Please share your wisdom when defending the Catholic homosexuality teachings

[tskrobacz]

tsk
**
I suspect not everyone is as certain as yourself on these matters. As a matter of faith, certainty is the opposite of true faith which always allows room for the Spirit to move us…Notice the authority to “loosen” is not uniquely given to Peter but also in Matthew 18:18 to all followers of Jesus. **

Only Protestants think like that. Every man his own pope.

No wonder there are thousands of Protestant sects. Not exactly what Christ had in mind.

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21
“Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:16).

“I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith you were called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long suffering, forbearing one another in love; giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one Faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all” Saint Paul (Ephesians 4:2-6).

The overwhelming evidence is that diversity is exactly what Christ had in mind. The vast majority of people have been poor, even in Jesus’ time. The people who wrote the books and controlled the institutions, however, have almost always been on the right. Much of history has been read and interpreted from the side of the "winners,” or the right, except for the unique revelation called the Bible, which is an alternative history from the side of the enslaved, the dominated, the oppressed, and the poor, leading up to the totally scapegoated Jesus.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

The overwhelming evidence is that diversity is exactly what Christ had in mind. The vast majority of people have been poor, even in Jesus’ time. The people who wrote the books and controlled the institutions, however, have almost always been on the right. Much of history has been read and interpreted from the side of the "winners,” or the right, except for the unique revelation called the Bible, which is an alternative history from the side of the enslaved, the dominated, the oppressed, and the poor, leading up to the totally scapegoated Jesus.

Jesus indeed challenged the hypocrites among the rich and religious leaders during His time. He attracted the poor, the sick, and the sinners who sought answers to their problems and questions. He preached love and the exercise of justice for all. But He did not preach acceptance for various and a diversity of sins, and certainly not unrepented sins.

It is obvious why those promoting and practicing homosexuality are pushing for a revisionist reading of Old Testament condemnation of homosexual sins and the reasons Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, for example.
,

 

[JoArtist]

Jesus indeed challenged the hypocrites among the rich and religious leaders during His time. He attracted the poor, the sick, and the sinners who sought answers to their problems and questions. He preached love and the exercise of justice for all. But He did not preach acceptance for various and a diversity of sins, and certainly not unrepented sins.

It is obvious why those promoting and practicing homosexuality are pushing for a revisionist reading of Old Testament condemnation of homosexual sins and the reasons Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, for example.
,

I could be wrong, but I believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their in-hospitality , not the homosexuality. Isn’t the homosexual requests to gang rape the foreigners that Lot had to show how in-hospitable they were? Also then Lot offered them his virgin daughters to gang rape instead, and God still counted him as holy and saved him. I think that it is more of a story to teach hospitality then to condemn homosexual acts. Now I am not saying that homosexual acts are okay, just that this isn’t what that story was about.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I could be wrong, but I believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their in-hospitality , not the homosexuality. Isn’t the homosexual requests to gang rape the foreigners that Lot had to show how in-hospitable they were? Also then Lot offered them his virgin daughters to gang rape instead, and God still counted him as holy and saved him. I think that it is more of a story to teach hospitality then to condemn homosexual acts. Now I am not saying that homosexual acts are okay, just that this isn’t what that story was about.

49 Behold this was the iniquity of Sodom thy sister, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance, and the idleness of her, and of her daughters: and they did not put forth their hand to the needy, and to the poor.

Not seeing homosexual acts in there, but frankly it doesn’t matter if the iniquity included homosexual acts or not, the Church has said homosexual acts are wrong and thus it is so (plus IIRC there is stuff against it in the NT)

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

The wording of the Church could be improved since it makes human sexuality seem mechanistic when in reality eros can’t be simply removed like a cog. Our attractions whether consciously or not do indeed shape our interactions.

 

[FreeSpirit1]

I would like to add another point.

The male and female union in marriage supports an atmosphere ideal for the proper raising of children. For instance, the two sexes are generally complimentary. The male is conditional in his love for his children; this is not to say that the father does not unconditionally love his children in the least, but acts usually differently; while the female is usually more unconditional. Furthermore, the psychological development of children is enhanced when children have the chance to view the opposite sex free of the thought of the possibility of “union” with him or her.

Please tell me your objections to this point.

