Please Provide Proof that Saints Can Really Hear Us

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Uk, as a protestant I believe that the saints can not hear us on earth because heaven according to Isaiah is a land very far away. But, even I have to admit that angels visit heaven on a daily basis ( Job 1 ) and could make side trips to others in heaven, also people who have recenlty died can talk to others in heaven too.

Isaiah 33:17
Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Please give me some more insight on this so I can help my Baptist family understand! Thanks!

PART ONE

Communion of Saints Proved from Scripture

1. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ

“If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.”** (1 Corinthians 12:26**)
“If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you” (2 Corinthians 2:5)

2. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ

“Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” (Romans 12:4-5)

“The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

2.5 We become members of the Body of Christ through baptism

---

“having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)

“We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6:4)

“for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” (Galatians 3:27)

3. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)

**4. There is only one Body of Christ, in Heaven and on Earth; **

“by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:15-16)

“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-5)

**5. The Church is the Body of Christ; **

“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)

“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy” (Colossians 1:18)

**6. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another; **

“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Part Two

Jesus teaches from the Old Testament
“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

Jesus tells us plainly that the Father is the God of the living.

Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by parable
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ (Luke 16:19-31)

In this parable, Jesus has two of the “dead” characters in his story talking with one another, and one of the “dead” men intercedes on behalf of his living relatives.

Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by personal example
“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though.

Praying for the dead – Peter teaches by example
Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive. (Acts 9:40-41)

Of course, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, but it’s really interesting that Peter did something similar.

Those in Heaven Hear Our Prayers - John teaches through prophetic revelation
“He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:7-8)

The 24 elders in heaven are men, and notice that they each have a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. That’s us since we’re all saints! So, how did they get hold of our prayers in order to offer them to God?

 

[apriltherese]

If it must be proven, then faith means nothing. That’s like trying to “prove” God exisits. You can have good reasons to believe, but no actual, tangible proof.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

None of the answers given so far seem sufficient to answer the OP’s question.

The Transfiguration can’t be used as an example. Protestants will say that Christ, as God, can naturally communicate with the living saints departed from the earth. Further, the Apostles did not have direct communication with the patriarchs at the Transfiguration.

Acts 9:40 is pretty good, but the Protestant can easily counter that the Apostles were special.

Luke 15:10 is good, but Protestants will appeal to the difference between angels and saints.

Hebrews 12:1 is excellent, but it does not answer the OP’s question.

Appeal to St. John’s Revelation is easily toppled by considering that it was a special and unique grace for him to be able to communicate with the heavenly beings.

**Can I present my opinion for your criticism?

I believe the correct answer is:

The Saints in heaven CANNOT hear us. As spirits they do not have the same faculties as material bodies. That admission must come first.

Next, point out that when we pray, it is actually the Holy Spirit that prays for us with deep groanings.

Since we are one body, we share the same Spirit.

THAT** is HOW the Saints are able to “hear” us.
If your friends and family want proof that the Saints actually are aware of our prayers, then at that point, you turn them to Revelation, and point out that the elders in heaven (who are not angels, which meets the objection against Luke 15:10) offer the prayers of those on earth as incense at the heavenly altar.

Looking forward to your comments and criticisms.

Blessings,
Marduk

Excellent answer! :tiphat:

Ukdal as a Baptist/Pentacostal my vote is this one Marduk said.so clearly! (thanks Marduk) This makes sense in more than one way

 

[John_Hiner]

If it must be proven, then faith means nothing. That’s like trying to “prove” God exisits. You can have good reasons to believe, but no actual, tangible proof.

Dear April Therese:

I think the Church holds firmly that the existence of God is provable from creation and can be known with certainty by such proof. To deny this is a form of Modernism. It might be worth taking a look at:

Oath Against Modernism , which says in part:

"And first of all, I profess that God, the origin and end of all things, can be known with certainty by the natural light of reason from the created world, that is, from the visible works of creation, as a cause from its effects, and that, therefore, his existence can also be demonstrated (Ibid.),”

Pascendi Dominici Gregis, and

Lamentabili Sane (Syllabus Condemning the Errors of the Modernists).

One can lose touch with the concrete reality of the Faith, if these ideas are not clearly considered and kept firmly in mind. The Faith is a matter of fact and reality, and should not be relegated to merely “subjective experience” in the modern sense of that phrase.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[apriltherese]

Dear April Therese:

I think the Church holds firmly that the existence of God is provable from creation and can be known with certainty by such proof. To deny this is a form of Modernism. It might be worth taking a look at:

Oath Against Modernism , which says in part:

"And first of all, I profess that God, the origin and end of all things, can be known with certainty by the natural light of reason from the created world, that is, from the visible works of creation, as a cause from its effects, and that, therefore, his existence can also be demonstrated (Ibid.),”

Pascendi Dominici Gregis, and

Lamentabili Sane (Syllabus Condemning the Errors of the Modernists).

One can lose touch with the concrete reality of the Faith, if these ideas are not clearly considered and kept firmly in mind. The Faith is a matter of fact and reality, and should not be relegated to merely “subjective experience” in the modern sense of that phrase.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner

Yes, but what I’m saying is that would not be considered proof by a non-believer - not unless God puts it on their heart to turn toward Him. All that you’ve posted is proof enough for me, but if we could convince athiests, then all our problems would be solved. Faith does not rely on proof.

 

[John_Hiner]

Yes, but what I’m saying is that would not be considered proof by a non-believer - not unless God puts it on their heart to turn toward Him. All that you’ve posted is proof enough for me, but if we could convince athiests, then all our problems would be solved. Faith does not rely on proof.

Dear April Therese:

It is certainly true that atheists are unreasonable. As the documents I cited make clear, atheists (and others) take great pains to re-define “reason” so that it is so limited that it becomes impotent.

Reason properly understood, however, is well able to comprehend the truth of God’s existence from the evidence of creation.

“Modern philosophy” has shown clearly that, unless it is grounded in the truths of the Faith, “reason” as defined by the atheists loses all reliable connection to reality and becomes self-defeating.

I think it is important to appreciate that when a person is convinced by such arguments from creation (as you are), he or she is being reasonable in the proper sense of that word. This is important when one is trying to calibrate his sense of what is reasonable.

Thank you for helping to clarify this point.

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner