Please Provide Proof that Saints Can Really Hear Us

[ukdal1]

I am a candidate at my local Catholic church and my question is: How do we know that the saints can hear us? My family has a big problem with this and I would like to show them that it is true and real. I believe it because I have personally witnessed its effects, but if I told them that they would laugh in my face They say “I dont see it in the Bible anywhere, and for something like that that deals with life after death I cant just take someones’ word for it. The only way to know something like that (to me) is to read it in the Bible.” I was raised in the Baptist church so you can imagine how hard this is for me to tackle. I dont really have much knowledge on the subject. Please give me some more insight on this so I can help my Baptist family understand!!! Thanks!
Peace

 

[LilyM]

I am a candidate at my local Catholic church and my question is: How do we know that the saints can hear us? My family has a big problem with this and I would like to show them that it is true and real. I believe it because I have personally witnessed its effects, but if I told them that they would laugh in my face They say “I dont see it in the Bible anywhere, and for something like that that deals with life after death I cant just take someones’ word for it. The only way to know something like that (to me) is to read it in the Bible.” I was raised in the Baptist church so you can imagine how hard this is for me to tackle. I dont really have much knowledge on the subject. Please give me some more insight on this so I can help my Baptist family understand!!! Thanks!

                                     Peace

Don’t they take people’s (namely the Bible writers’) word for it that Jesus rose from the dead? That he’s the Son of God and the Messiah?

Click on ‘Library’ at the top here, then where it says ‘Mary and the Saints’. You’ll find some good information there on intercession of and prayer to saints. Plenty of Biblical backup, especially in Revelation.

 

[Cari]

I am a candidate at my local Catholic church and my question is: How do we know that the saints can hear us?

You could start by politely asking your family to prove to you that the saints ***can’t ***hear us. It’s very uncomfortable to always be on the defensive- asking them to prove their viewpoint would be a good starting place. Since, being Baptist, they adhere to the “Bible only” theory, ask them to show you where in the bible it says that the dead can’t hear the prayers of the living.

My family has a big problem with this and I would like to show them that it is true and real.

Perhaps they’re confused about the concept of asking for saintly intercession. They might be laboring under the misconception that Catholics think the saints cause the miracles themselves, rather than being vessels for God’s power. Certainly, if we believed that, say, St. Peregrine cured our friend of cancer, we would be wrong. But that’s not what we believe. We believe that saints, as Heavenly friends of the Blessed Trinity, pray with us, and present our prayers to God on our behalf. It’s just like asking our earthly brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us.

I believe it because I have personally witnessed its effects, but if I told them that they would laugh in my face

You’ll find lots of support here for dealing with family members who are hostile to your conversion. You’re in the right place!

They say "I dont see it in the Bible anywhere, and for something like that that deals with life after death I cant just take someones’ word for it.

The first part of this statement deals with the belief in sola scriptura. Here’s some links that can help you deal with that:
biblechristiansociety.com/download (free mp3s about a variety of topics, sola scriptura is one)
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0507bt.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9506vbv.asp

The second part, the “I can’t just take someone’s word for it” makes me wonder just what they WILL take. They take, obviously, the words of the Bible. Those are “someone’s word”. Do they mean they won’t take the Church’s word for it? Ask them what “proof” they would accept.

I was raised in the Baptist church so you can imagine how hard this is for me to tackle. I dont really have much knowledge on the subject.

Again, you’ve come to the right place. Run a search on the main website, www.catholic.com for any of the topics you’re needing help with. The other website, www.biblechristiansociety.com has lots of good mp3s, if you’ve got an mp3 player (I like listening to them on runs). And there’s tons of very nice people here who can help you out more.

Lastly, but most importantly, welcome home!

Cheers,
Cari

 

[cor]

If the Church and Satan are at war with each other, then the saints in heaven would want to participate in that war, including by responding to entreaties of them by Christians on earth. God would want them to be able to participate too so if they can’t naturally hear, I’m sure God by his power enables them to hear.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I’m sure God by his power enables them to hear.

Im protestant have attended Baptist quite a bit, (just for background)

But this struck me ukdal, you are arguing the wrong point with your family. I cant say what the saints may hear or not hear, but I have to be confident that if God wants them to hear them He will.

Why dont you take a different approach? instead of whats different how about whats the same in each faith? They would have to agree with what I just said. The difference is what the saints have with communication with you or me.

Read what Paul said about disagreeing, maybe you just have to agree to disagree on different things. But realise you agree on the “big” stuff. After all even pentacostals dont agree on things like the Rapture, so are not catholics and baptists allowed to disagree on things too?