Hello Fish90,

While I agree with you, the objection I got from this is an easy, back of the hand dismissal, in the type: “nonsense, the children get as much of a healthy, sane education from homosexual parents as with heterosexual parents”.

What would be a christian reply to that?

Thanks,

Your sister in Christ.

 

[JoArtist]

Not seeing homosexual acts in there, but frankly it doesn’t matter if the iniquity included homosexual acts or not, the Church has said homosexual acts are wrong and thus it is so (plus IIRC there is stuff against it in the NT)

I said in my post that I was not condoning homosexual acts. If you would have read it thoroughly you would of seen that.

 

[FreeSpirit1]

tsk

In both Matthew 16:13-20 and Matthew 18:18 Jesus gives us (both Peter and his followers) power to both strengthen and loosen the laws:

And they strengthened the laws, so far as homosexuality and female priests are concerned. Case closed.

Specifically, what Charlemagne quotes refers to in Matthew 16:13-20 is:

[bibledrb]Matthew 16:13-20[/bibledrb]

and Matthew 16:18 is:

[bibledrb]Matthew 16:18[/bibledrb]

 

[joshrp]

Please help me answer in a sensitive, credible manner objections to Church teachings about homosexuality.

As I watch ‘Chaz’ on Oprah, the woman-turned-man (transgender), daughter of the famous Sony and Cher couple, it puts the spotlight back onto what I realized a while ago: public opinion (or what public media would have us think) is miles away from Catholic teachings, regarding many points: all priests are pedophiles, women should be allowed to be ordained as priests, priest to be allowed to be married, etc…

The ‘all priests are pedophiles’ preconceptions I could handle. Time magazine ran an article in summer 2009 how unfounded and exaggerated this thinking is.

The “women should be allowed to be ordained to be priest” I can handle: it comes down to a question of power. Our Lord asks us to be servants, not power-hungry. Also, we are, when baptised, made “kings, prophets, and priests” (working on the bible reference). So women are already priests from baptism! I, as a woman, have no problem here. I just live my faith as best I can and as a ‘lay’ person, I have so much to learn and live by.

But homosexuality is different. These people are ‘born this way’, as Lady Gaga sings.

To anybody wondering, I personally have no homosexual inclinations. I usually will shy away from homosexuals, either male or female, because I want to avoid the issue, avoid the confrontation. I don’t have other answers than textbook Catechism of the Catholic Church, which maybe too cold, harsh answer when dealing such a delicate issue. I’m looking for answers on this issue with my friends and family who are heterosexual, but disagree with the Church’s teachings, having been won over by ‘public opinion’ shaped by media.

Perhaps some of you out there have the experience and have pointers to give, perhaps some of you have already struggled with close ones about this issue, and prayed through it… I would appreciate your wisdom.

Thanks,

Your sister in Christ.

The way I see it, is that homosexuals are forced to be homosexuals for the rest of their life, and they cannot choose who they are attracted to sexually. Now if a person has homosexual attractions, and does not want them, these people will say that they are stuck that way and can’t change, and should accept that they are ontologically homosexual. This is a lie. People have changed themselve so that they can have healthy heterosexual attractions after they have sought support and help from professional psychologists and therapists. If a person does not want to be gay, you should support them as much as you can to help them change, because it can be done. If you want to be gay, fine. But don’t go brainwashing people that they have to be something that they are not. If a homosexual wants a right to practice their lifestyle and follow their beliefs, then they need to respect a Catholic who suffers from unwanted same sex attraction if they want to live up to the principles of their chosen faith and change. And they should support that. They push this “You can’t change.” lie so they can defend their lustful behavior. I don’t hate gay people. But really, this is no good for them.

I recommend you go to the NARTH website. NARTH stands for National Association for Research on Therapy for Homosexuality. I learned more about this issue from them than from anywhere else. And honestly, I don’t really talk about this issue to people. I’m not ready to talk about it with anyone. I won’t bring up the subject myself. But if it comes up I might put my two cents in, I might not. Who knows? Depends on what the context is.

 

[FreeSpirit1]

Hello Ahs, Rence, followintheway, Debora123, fish90, chris92, Dakota Roberts, tskrobacz, Charlemagne II, michelleds, timothyH, JoArtist, manualman, InSearchofGrace:

Thank you all for your replies so far.

