides to be) but are actually flower-girls. The photos got circulated and people put two and two together and made five. The claim that the little girls in these pictures are being married off would appear to be false.

snopes.com/photos/politics/masswedding.asp

If we’re going to make critical claims about something, then at least we ought to use examples that are clearly genuine and not use photos of an event and claim that they are something that they are not.

 

[daler]

These pictures are not from Yemen, but are actually from a Hamas organised event in Gaza (hence the Palestinian flags).

Apparently the little girls are actually not the brides (or brides to be) but are actually flower-girls. The photos got circulated and people put two and two together and made five. The claim that the little girls in these pictures are being married off would appear to be false.

snopes.com/photos/politics/masswedding.asp

If we’re going to make critical claims about something, then at least we ought to use examples that are clearly genuine and not use photos of an event and claim that they are something that they are not.

Thank you for getting to the bottom of this. As the article says, people jump on the bandwagon in order to reinforce their prejudices, becoming part of a lynch mob mentality.

From my reading of Islamic history, I have come to believe that Muhammad’s marriage to Ayisha was not about sex at all, but was in fact a traditional way of ending tribal warfare by cementing a bond between tribes characterized by creating a family bond, thus enabling members of these various tribes to reconcile their identities with each other and see themselves as “family”.

That this takes on the appearance of marriage in its usual sense, i.e. sexual relations, does not necessarily follow, although people will believe what they want in order to generalize and justify their other prejudices against Islam.

What is important is to understand historical cultural norms and not leap to judgement based upon such prejudices, while at the same time exposing such atrocities as the incident in Yemen with the child bride and similar events which should also be brought to light.

That we expect Islam to be called to account on such perverse examples is in keeping with the same expectation of incidents brought to light concerning corrupt behavior among members of any religion in whatever form it takes.

 

[Brendan_64]

That we expect Islam to be called to account on such perverse examples is in keeping with the same expectation of incidents brought to light concerning corrupt behavior among members of any religion in whatever form it takes.

You are quite correct. We should indeed expect all corrupt and abusive behaviour within religions to be brought to light and called to account including within our own religions (and as Catholics we could be accused of turning a blind eye to abuse of children by certain members of the clergy over the years - accusations made resulting in clergy being moved on to other parishes etc.). However we should not demonise entire religions on the basis of the actions of a minority, and we should certainly not use false evidence to condemn or vilify. This is as much true when we attack other religions in this way, as it is when others attack our own religion.

I admit that I know very little about the Baha’i faith, but reading your posts on these forums would suggest that you are a charitable, tolerant and well-meaning individual. You are a good ambassador for your faith.

 

[Pythons]

You are quite correct. We should indeed expect all corrupt and abusive behaviour within religions to be brought to light and called to account including within our own religions (and as Catholics we could be accused of turning a blind eye to abuse of children by certain members of the clergy over the years - accusations made resulting in clergy being moved on to other parishes etc.). However we should not demonise entire religions on the basis of the actions of a minority, and we should certainly not use false evidence to condemn or vilify. This is as much true when we attack other religions in this way, as it is when others attack our own religion.

I admit that I know very little about the Baha’i faith, but reading your posts on these forums would suggest that you are a charitable, tolerant and well-meaning individual. You are a good ambassador for your faith.

Take away the photographs of the mass wedding which Snopes and some other fact check websites say wasn’t Child brides…
…And we still have THE massive issue with the Islamic practice of men raping pre-puberty girls.
…Who they have married in “Islamic religious ceremonies”.

I would seriously urge you to watch the following National Geographic video…
…Take note of the part where the police officer says: “it happens all the time”.

video.nationalgeographic.com/video/specials/nat-geo-live-specials/sinclairgorney-lecture-nglive/

What I’m saying is that this isn’t a “rare thing” in Islamic areas and while it’s true that some non-Islamic areas practice this…
…In those non-Islamic areas it’s based off historical traditions and NOT defended and perpetuated by “Religious Law” ( i.e. Sharia ).

This is why when a law is passed / suggested in a Sharia State banning a grown man from marrying an 7 year old girl…
…It’s immediately repealed BECAUSE the law is considered as being “against Islam” and the founder of Islam.
…In India the girl is kept from sex and lives with a relative until puberty.
…Unlike in Islam.

This isn’t spreading hate or falsehoods against Islam - it’s is simply stating a fact that every civilized society has confirmed.

 

[Brendan_64]

This isn’t spreading hate or falsehoods against Islam - it’s is simply stating a fact that every civilized society has confirmed.