Family unity would be a better thing to strive for rather than points. When our families are one, then we bind satans hands to bring us harm through disagreement.

Dont know just thoughts, the arguements we all have are not worth much if there is no harmony, I think thats what Paul was getting at.

 

[wardrandolph]

this may help:www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Todd_Easton]

When Peter raised Tabitha from the dead (Acts 9:40), her departed soul heard Peter’s command and returned to her body.

 

[FightingFat]

The answer that sprang immediately to my mind was that when someone is made a Saint, the process involves carefully proven miracles to take place. I.E. people praying to a specific Saint and asking for his intercession receive a miracle. This is one way the Church can discern that this person is definitely in Heaven.



Pretty good proof that the prayer was heard too eh?

 

[Cat]

The Transfiguration Luke 9-28-36

Vs. 30 and 31 says that Moses and Elijah were talking to Jesus of His departure, which He was about to accomplish in Jerusalem.

This indicates that those who have passed on ARE aware of what’s happening here on earth, which means they can hear (or at least see) us and know what is happening in our lives.

It is unclear why God sent Moses and Elijah to Jesus, but the fact that they were discussing the events to come implies that they were encouraging Him.

There aren’t too many other interpretations that make sense. Those who have died and are in heaven CAN know what’s happening to us and God CAN use them to help us.

 

[Bishopite]

[ukdal1;2145963]I am a candidate at my local Catholic church and my question is: How do we know that the saints can hear us?

Tell them in Luke 15:10 Jesus says “In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
How can the angels hear us? They are spirits as is God and as are the saints.

Also, Hebrews 12:1 “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,”
Previously in chapter 11 it is a chapter on hagiography (or study of the OT saints) which leads into chapter 12 which says we are surrounded by a “cloud of wittnesses” who are those in heaven who can see us.

My family has a big problem with this and I would like to show them that it is true and real. I believe it because I have personally witnessed its effects, but if I told them that they would laugh in my face They say “I dont see it in the Bible anywhere, and for something like that that deals with life after death I cant just take someones’ word for it. The only way to know something like that (to me) is to read it in the Bible.” I was raised in the Baptist church so you can imagine how hard this is for me to tackle. I dont really have much knowledge on the subject. Please give me some more insight on this so I can help my Baptist family understand!!! Thanks!

Peace

Be patient and pursevere. I was also raised Baptist and in time they will learn to ease up a bit but it takes time. You do need to study and learn how to defend the Catholic faith which takes time in order to show your family that their position isn’t the biblical nor historical nor reasonable one. Pray as much as you can, but also learn as much also. We will keep you up in prayer.

 

[VociMike]

In Rev 5:13, John, who was less than any saint in heaven (Matt 11:11) is nonetheless able to hear every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. From this is it clearly reasonable that saints (who are greater than John) would be able to hear those who pray to them (which is much less than hearing every creature).

Rev 5:13: And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!”

 

[promethius95945]

The Transfiguration Luke 9-28-36
Vs. 30 and 31 says that Moses and Elijah were talking to Jesus of His departure, which He was about to accomplish in Jerusalem.

This, I think, is the best scriptural verse supporting the intercession of the saints. If Jesus is well and truly the perfect example of the Christian faith, and we are to follow Him in all things, then it stands to reason that Jesus CHOSE to bring his apostles with them and CHOSE that they should see His example of communing with the saints.

Furthermore, there are errors in the posts above. Communion with the saints is NOT asking the “dead” to pray for us. The dead are well and truly gone (for the time being) and cannot hear us at all. The saints are different, they are ALIVE forever in the Grace of God. Being alive, they are well aware of the fact that suffering remains in this world.

The BEST proof of the intercession of saints, however, does not lie (specifically) in the bible. Obviously, all spiritual believes must also obey a basic logical pattern as well. If you want to convince your friends and family, this is the path to take:
1) Is God’s word over what is right an infinitely perfect command? Their answer should be yes.
2) Is God’s word and command infinite in both time and location?
Their answer should be yes.
3) Does God command that we pray for others?
Their answer should be yes.
4) Do the saints share the same power of God to be perfectly omniscient as God is?
while saints have perfect understanding, their answer should be no… because no one has knowledge of things in the way that God does

THE CONCLUSION:
–If God’s word is infinitely perfect then there is no higher command (no precedence of one command over the other… the command to pray for others is a PERFECT command).
–If God’s word is infinite in time and location, then ALL of God’s commands apply to both this existance AND to heaven (otherwise God’s will is not true in all times and places)
–Because God commands on earth that we pray for others, then His command extends to those ALIVE in heaven as well, where the saints (who are NOT dead) are required by command of God to pray for people.
–Because the saints aren’t omniscient in the same way as God, we must submit our requests to them for them to be able to pray for us (in the same way that we ask a friend who is also living on earth to pray for us).