So far, in an analytical-type of fashion, I see two extremes:

• On one hand, the Church’s teachings, which Rence has presented in a clear (very convincing) manner.
• One the other hand,
  [bibledrb]matthew 16:19[/bibledrb]

the fact that the ‘rules’ may be changed (matthew 16:19), but then again, on what basis? That it makes life easier for homosexuals? If so, then why not pedophiles and incest customs? I don’t think so. The ‘rules’ basis is Tradition, Truth, and Humanity. “Ah hhaaaaaaa” you object, precisely! On the basis of compassion, we should not impose the homosexuals with more sins on their conscience!

I certainly have a lot of reading, studying, thinking and praying to do

When I have time, I plan to post a list of references and quotes to sum up the Church’s teachings. It will help me when discussing the issue.

Again,

Thanks, and keep posting!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Just curious:

Is the poll in this thread open to Catholics or to anyone?
If to anyone, what use is it? I am only interested in what Catholics think about Church teachings. If non-Catholics and atheists are going to get in on the act, and if they vote overwhelmingly against Church teaching, I think the results of the poll will be so skewered as to be useless.

 

[FreeSpirit1]

Just curious:

Is the poll in this thread open to Catholics or to anyone?
If to anyone, what use is it? I am only interested in what Catholics think about Church teachings. If non-Catholics and atheists are going to get in on the act, and if they vote overwhelmingly against Church teaching, I think the results of the poll will be so skewered as to be useless.

The poll is open to anyone with an account in this Forum, which is a Catholic forum.
While it is possible to be an atheist, or a protestant, and have an account in this Catholic forum, I suspect most are Catholics, or at least interested in the faith.

I wonder what you mean by the “poll becomes skewered”: that the poll would not reflect the Churche’s teachings?.. it is not the objective. It would simply reflect what some people in the forum have answered. It is not a global view and cannot be taken for the ‘truth’.

I’m more interested in a discussion in which I can learn the arguments to the Church’s teachings, it’s references, etc… but most of all the wisdom gained through prayer, as the homosexuality issue, like all unpopular ones (a few examples being: celibacy of priests, not using contraceptives during marriage, women ‘excluded’ from priesthood, the bible is not credible, etc…) is difficult to discuss about (for me anyways).

Thanks for your concern, Charlemagne II!

Keep posting!

 

[fish90]

Hello Fish90,

While I agree with you, the objection I got from this is an easy, back of the hand dismissal, in the type: “nonsense, the children get as much of a healthy, sane education from homosexual parents as with heterosexual parents”.

What would be a christian reply to that?

Thanks,

Your sister in Christ.

Not enough credible evidence to confirm that.

Would that be a good response?

 

[FreeSpirit1]

Not enough credible evidence to confirm that.

Would that be a good response?

I would certainly try it!

 

[Mamas_Boy]

Please help me answer in a sensitive, credible manner objections to Church teachings about homosexuality.

As I watch ‘Chaz’ on Oprah, the woman-turned-man (transgender), daughter of the famous Sony and Cher couple, it puts the spotlight back onto what I realized a while ago: public opinion (or what public media would have us think) is miles away from Catholic teachings, regarding many points: all priests are pedophiles, women should be allowed to be ordained as priests, priest to be allowed to be married, etc…

The ‘all priests are pedophiles’ preconceptions I could handle. Time magazine ran an article in summer 2009 how unfounded and exaggerated this thinking is.

The “women should be allowed to be ordained to be priest” I can handle: it comes down to a question of power. Our Lord asks us to be servants, not power-hungry. Also, we are, when baptised, made “kings, prophets, and priests” (working on the bible reference). So women are already priests from baptism! I, as a woman, have no problem here. I just live my faith as best I can and as a ‘lay’ person, I have so much to learn and live by.

But homosexuality is different. These people are ‘born this way’, as Lady Gaga sings.

To anybody wondering, I personally have no homosexual inclinations. I usually will shy away from homosexuals, either male or female, because I want to avoid the issue, avoid the confrontation. I don’t have other answers than textbook Catechism of the Catholic Church, which maybe too cold, harsh answer when dealing such a delicate issue. I’m looking for answers on this issue with my friends and family who are heterosexual, but disagree with the Church’s teachings, having been won over by ‘public opinion’ shaped by media.