It could also be said that our own Church condoned pedophilia amongst the clergy by it’s covering up for many decades of pedophile priests. Then there are also the claims, of homosexual priests and seminaries being hotbeds for sodomy. There is plenty of evidence for many such incidents not just isolated to one area but global. Does that mean our Church supports such activity?

I would say that we haven’t been fully willing to face up to what our Church has been guilty of. It’s uncomfortable and hard to face, so we’d rather not think about it, or choose to look on it as a few isolated incidents. We need to be very careful when it comes to pointing out depravities in others when we have also been guilty and still haven’t put our house properly in order.

 

[Pythons]

It could also be said that our own Church condoned pedophilia amongst the clergy by it’s covering up for many decades of pedophile priests.

You are right about that and we stand convicted by the record that we have failed…
…As a Church to practice our faith as it’s taught from Mother Church.
…The difference here is THAT - old men bedding down little girls is an Islamic teaching.

When a Catholic Priest is called out for having sex with a minor and punished for it…
…There isn’t a cry from the laity denouncing the punishment because the practice is permitted in Catholicism.
…This is what we see when, due to pressure from outside Islam Muslim States pass laws banning that practice.

The charge hurled at the lawmakers attempting to outlaw the practice is that the “new law” is against Islam…
…You would have to agree that right there is vastly different than the evil conducted within our own Church.
…Evil that has to be practiced in the dark or by sneaking around & not out in the open.
Brendan 64:

Then there are also the claims, of homosexual priests and seminaries being hotbeds for sodomy. There is plenty of evidence for many such incidents not just isolated to one area but global. Does that mean our Church supports such activity?

Those claims are accurate and the elephant in the room on that one is simply…
…A Catholic only need appeal to “the teaching of the church” to know it’s WRONG.
…Whereas a Muslim knows that the founder of their religion married a girl of 6 and consummated that marriage when she was 9!

What I’m trying to say here is that within Catholicism a gay / pedophile Priest can’t appeal to Church teaching to justify the act…
…In Islam the act is justified easily because it’s a fact the founder had sex with little girls.
Brendan 64:

I would say that we haven’t been fully willing to face up to what our Church has been guilty of. It’s uncomfortable and hard to face, so we’d rather not think about it, or choose to look on it as a few isolated incidents. We need to be very careful when it comes to pointing out depravities in others when we have also been guilty and still haven’t put our house properly in order.

Some of us have faced it - I know personally of two men who were as boys molested by a gay Priest…
…My old Parish Priest was in fact defrocked because of some incidents with 18 and over girls.
…What I’m saying is that we are all sinners and have a hard enough time trying to walk down the right road.

Without religion permitting things that are absolutely evil.

All I’m saying is that we humans have a hard enough time doing what’s right…
…And it doesn’t help when religion teaches an intrinsic evil act as a gift from God, a ripe supple peach.

 

[Brendan_64]

That is a good post you have made there Pythons, with some very valid points.

Of course we need to speak out when we see evil, but the evil that we see within our own immediate household is something that we need to put in order first, before tackling the evil we can see in our neighbour’s household.

Our Church teachings may not have permitted these things to occur, but our Church as an institution did permit these things to occur. There is not getting around that fact, our Church did permit it, and permitted it for decades; covering up offences, protecting offenders, and moving offenders from one parish to another (in effect providing them with a fresh supply of unsuspecting, trusting victims).

Personally I do not think that we have done enough to try to tackle the evil that is in our own house. Evil that we knew about for many, many decades. Evil that we allowed to continue for many, many decades. As a Church we colluded in this evil and protected those carrying out this evil. In doing so we allowed the Church to be used as an agent for Satan’s work. Until we deal with this properly, our moral authority to criticise others is fatally compromised.

Any member of the clergy, no matter how senior, who was involved in child abuse, or the covering up of child abuse (i.e. moving priests to other parishes rather than reporting them to the police for investigation etc.) ought to be clearly dealt with internally, and the full details passed on to the relevant civil authorities. But we have so far failed to fully deal with this issue. Let’s hope that that job is next on Pope Francis’s list.

 

[jen_fla]

Edar and Jen.

God bless you both. Jen, I especially found your offering incredibly touching and resonating with my soul.

I am sure my cousin’s soul would have been glorified upon hearing it.

The outpourings of love and reverence is touching indeed, and with Popes call for prayer on saturday for the Syrian people, it is appropriate for us all to pray fervently for the peace and security of all people’s who are persecuted for their beliefs.

God bless
Your loving servant

yes, we must all continue to pray for peace every single day. the rosary is particularly effective. i will continue to pray for you and your family as well. :hug1:

miraculousrosary.blogspot.com/p/famous-rosary-miracles.html

 

[Pythons]

That is a good post you have made there Pythons, with some very valid points.

