Please Respond: Typical Female Ordination Stuff

[Elijah_Baley]

While I personally understand the whole of the reasoning behind permitting men only to enter the priesthood, there are some specific claims I’m unable to answer. Please refute the following five claims, if only by pointing out the straw man distortions:

---

**1. FALSE: Women (by virtue of their sex) cannot image Christ.
**TRUE: It is the call of every female and male Christian to image Christ; and it is the call of every female and male Christian to see Christ in every person.

**2. FALSE: Roman Catholic women have never been ordained.
**TRUE: Epigraphic evidence exists of women bishops. Until at least the ninth century the Church gave women the full sacramental ordination of deacons. Women priests existed in the West during the 4th and 5th centuries according to literary evidence, and according to epigraphic evidence.

3. FALSE: Roman Catholic women have not been ordained deacons or priests
in the modern era.
TRUE: Ludmila Javorova, ordained priest, December 28, 1970, among other women ordained. For a list of other women ordained, please visit the History Page.

**4. FALSE: These ordinations as women priests are not recognized or valid.
**TRUE: The group “Roman Catholic Womenpriests” receives its authority from Roman Catholic bishops who stand in full Apostolic Succession. These bishops bestowed sacramentally valid ordinations on the women listed above.

**5. FALSE: Mandatory celibacy goes back to the earliest days of the church.
**TRUE: Scripture citations refer to the marriage of Simon Peter. Citations also refer to married bishops, priests and deacons in the earliest Christian churches. Mandatory celibacy was universally required in the 12th century at the First Lateran Council in 1123.

1.) Jesus heals Simon Peter’s mother-in-law Matthew 8:14; Mark 1:30; Luke 4:38.

2.) 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop must be irreproachable married only once. 1 Timothy 3:4 A bishop must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity.

3.) 1 Timothy 3:12 Deacons may be married only once and must manage their
children and their households well.

---

While I wish to be charitable in all circumstances, heterodoxy would be inappropriate for my purposes.

 

[NewsTheMan]

**1. FALSE: Women (by virtue of their sex) cannot image Christ.
**TRUE: It is the call of every female and male Christian to image Christ; and it is the call of every female and male Christian to see Christ in every person.

Two different things. If you understand - as we do, rightly - that a Priest is In Persona Christi then only a man can do it. The ‘imaging’ of Christ is different, that is more about how we behave, think, act. In another sense, its like being made in God’s image.

**2. FALSE: Roman Catholic women have never been ordained.
**TRUE: Epigraphic evidence exists of women bishops. Until at least the ninth century the Church gave women the full sacramental ordination of deacons. Women priests existed in the West during the 4th and 5th centuries according to literary evidence, and according to epigraphic evidence.

Haha! Really? Ask for this ‘evidence’ - and it must be hard proof not some flimsy proof of women Bishops! And similarly for women Deacons, and Priests. This statement is just an outright lie. Ask for full proof and check all sources if they happen to give you proof. Must be a historical figure, must be in communion with Rome, must not be heretical/schismatic, must be real literary evidence (by that I mean, not a poem or story, it must be presented as documented if that makes sense)

3. FALSE: Roman Catholic women have not been ordained deacons or priests
in the modern era.
TRUE: Ludmila Javorova, ordained priest, December 28, 1970, among other women ordained. For a list of other women ordained, please visit the History Page.

Oh really? Ok here is a similar proof.
False: Obama is the President of the United States
True: NewsTheMan declares Obama a false President and elects himself as President.

Well… except… It doesn’t work that way. Sure, any old person can say “I am a Catholic Priest” but that doesn’t make it so. No women has ever been validly ordained. And since ordination needs to be valid (duh), one cannot be a Priest if it is invalid.

**4. FALSE: These ordinations as women priests are not recognized or valid.
**TRUE: The group “Roman Catholic Womenpriests” receives its authority from Roman Catholic bishops who stand in full Apostolic Succession. These bishops bestowed sacramentally valid ordinations on the women listed above.

… Absolutely false. If this were the case - why would there need to be apologetics about it? Why would you need to justify it? Why would there be argument about it? If Rome was happy with it surely it would be a settled matter. Well, the above “True” is actually false. If any valid Bishop has ordained a women, he is a heretic. In fact let me add - no woman can ever be validly ordained even if the Pope himself did it - the matter of the sacrament is “Male”.

**5. FALSE: Mandatory celibacy goes back to the earliest days of the church.
**TRUE: Scripture citations refer to the marriage of Simon Peter. Citations also refer to married bishops, priests and deacons in the earliest Christian churches. Mandatory celibacy was universally required in the 12th century at the First Lateran Council in 1123.

1.) Jesus heals Simon Peter’s mother-in-law Matthew 8:14; Mark 1:30; Luke 4:38.

2.) 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop must be irreproachable married only once. 1 Timothy 3:4 A bishop must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity.

3.) 1 Timothy 3:12 Deacons may be married only once and must manage their
children and their households well.

Nothing we don’t already know, really. I am sure there is a lot on the main site that can help with this.