Perhaps some of you out there have the experience and have pointers to give, perhaps some of you have already struggled with close ones about this issue, and prayed through it… I would appreciate your wisdom.

Thanks,

Your sister in Christ.

Hello FreeSpirit

I understand this feeling all too well since I have two homosexual brothers that I love dearly. I never knew what to say or how to approach the subject. All I knew was I wanted to let my brothers know what I believe while showing them that I still care for them deeply. After thinking about my dilemma I decided how I was going to approach the issue. Actions speak louder than words so with that said I looked toward myself to become a better Catholic and to be open with what I believe. With that said my brothers know I’m Catholic and they know I love them. They also know that I do not agree with them on issues pertaining to homosexuality and that my stance is not built upon any sort of hatred for them but rather out love for them.

I guess what I’m trying to say is; you have to show the gospel before you can preach it. If God gives you the opportunity to preach it then pray to the Holy Spirit because the only one that can show others the light and change the hearts of man is God.

I hope this helped.

Please pray for me.

 

[FreeSpirit1]

Hello FreeSpirit

I understand this feeling all too well since I have two homosexual brothers that I love dearly. I never knew what to say or how to approach the subject. All I knew was I wanted to let my brothers know what I believe while showing them that I still care for them deeply. After thinking about my dilemma I decided how I was going to approach the issue. Actions speak louder than words so with that said I looked toward myself to become a better Catholic and to be open with what I believe. With that said my brothers know I’m Catholic and they know I love them. They also know that I do not agree with them on issues pertaining to homosexuality and that my stance is not built upon any sort of hatred for them but rather out love for them.

I guess what I’m trying to say is; you have to show the gospel before you can preach it. If God gives you the opportunity to preach it then pray to the Holy Spirit because the only one that can show others the light and change the hearts of man is God.

I hope this helped.

Please pray for me.

Thanks for sharing this! I wish more like us Catholics would come out and not stay in shame about the Church teachings! We need to be humble but proud :ehh:

Wow, in a way, it seems your homosexual brothers are motivating you to become a better Catholic… by example. It’s great that you took it upon yourself. I hope you have the time and conviction for regular prayer, because with God all things are possible.

Have you looked into the Church’s teachings and other serious sources about SSA (same sex attraction: I learned that from this thread!). Did any help? Do share!

 

[FreeSpirit1]

A lot of people are under the false impression that the Church discriminates against gay people. That is so not true. In fact, the Church discrimates against everybody equally

Seriously though, the rules that the Church imposes on gay people, they impose on all unmarried heterosexuals as well…and married couples too. The rules are all the same.

The Church recognizes homosexual orientation. I do not believe it’s a choice. I think they were “born this way”. Regardless of whether it is a choice, or not, the rules of the Church are the same. Their burden is to be celibate just like an unmarried priest or a nun…or a single lay person. And the same rules apply that call a married couple to be chaste in their marriage - which means only having licit sex. It is not a “sin” in the eyes of the Church to be gay. It is a sin to engage in immoral sexual behavior.

The Church teaches that sex is only moral if it has two required properties 1) unitive and 2) procreative. That’s what the Church teaches for ALL. There are no exceptions to the rules within the Church’s teachings regarding sex.

1. Gay couples cannot be unitive (the parts just don’t fit), nor can they be procreative (only a man and a woman can conceive). Therefore their sexcapades are not licit in the eyes of the Church. This teaching is not going to change and it’s not outdated. It, in fact, makes perfect sense.
2. Heterosexual unmarried couples have the procreative property, but not the unitive because they are not married in the eyes of the Church. Therefore their sexcapades are not licit in the eyes of the Church. This teaching is not going to change. It is not outdated, and like it or not, it makes perfect sense.
3. In addition, a married couple is required to have both of these properties as well, which means artificial birth control creates illicit sex because it renders the act neither unitive nor procreative. Therefore their sexcapades are not licit in the eyes of the Church and if they want to fix it, they have to go off artificial birth control.
4. so much does the Church protect the unitive properties that it also forbids in vitro fertilization…there is no unitive property, therefore this is not a licit act in the eyes of the Church.

