"Please St. Joseph, look around"- unbiblical?

[CleverUserName]

Praying “to” a saint is simply asking them to pray to God for you. Got that, am able to explain that, no problem.

They are not standing between you and God interceding, but praying with you, alongside you, so to speak. Got that, too.

But asking Saint Joseph to FIND something for you… that’s asking someone (besides God) in Heaven to perform a supernatural act for you.

** Can someone please provide scripture supporting this?
**

Please know that I have prayed that prayer, very recently, and with great success. I prayed it, even having this question about it. Let me explain why:

God Himself chose the Catholic Church for me.
When I first entered the Church as an inquirer I began studying about it, trying to resolve all of the anti-Catholic nonsense I’d been fed about it. I found that every single thing I brought up was supported by scripture.

Every.
Single.
Thing.

(I know that as Catholics, we don not rely upon scripture alone. Understood. But still, every bit of anti-Catholic rhetoric I’d personally heard could be resolved by pointing to scripture.)

Anyway I knew that this was indeed the church of Jesus Christ, and that I had FINALLY found a place that I could TRUST. That is; if my Church does it, I can trust it. That has been invaluable, a comfort beyond description for me.

So the Church says this prayer is ok, and so I trust that it is. It’s as simple as that. I no longer need to chase down an “answer” as to “why” it’s ok, etc etc.

But I’m asking here because I realize that I would not be able to defend this, if someone asked ME. I have been studying apologetics for some time now because I want to be able to defend my church, no matter what the objection.

Could someone please give me scripture supporting the act of asking a saint in Heaven to provide supernatural aid to them on earth?

Thanks in advance.

 

[DavidFilmer]

They are not standing between you and God interceding, but praying with you, alongside you, so to speak. Got that, too.

But asking Saint Joseph to FIND something for you…

They’re the same thing. The “only” thing a Saint can do (without some miraculous intervention by God) is to pray on your behalf.

Suppose your sister is a cashier at WalMart, and you also want to work there. You might go to your sister and say, “can you get me a job at WalMart?” That means the same as “can you help me get a job at WalMart” and your sister understands perfectly well what you are asking (that she put in a good word for you with the manager). You both understand that your sister cannot actually hire you. Later, you might tell someone, “my sister got me this job,” when what you are really saying is that your sister spoke on your behalf.

 

[Mumbles140]

First, I agree with David. By merely praying to a saint and asking them to do something for us should carry the understanding that this prayer is asking them to intercede for us regarding this cause. It’s also been shown miraculously that certain saints have, for lack of a better term, more effective intercessions in regards to certain causes than others - that is one of the ways we have patron saints.

Lastly, I am very happy to read about your journey in the faith, but there is a bit that concerns me: the idea that every single belief must be rooted in Scripture. And please, if I am wrong on this, I would love to know, because I am not quoting on any authoritative literature or teachings. However, my understanding has always been that Scripture is a tool of the Church, but Scripture itself does not constitute all teachings. And I understand that some teachings, while not explicit in Scripture, naturally follow from that (i.e. the Immaculate Conception), but I do not think being a Catholic means believing every teaching is rooted in Scripture. Rather, and I could be wrong, my thinking is that all teachings are rooted in Tradition, of which Scripture is a major tool and guide.

 

[philial]

Let’s not forget that the Church - both here on Earth & in Heaven - is the community of the Body of Christ. We are no longer distinct from Christ, but share in His sonship. And just as the glory of the Father is to be found in the Son, and the Father gains glory by the works of His Son, so too with the saints in Heaven. God likes us to ask Him to share His glory with the eternal ones, as it means we have a glimmer of understanding that Heaven is not just the Presence of God, but Humanity, in Christ, sharing the Presence of God!

This is our potential. It is our destiny. Praying to the saints is a foretaste of the communion of the faithful that will be eternal.

 

[travelann13]

Is it not St. Anthony we pray to to LOOK AROUND?

 

[Viola_Incognita]

Is it not St. Anthony we pray to to LOOK AROUND?

Yes, St. Anthony of Padua.

From the cheat-sheet from Saints for Dummies:

"St. Anthony of Padua is the patron saint for lost items. Catholics say this prayer to find them: “St. Anthony, please look around; something is lost and must be found.” "

St. Anthony’s feast day was just last week: June 13th.

 

[CleverUserName]

First, I agree with David. By merely praying to a saint and asking them to do something for us should carry the understanding that this prayer is asking them to intercede for us regarding this cause. It’s also been shown miraculously that certain saints have, for lack of a better term, more effective intercessions in regards to certain causes than others - that is one of the ways we have patron saints.

Lastly, I am very happy to read about your journey in the faith, but there is a bit that concerns me: the idea that every single belief must be rooted in Scripture. And please, if I am wrong on this, I would love to know, because I am not quoting on any authoritative literature or teachings. However, my understanding has always been that Scripture is a tool of the Church, but Scripture itself does not constitute all teachings. And I understand that some teachings, while not explicit in Scripture, naturally follow from that (i.e. the Immaculate Conception), but I do not think being a Catholic means believing every teaching is rooted in Scripture. Rather, and I could be wrong, my thinking is that all teachings are rooted in Tradition, of which Scripture is a major tool and guide.

I will just quote myself: “(I know that as Catholics, we don not rely upon scripture alone. Understood. But still, every bit of anti-Catholic rhetoric I’d personally heard could be resolved by pointing to scripture.)”