 

[hartleymartin]

I am referring to a pamphlet written by George Cardinal Pell (Archbishop of Sydney)

**1. FALSE: Women (by virtue of their sex) cannot image Christ.
**TRUE: It is the call of every female and male Christian to image Christ; and it is the call of every female and male Christian to see Christ in every person.

**2. FALSE: Roman Catholic women have never been ordained.
**TRUE: Epigraphic evidence exists of women bishops. Until at least the ninth century the Church gave women the full sacramental ordination of deacons. Women priests existed in the West during the 4th and 5th centuries according to literary evidence, and according to epigraphic evidence.

There were no women priests or bishops. There did exist the “deaconess”. However, the role of the “deaconess” was limited to particular circumstances, such as when baptism was carried out by full immersion and when anointing was done on the whole body - it would have been unseemly for a priest to lay his hands all over a woman’s body, so the deaconess serves as an intermediary between the clergy and the laity where it would be inappropriate for a man to act. Since we no longer fully immerse in baptism or whole-body anointing, the deaconess is no longer required. The role of a deacon remains to help proclaim the gospel and to act in charitable works, and was a different ministry to that of the priest or bishop.

The roles of the deaconess have either become redundant or are now covered by orders of religious women. Roles such as teaching, caring for the sick, etc are now well-covered by women in religious orders. Eg. The Josephite sisters (founded by St Mary-of-the-Cross MacKillop and Fr. Julian Tenison-Woods) run schools for the poor.

In any case, I would challenge the so-called “evidence”, and they would have to prove that this was done in full communion with the church in Rome.

3. FALSE: Roman Catholic women have not been ordained deacons or priests
in the modern era.
TRUE: Ludmila Javorova, ordained priest, December 28, 1970, among other women ordained. For a list of other women ordained, please visit the History Page.

There was never any such thing as a woman-priest or a woman-bishop except those found in heretical or schismatic churches. In any case, I would challenge the so-called “evidence”, and they would have to prove that this was done in full communion with the church in Rome.

**4. FALSE: These ordinations as women priests are not recognized or valid.
**TRUE: The group “Roman Catholic Womenpriests” receives its authority from Roman Catholic bishops who stand in full Apostolic Succession. These bishops bestowed sacramentally valid ordinations on the women listed above.

There was never any such thing as a woman-priest or a woman-bishop except those found in heretical or schismatic churches. In any case, I would challenge the so-called “evidence”, and they would have to prove that this was done in full communion with the church in Rome.

**5. FALSE: Mandatory celibacy goes back to the earliest days of the church.
**TRUE: Scripture citations refer to the marriage of Simon Peter. Citations also refer to married bishops, priests and deacons in the earliest Christian churches. Mandatory celibacy was universally required in the 12th century at the First Lateran Council in 1123.

1.) Jesus heals Simon Peter’s mother-in-law Matthew 8:14; Mark 1:30; Luke 4:38.

2.) 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop must be irreproachable married only once. 1 Timothy 3:4 A bishop must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity.

3.) 1 Timothy 3:12 Deacons may be married only once and must manage their
children and their households well.

Whilst it is true that celibacy was not manditory in the early church, and indeed there were some married priests. St Phillip (the apostle) and Phillip, one of the seven deacons were married with children. St Peter also had a mother-in-law, but there is no mention of his wife in scripture (perhaps she was deceased?) There is no other documentary evidence that any of the apostles or their immediate successors were married. Celibate priesthood comes from Jewish traditions. Even thought the council of Nicea in 325AD refused to outlaw married clergy, from the earliest times, priests were urged to remain single men and celibate. In 1139 marriage of clergy was made invalid and unlawful in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, and it was re-affirmed at the Council of Trent in 1545-1563.

You can ask many priests, and they say that they chose celibacy for the benefit of their ministry. A single man holds no reservations to dying for his faith, as he does not need to consider the needs of a wife or children. A celibate priest need not divide his love between God and wife, but can give himself completely to God. A single man can pack-up and leave for missionary work in remote places at short notice without having to consider the educational needs of children in schools, etc.

The Latin Rite has an order of permanent deacons which are married men. A small number of exceptions are made for Anglican Priests (whom are allowed to marry) to keep their wives after converting to Catholicism and by ordained Catholic Priests.

The Eastern Rites of the Catholic church permit married priests, but they cannot marry or re-marry after ordination to holy orders, and bishops are required to be celibate, single men.

 

[laszlo]

In the Roman Catholic Church the Magisterium, and not think thank of lay person makes the rules. The Catholic Church clearly decided that females should not be ordained as priests or bishops.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrespo.htm

 

[Matthew_Holford]

**5. FALSE: Mandatory celibacy goes back to the earliest days of the church.
**TRUE: Scripture citations refer to the marriage of Simon Peter. Citations also refer to married bishops, priests and deacons in the earliest Christian churches. Mandatory celibacy was universally required in the 12th century at the First Lateran Council in 1123.

This fifth point bears no relevance to the ordination of women. Priestly celibacy is not a doctrine but a matter of discipline. There are married permanent deacons and married priests in the Latin Catholic Church. Therefore, more contemporary examples could have been given. Even if the Church chose to ordain women it could make the rule that they be celibate.

That this point was even put forward as part of the case for the ordination of women demonstrates how weak their case is.