Of course we need to speak out when we see evil, but the evil that we see within our own immediate household is something that we need to put in order first, before tackling the evil we can see in our neighbour’s household.

Our Church teachings may not have permitted these things to occur, but our Church as an institution did permit these things to occur. There is not getting around that fact, our Church did permit it, and permitted it for decades; covering up offences, protecting offenders, and moving offenders from one parish to another (in effect providing them with a fresh supply of unsuspecting, trusting victims).

Personally I do not think that we have done enough to try to tackle the evil that is in our own house. Evil that we knew about for many, many decades. Evil that we allowed to continue for many, many decades. As a Church we colluded in this evil and protected those carrying out this evil. In doing so we allowed the Church to be used as an agent for Satan’s work. Until we deal with this properly, our moral authority to criticise others is fatally compromised.

Any member of the clergy, no matter how senior, who was involved in child abuse, or the covering up of child abuse (i.e. moving priests to other parishes rather than reporting them to the police for investigation etc.) ought to be clearly dealt with internally, and the full details passed on to the relevant civil authorities. But we have so far failed to fully deal with this issue. Let’s hope that that job is next on Pope Francis’s list.

I can agree with what you said with one large exception which is…
…The institution of Catholicism is pure water running through some very rusty pipes.
…As Islam itself permits child brides that equates to rusty water running through some very rusty pipes.

As humans, all of us, despite what religion we hail from - fight evil in our own lives and the world every day…
…As humans the last thing we need is the right to appeal to ‘God’ for justification to participate in an intrinsic evil.
…Muhammad married a girl of 6 years of age and waited until she was 8 or 9 to start “plowing her”.

Crude I know, but plowing is the term the Koran uses to describe a mans right to have sexual relations with his wife ( or slave ).

Did you get a chance to watch the NatGeo video I posted?

 

[jen_fla]

i think we are getting off track on this thread, but let me just say, that every human no matter what religious beliefs they hold are capable of doing evil. obviously many Christians have done some atrocious things and unfortunately will continue to do so. so i don’t think anyone here has a problem with muslims but rather with islam. the difference that many people don’t seem to get is that islam actually teaches things such as permission to beat your wife, kill someone who leaves the faith, lie to non-muslims etc. these are not distortions. the Catholic faith does not permit such things despite the many Catholics who have committed such acts. and no matter how many sicko priests were involved in abusing children the Church has NEVER condoned such behavior. ever. even if a group of sickos within the Church decided to cover such things up, again they were going against the faith.

i once heard an islamic scholar speak with peter kreeft. he said that in islam revenge is allowed, but mercy is better. we meet many wonderful muslims who chose the merciful path, but that does not negate the fact that revenge is actually allowed. revenge is never permissible in Christianity. can you find Christians that do engage in revenge and go against their faith? sure. there is no shortage of them. we are all human, but please don’t equivocate the teachings. a Christian is no better or worse than a muslim or anyone for that matter, but the teachings are not equal. i do not know how the bahai reconcile such contradictions in teachings, but again that is for another thread.

sorry to have butted in. that’s all i’m going to write.

 

[Brendan_64]

Did you get a chance to watch the NatGeo video I posted?

I’m afraid I haven’t yet. I’ve been up to my eyes planning and marking all weekend (I’m a teacher) and have a chest infection brewing. I will watch it when I get some time.

But with regard to the pure water flowing through rusty pipes analogy, that doesn’t really help the great many victims of the abuse that we allowed and are still failing to face up to or deal with properly. As far as much of the world is concerned when the hear the word Catholic they think of pedophile priests. Then when they see the Catholic Church speaking out against sexual sin they think, “Hypocrites!” Until our Church properly faces up to, deals with the culprits (including those who covered up and colluded) and is seen to deal with this issue, then we will not be taken seriously when we talk of morality. If we cannot exist as a light to the world then we will have no purpose in the world and we will simply diminish.

For the sake of the victims, our Church and humanity, we need to properly and seriously deal with the corruption and evil that we allowed to take root and flourish within our Church. Until we do this we really are in no position to lecture to the world on morality. I pray that Pope Francis deals with this properly, regardless of how high up the corruption goes. If he doesn’t then the future for our Church looks bleak.

Until we remove the log from our eye we are in no position to criticise the perceived faults of other faiths. However it is important to recognise that, in the midst of all the mire and corruption, like most Catholics, most Muslims are decent people.