Gay people are not the only ones called to not have illicit and immoral sex. The same rules apply to everyone. It has to be unitive AND procreative. I hope that makes sense to you. The Church isn’t trying to be mean to anyone. Those are their rules and those are why they are the rules.

Maybe someone can add in something that I forgot to help you better understand the Church’s teachings regarding this matter…

Rence,

Thank you so much for your post, it is very informative. I will compare with Cathechism of Catholic Church, I believe your answer is from this source?

 

[Mamas_Boy]

Thanks for sharing this! I wish more like us Catholics would come out and not stay in shame about the Church teachings! We need to be humble but proud :ehh:

Thank you. Yes I agree and pray that more Catholics (myself included) pick up their cross and proclaim the love of God. Humility is not doormat hood. You cannot please 100% of the people 100% of the time and you will step on toes. Our Lord was humility itself and even He stepped on a few toes.

Wow, in a way, it seems your homosexual brothers are motivating you to become a better Catholic… by example. It’s great that you took it upon yourself.

Yes in a way they do motivate me to be a better Catholic because I love them and want them to see the beauty and love contained in the Catholic faith: a love that surpasses all love for it is Christ Himself who is Love Itself! We cannot say that we truly love someone if our love is contrary to God’s will. As Christ shows us true love is selfless and sacrificial and not selfish.
FreeSpirit1;8287034:

I hope you have the time and conviction for regular prayer, because with God all things are possible.

I struggle so much with prayer. Not because I do not love it or do not understand its benefits but rather there is always a battle that wages inside me where one side fights to pray and the other tries to keep me from it. I’m constantly fighting. :knight2:

Have you looked into the Church’s teachings and other serious sources about SSA (same sex attraction: I learned that from this thread!). Did any help? Do share!

I have read the Church’s position and have read some info on SSA but I’m no expert on the matter. I look at homosexuals in the same way I view heterosexuals that suffer from sins of impurity since in the end that’s what they are: humans that suffer from sins of impurity. I myself suffer from Lust Addiction and I know what it’s like to be attracted to things which are forbidden by God’s will and this has allowed me to see the matter in a clearer light. Whether you’re heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, transsexual or whatever, the problem is always the same and that’s misplaced love.

In my life I have come to see that happiness motivates all our actions: it’s what drives our choices. Even when we are forced to make a choice we pick what we pick because we believe we will be happier with the outcome. In our pursuit of happiness we look towards things which are finite to satisfy our want of happiness but we rarely take into account that our capacity for happiness is infinite. No person, place or material thing will be able to completely satisfy our want for happiness and so we continuously jump from one thing to another searching for this infinite source of happiness amongst the finite things of life, but that’s the problem isn’t it? We attach too much love to things that we perceive will fill this void of happiness but in the end they don’t. If people and material things sustained our need for happiness there would be no unhappy rich people and no unhappy couples. We ignore the obvious fact that we are not looking for happiness amongst that which can sustain our infinite capacity to be happy and that we are not putting all of our love towrads that which can sustain our happiness: God. And so this is what all sin is, its misplaced love and all sinners (myself included) regardless of sexuality are those who have misplace their love and who need to turn to God.

I guess you could say that I see myself in my homosexual brothers. I see the same type of struggles, the same desire to be happy and the same desire to find love and be loved and I know if they see in me a true happiness and peace that only God could give then they will abandon their ways like I have abandoned mine to embrace Him with all my heart.

God is great my friend and Love conquers all!

God Bless
Please pray for me.

 

[babylonsfalling]

Please help me answer in a sensitive, credible manner objections to Church teachings about homosexuality.

As I watch ‘Chaz’ on Oprah, the woman-turned-man (transgender), daughter of the famous Sony and Cher couple, it puts the spotlight back onto what I realized a while ago: public opinion (or what public media would have us think) is miles away from Catholic teachings, regarding many points: all priests are pedophiles, women should be allowed to be ordained as priests, priest to be allowed to be married, etc…

The ‘all priests are pedophiles’ preconceptions I could handle. Time magazine ran an article in summer 2009 how unfounded and exaggerated this thinking is.

