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bpbasilphx
Guest
In these discussions of traditional Catholicism, please remember that the EASTERN Catholics and all their disciplines, including married priests, are traditional, too.
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Freshman88
Guest
Yup, but they aren’t the western tradition! And it certainly is NOT a reason for the Latins to have married priests.
Leave Eastern Catholcism for the Slavs, Greeks and Middle easterners.
The rest of us have the Roman rite to worry about.
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VociMike
Guest
Absolutely. IMO the Eastern Catholics bring to the Church an essential richness.
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Freshman88
Guest
IMO they are the TRUE orthodox Church. I wish our own church would do a better job of making this point clear.
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Aramis
Guest
Amen!
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Freshman88
Guest
ohhh, a Ruthenian, my grandfather was a Ruthenian (Lemko), but always went to a Ukrainian catholic Church - he didn’t seem to think that there was a difference. I’ve always wondered what the differences between the Ukrainian and Ruthenian catholic churches are.
Anyway, didn’t mean to go on a tangent
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Aramis
Guest
Ruthenian vs Ukrainian: Rubrics for sitting (Ruthenians have it), extensive and earlier use of English vernacular.
Different English translations from the Slavonic; Ruthenians (since last year) using a translation from the Greek instead.
Many Ruthenian parishes ripped out their iconostasi during the reign of His Grace Nicholas T. + Elko. Most have put them back.
The Ruthenian Metropolitan Church is entirely American (The european Ruthenians are not part of it, but are direct papal exarchies), while the Ukrainian church is a Major Archiepiscopal church spanning the Ukraine and the rest of the world.
But the DL is the same, most of the traditions are the same, and the Traditions are the same.
Ukrainian chant is often polyphonic, Ruthenian is not.
Both adhere to the Byzantine Traditions while maintaining union with Rome.
All of the recent changes in both Churches have been to restore Byzantine Tradition and eliminate accretions of Latinization.
And for the most part, it is going well. There are some, however, who want to see the “traditions” developed in the last 200 years kept. In the Ukrainian church within the Ukraine, these are falling to the SSPX-affiliated Fraternal Society of St. Josephat.
I am not aware of comparable organizations in the Ruthenian Metropolitan Church.
Oh, and of course, different bishops, and the Ukrainians kept married priests, while the Ruthenians didn’t. But we’ve got some now.
Different English translations from the Slavonic; Ruthenians (since last year) using a translation from the Greek instead.
Many Ruthenian parishes ripped out their iconostasi during the reign of His Grace Nicholas T. + Elko. Most have put them back.
The Ruthenian Metropolitan Church is entirely American (The european Ruthenians are not part of it, but are direct papal exarchies), while the Ukrainian church is a Major Archiepiscopal church spanning the Ukraine and the rest of the world.
But the DL is the same, most of the traditions are the same, and the Traditions are the same.
Ukrainian chant is often polyphonic, Ruthenian is not.
Both adhere to the Byzantine Traditions while maintaining union with Rome.
All of the recent changes in both Churches have been to restore Byzantine Tradition and eliminate accretions of Latinization.
And for the most part, it is going well. There are some, however, who want to see the “traditions” developed in the last 200 years kept. In the Ukrainian church within the Ukraine, these are falling to the SSPX-affiliated Fraternal Society of St. Josephat.
I am not aware of comparable organizations in the Ruthenian Metropolitan Church.
Oh, and of course, different bishops, and the Ukrainians kept married priests, while the Ruthenians didn’t. But we’ve got some now.
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nick817
Guest
It is sad to see the attitude of Catholics toward sspx and other traditionalist groups. John Paull II was quick to condemn them, but, not as quick as he was to go infront of the world and kiss a qu’ran.
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jj2011
Guest
I was not even raised Byzantine, but I have seen some pictures of Latinized churches, and they’re shocking.
Why, oh why would any bishop allow, much less carry out these acts of liturgical hara kiri?
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Aramis
Guest
Well, he ended his life as a Roman Rite Auxiliary Bishop and Titualar Archbishop.
Some of the Latinizations were popular adoptions of Latin traditions brought by the people either to conform or by the switching of rite: Statues, Public Rosaries, Stations of the Cross, adoration & exposition…
Some had good (but not valid) theological basis: Removal of the Iconostasi was to enable the people to see the priest(s) during the liturgy. This is a good intent, but one that is not valid, since the rubrics call for the Iconostas. Some parishes instead used grillwork iconostasi… a valid compromise. One of the few I will miss.
The FSSJ are fighting to KEEP the liturgical abuses of the last 125 years… with the blessings and encouragement of the SSPX. They even have had an SSPX bishop “ordain” a dozen priests. (Ordain is in quotes, because the bishop so doing was excommunicated formally by Pope John Paul II, and thus, being cut off from the church, can neither validly nor licitly ordain anyone within the church.)
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bpbasilphx
Guest
**Leave Eastern Catholcism for the Slavs, Greeks and Middle easterners. **
Fooey with that idea!
What happened to the Romanians in your catalogue? The Romanians, as you can tell from their very name and language, are a LATIN people, but predominantly of the Byzantine (Orthodox or Catholic) tradition.
I’m pure Anglo-Scotch-Irish, and I’m DEVOTED to the Byzantine spiritual traditions, including the Liturgy. You can’t take that away from me!
BTW–I know an Orthodox monk who is pure Orangeman in ancestry. He bakes orange shamrock cookies on St. Patrick’s day.
Fooey with that idea!
What happened to the Romanians in your catalogue? The Romanians, as you can tell from their very name and language, are a LATIN people, but predominantly of the Byzantine (Orthodox or Catholic) tradition.
I’m pure Anglo-Scotch-Irish, and I’m DEVOTED to the Byzantine spiritual traditions, including the Liturgy. You can’t take that away from me!
BTW–I know an Orthodox monk who is pure Orangeman in ancestry. He bakes orange shamrock cookies on St. Patrick’s day.
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jj2011
Guest
I have to respect the Carpatho-Irish…
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Irish_Melkite
Guest
Freshman,
Well, if that was your paternal grandfather of whom you speak, then you are almost assuredly a canonical Ruthenian Catholic - not a Latin.
As to his attending a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic church, if he lived in Canada (as your profile suggests you do), he would have had no choice as there are no Ruthenian parishes there - the Ruthenians in Canada being committed to the pastoral care of the Slovak Greek-Catholics presently (but to that of the Ukrainians before the Slovak Eparchy was erected).
Many years,
Neil, unappreciative of the rude comment to “leave Eastern Catholicism to …”
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