 

[kell0618]

Pose the question: How do we know God can hear us?

 

[Franciscan]

The answer that sprang immediately to my mind was that when someone is made a Saint, the process involves carefully proven miracles to take place. I.E. people praying to a specific Saint and asking for his intercession receive a miracle. This is one way the Church can discern that this person is definitely in Heaven.



Pretty good proof that the prayer was heard too eh?

I was gonna say the same thing!

 

[John_Hiner]

Perhaps they’re confused about the concept of asking for saintly intercession. They might be laboring under the misconception that Catholics think the saints cause the miracles themselves, rather than being vessels for God’s power. Certainly, if we believed that, say, St. Peregrine cured our friend of cancer, we would be wrong. But that’s not what we believe.

Can you give me some argument for this statement. I certainly believe that the Saints have power and use it directly (at least as directly as I type or walk, given that I cannot do either of those things without God having created me, provided me with food, intellect, body, etc. and maintaining me in being – nevertheless, I believe that “I type,” or “I walk,” has meaning).

What do we make of these scriptures:

. . . Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. John 14:12 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)

His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant: because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Matthew 25:23 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)

And Jesus answering, said to them: Amen, I say to you, if you shall have faith, and stagger not, not only this of the fig tree shall you do, but also if you shall say to this mountain, Take up and cast thyself into the sea, it shall be done. Matthew 21:21 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)

And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. In these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ; and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)

I agree that we ask the Saints to pray for us, but I also think there are many prayers which ask the Saints for other things besides prayer. Is there some reason to think that the Saints are less independent in their actions than we are?

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner

 

[mardukm]

None of the answers given so far seem sufficient to answer the OP’s question.

The Transfiguration can’t be used as an example. Protestants will say that Christ, as God, can naturally communicate with the living saints departed from the earth. Further, the Apostles did not have direct communication with the patriarchs at the Transfiguration.

Acts 9:40 is pretty good, but the Protestant can easily counter that the Apostles were special.

Luke 15:10 is good, but Protestants will appeal to the difference between angels and saints.

Hebrews 12:1 is excellent, but it does not answer the OP’s question.

Appeal to St. John’s Revelation is easily toppled by considering that it was a special and unique grace for him to be able to communicate with the heavenly beings.

Can I present my opinion for your criticism?

I believe the correct answer is:

The Saints in heaven CANNOT hear us. As spirits they do not have the same faculties as material bodies. That admission must come first.

Next, point out that when we pray, it is actually the Holy Spirit that prays for us with deep groanings.

Since we are one body, we share the same Spirit.

THAT is HOW the Saints are able to “hear” us.

If your friends and family want proof that the Saints actually are aware of our prayers, then at that point, you turn them to Revelation, and point out that the elders in heaven (who are not angels, which meets the objection against Luke 15:10) offer the prayers of those on earth as incense at the heavenly altar.

Looking forward to your comments and criticisms.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Cari]

I agree that we ask the Saints to pray for us, but I also think there are many prayers which ask the Saints for other things besides prayer. Is there some reason to think that the Saints are less independent in their actions than we are?

How about this for clarification of my position? The Apostles, the saints, etc. who healed did so by channeling the power of God. It is not St. Peregrine who is healing us through his own power, but rather God using St. Peregrine as a vessel through which His healing and mercy flow. Does God need St. Peregrine to heal? Of course not. Can we appeal directly to God for healing? Of course. It is part of God’s infinite Goodness that He teaches and offers His children this means to grow in faith together.

I agree with you; however, I was thinking of a way to present a beginning discussion of saintly intercession to a Baptist audience, not necessarily a Catholic one.

 

[Erich]

Praying to the Saints states (among other things):

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

 

[cor]

Can you give me some argument for this statement. I certainly believe that the Saints have power and use it directly (at least as directly as I type or walk, given that I cannot do either of those things without God having created me, provided me with food, intellect, body, etc. and maintaining me in being – nevertheless, I believe that “I type,” or “I walk,” has meaning).

I agree with you 100%

 

[Rebecca_New]

The insence that is offered up to God in Revelations are the prayers of the saints in heaven-our requests for intercession.