The “women should be allowed to be ordained to be priest” I can handle: it comes down to a question of power. Our Lord asks us to be servants, not power-hungry. Also, we are, when baptised, made “kings, prophets, and priests” (working on the bible reference). So women are already priests from baptism! I, as a woman, have no problem here. I just live my faith as best I can and as a ‘lay’ person, I have so much to learn and live by.

But homosexuality is different. These people are ‘born this way’, as Lady Gaga sings.

To anybody wondering, I personally have no homosexual inclinations. I usually will shy away from homosexuals, either male or female, because I want to avoid the issue, avoid the confrontation. I don’t have other answers than textbook Catechism of the Catholic Church, which maybe too cold, harsh answer when dealing such a delicate issue. I’m looking for answers on this issue with my friends and family who are heterosexual, but disagree with the Church’s teachings, having been won over by ‘public opinion’ shaped by media.

Perhaps some of you out there have the experience and have pointers to give, perhaps some of you have already struggled with close ones about this issue, and prayed through it… I would appreciate your wisdom.

Thanks,

Your sister in Christ.

I don’t believe they’re necessarily born that way…there’s lots of evidence out there that they’re molested that way as children, something which would obviously create sexual confusion. Is that an absolute across the board kind of thing, NO, but since lots of people don’t talk about molestation, we can assume the actual percentage is larger than what homosexuals admit too. There’s also evidence that homosexuality actually has a lot to do with a missing parent, or a very damaged relationship with a certain parent.

I still don’t refuse to believe that some homosexuals might in some way be born that way, I just doubt very seriously that MOST of them are born that way.

As for dealing with homosexuals, it might be enlightening to compare Catholic dealings with homosexuals to that of other churches, my experience is that the Catholic Church is more inclined to deal with homosexuality as any other sin, rather than obsessing on it as the :bigyikes:BIG SIN:bigyikes: as I’ve seen other churches do.

 

[speakttruth]

A lot of people are under the false impression that the Church discriminates against gay people. That is so not true. In fact, the Church discrimates against everybody equally

Seriously though, the rules that the Church imposes on gay people, they impose on all unmarried heterosexuals as well…and married couples too. The rules are all the same.

The Church recognizes homosexual orientation. I do not believe it’s a choice. I think they were “born this way”. Regardless of whether it is a choice, or not, the rules of the Church are the same. Their burden is to be celibate just like an unmarried priest or a nun…or a single lay person. And the same rules apply that call a married couple to be chaste in their marriage - which means only having licit sex. It is not a “sin” in the eyes of the Church to be gay. It is a sin to engage in immoral sexual behavior.

The Church teaches that sex is only moral if it has two required properties 1) unitive and 2) procreative. That’s what the Church teaches for ALL. There are no exceptions to the rules within the Church’s teachings regarding sex.

1. Gay couples cannot be unitive (the parts just don’t fit), nor can they be procreative (only a man and a woman can conceive). Therefore their sexcapades are not licit in the eyes of the Church. This teaching is not going to change and it’s not outdated. It, in fact, makes perfect sense.
2. Heterosexual unmarried couples have the procreative property, but not the unitive because they are not married in the eyes of the Church. Therefore their sexcapades are not licit in the eyes of the Church. This teaching is not going to change. It is not outdated, and like it or not, it makes perfect sense.
3. In addition, a married couple is required to have both of these properties as well, which means artificial birth control creates illicit sex because it renders the act neither unitive nor procreative. Therefore their sexcapades are not licit in the eyes of the Church and if they want to fix it, they have to go off artificial birth control.
4. so much does the Church protect the unitive properties that it also forbids in vitro fertilization…there is no unitive property, therefore this is not a licit act in the eyes of the Church.

Gay people are not the only ones called to not have illicit and immoral sex. The same rules apply to everyone. It has to be unitive AND procreative. I hope that makes sense to you. The Church isn’t trying to be mean to anyone. Those are their rules and those are why they are the rules.

Maybe someone can add in something that I forgot to help you better understand the Church’s teachings regarding this matter…

HI, You got everything pretty good except they are not born this way. The site www.couragerc.net
explains things very well. SSA same sex attraction is the disordered sexual preference, not the person. Gay is word that identifies a person that is in the lifestyle and it’s the enemies language. They made that word up purposely to make it sound more palatable for the public, so people would think it’s a happy thing, which it is anything but.