 

[daler]

i think we are getting off track on this thread, but let me just say, that every human no matter what religious beliefs they hold are capable of doing evil. obviously many Christians have done some atrocious things and unfortunately will continue to do so. so i don’t think anyone here has a problem with muslims but rather with islam. the difference that many people don’t seem to get is that islam actually teaches things such as permission to beat your wife, kill someone who leaves the faith, lie to non-muslims etc. these are not distortions. the Catholic faith does not permit such things despite the many Catholics who have committed such acts. and no matter how many sicko priests were involved in abusing children the Church has NEVER condoned such behavior. ever. even if a group of sickos within the Church decided to cover such things up, again they were going against the faith.

i once heard an islamic scholar speak with peter kreeft. he said that in islam revenge is allowed, but mercy is better. we meet many wonderful muslims who chose the merciful path, but that does not negate the fact that revenge is actually allowed. revenge is never permissible in Christianity. can you find Christians that do engage in revenge and go against their faith? sure. there is no shortage of them. we are all human, but please don’t equivocate the teachings. a Christian is no better or worse than a muslim or anyone for that matter, but the teachings are not equal. i do not know how the bahai reconcile such contradictions in teachings, but again that is for another thread.

sorry to have butted in. that’s all i’m going to write.

Jen,
. Speaking as a Baha’i who has an interest in trying to get to the actual unbiased truth, which is far too often distorted, where “religions” are confused with the practice in the name of religion, which ever one it might be, I would like to say the following.

. As objectively as I could, I read much about the history of Islam to gain an impartial view, as best I could, on some of these controversial topics. My conclusions are that there is no solid proof that some of these practices are in fact “Islamic” in the fairest use of the word. No one can condone the abuse of children, as in the child bride problem, for it is obviously sick and twisted logic to permit any such behavior. What I think that speaks to is how far off humans can be led into justifying extreme behavior.

. For example, for thousands of years people rationalized the ownership of other human beings, categorizing them as sub-human, with whipping and torture common, even pointing to Bible verses to justify it all that time!!

. I think it is the same with this child bride scenario. From what I have read, I do not at all believe that Muhammad had sex with a child, although there are some Muslims who will say that He did, depending upon who you talk to and what has been handed down. For those who think that He did, there is this justification of child brides, etc. Fanatic types will bend all reason and history to justify their intentions, twisted logic, and behavior. This is the root of the problem, and masses of ignorant people just go along with it until it becomes “the norm”, like the idea that some people can “own” and whip other people, using whatever justifications they come up with.

. As to the traditions that Muhammad married a number of women, this is true, including the marriage to a child, but this was not consummated in her childhood, I don’t believe (with as much objectivity as I could bring to it). Some will say it was, others it wasn’t, for whatever their reasons are. But the problem is that the “child bride” supporters in Islam apparently justify their twisted logic and actions upon this assumption.

. You also mentioned the “wife beating” translation from a verse in the Quran, but the Arabic word “iridboo” has multiple meanings, and the best I can understand of the correct application of this term is not “beating”, but “separation”. There are stages of separation when problems exist in a marriage. An Arabic scholar told me this.

. I will say that the sad shape many religions end up in says more about the human factor, how fallible we are and willing to follow whatever becomes permissible in a society or what its “leaders” authorize. That in itself is twisted, to simply follow or allow others to think and feel for us, or not think and not feel…

 

[daler]

Dear Catholic and non-Catholic friends.

Today it was confirmed that the recent fatwa against Baha’is in Iran has claimed it’s first martyr.

My second cousin Mr.Ata’ullah Rezvani, beloved husband and father of two was callously shot for no other reason than being a prominent Bahai in his hometown of Bandar Abbas. His funeral today was attended by hundreds who flocked from all corners of Iran, many of which were Muslims, Jews and Christians, such was his saintly love and embrace for ALL peoples.

Dear friends, your prayers for his soul and for the solace of his family members would be dearly appreciated, as well as prayers for the safety of all Baha’is, who’s blood is being more fervently sought in Iran recently.

God bless you all

And now I am reading of the extreme harassment of the family of Mr Rezvani. The mullahs do not want the family to pursue the idea of asking the police for a normal investigation into homicide, which clearly was because of his Baha’i beliefs.

They are being threatened for accepting to be interviewed by the International Press.

How courageous this family is in the face of violence and hostility.

My prayers are with them…

 

[opus101]

And now I am reading of the extreme harassment of the family of Mr Rezvani. The mullahs do not want the family to pursue the idea of asking the police for a normal investigation into homicide, which clearly was because of his Baha’i beliefs.

They are being threatened for accepting to be interviewed by the International Press.

How courageous this family is in the face of violence and hostility.

My prayers are with them…

Prayers for their safety…

 

[daler]

Prayers for their safety…

Very much appreciate the prayers and concerns.

Daler