 

[CleverUserName]

They’re the same thing. The “only” thing a Saint can do (without some miraculous intervention by God) is to pray on your behalf.

Suppose your sister is a cashier at WalMart, and you also want to work there. You might go to your sister and say, “can you get me a job at WalMart?” That means the same as “can you help me get a job at WalMart” and your sister understands perfectly well what you are asking (that she put in a good word for you with the manager). You both understand that your sister cannot actually hire you. Later, you might tell someone, “my sister got me this job,” when what you are really saying is that your sister spoke on your behalf.

Thank you, but when we ask the saints for prayer, we are doing exactly that. Blessed Mary, pray for us… Saint Pio, pray for us…

In this particular case we are asking “Something’s lost and can’t be found, please Saint Anthony** LOOK AROUND**”. It is very specific that we are asking a Saint in Heaven to look around our house and find a lost item for us. A simple Google search will lead you to many Catholic testimonies “St. Anthony found this for me”, etc. Not “Saint Anthony asked God to find this for me”.

 

[CleverUserName]

Let’s not forget that the Church - both here on Earth & in Heaven - is the community of the Body of Christ. We are no longer distinct from Christ, but share in His sonship. And just as the glory of the Father is to be found in the Son, and the Father gains glory by the works of His Son, so too with the saints in Heaven. God likes us to ask Him to share His glory with the eternal ones, as it means we have a glimmer of understanding that Heaven is not just the Presence of God, but Humanity, in Christ, sharing the Presence of God!

This is our potential. It is our destiny. Praying to the saints is a foretaste of the communion of the faithful that will be eternal.

Like I said, I do understand praying to saints. In this case, we are asking a saint in heaven to do something supernatural for us here on earth. Are you saying that since we are no longer “distinct from Christ” and that we are sharing his glory with “the eternal ones” that it is ok to ask them to find object for us here on earth? I am really trying to understand.

 

[CleverUserName]

Is it not St. Anthony we pray to to LOOK AROUND?

Exactly. It’s not “Saint Anthony, pray for me that I may find my lost item”. We are asking him specifically to look around and find our lost item.

 

[Viola_Incognita]

For a biblical reference, perhaps the cure of Naaman’s leprosy in 2 Kings 5?

Naaman appeals to Elisha for a cure – for a miracle. Naaman was looking for something supernatural.

 

[CleverUserName]

For a biblical reference, perhaps the cure of Naaman’s leprosy in 2 Kings 5?

Naaman appeals to Elisha for a cure – for a miracle. Naaman was looking for something supernatural.

Thank you!!!

I am going to look that up right now!

 

[Viola_Incognita]

Exactly. It’s not “Saint Anthony, pray for me that I may find my lost item”. We are asking him specifically to look around and find our lost item.

The St. Anthony “look around” prayer is a cute little poem that’s easy to remember. I wouldn’t look at it as being technically accurate. I’d never heard of it before. When I ask St. Anthony to help me, I just talk to him.

I think the format for giving thanks to a saint may come from a tradition for raising a person to sainthood or promoting devotion to them.

 

[Neofight]

Praying “to” a saint is simply asking them to pray to God for you. Got that, am able to explain that, no problem.

They are not standing between you and God interceding, but praying with you, alongside you, so to speak. Got that, too.

But asking Saint Joseph to FIND something for you… that’s asking someone (besides God) in Heaven to perform a supernatural act for you.

** Can someone please provide scripture supporting this?
**

Please know that I have prayed that prayer, very recently, and with great success. I prayed it, even having this question about it. Let me explain why:

God Himself chose the Catholic Church for me.
When I first entered the Church as an inquirer I began studying about it, trying to resolve all of the anti-Catholic nonsense I’d been fed about it. I found that every single thing I brought up was supported by scripture.

Every.
Single.
Thing.

(I know that as Catholics, we don not rely upon scripture alone. Understood. But still, every bit of anti-Catholic rhetoric I’d personally heard could be resolved by pointing to scripture.)

Anyway I knew that this was indeed the church of Jesus Christ, and that I had FINALLY found a place that I could TRUST. That is; if my Church does it, I can trust it. That has been invaluable, a comfort beyond description for me.

So the Church says this prayer is ok, and so I trust that it is. It’s as simple as that. I no longer need to chase down an “answer” as to “why” it’s ok, etc etc.

But I’m asking here because I realize that I would not be able to defend this, if someone asked ME. I have been studying apologetics for some time now because I want to be able to defend my church, no matter what the objection.

Could someone please give me scripture supporting the act of asking a saint in Heaven to provide supernatural aid to them on earth?

Thanks in advance.

While much of what we believe as Catholics can be found directly in scripture, there are plenty of things you are bound to find that cannot be directly traced to the Bible.

But, that’s okay. That fact is one of the major differences between us and many protestant faiths - sola scriptura.

Catholics believe not only in what is found in scripture, but by Tradition (capital T).

The Church had a vibrant life before the New Testament was penned. The things that we believe that go back to the days before the New Testament are the Tradition I spoke of.

Not every tennant of our faith made it into the gospel. To validate this contention read the very last verse in the Gospel of St. John, that essentially says, Not everything that Christ did (or other significant events concerning Christ or his church) are recorded in the gospels (or even epistles or letters of the NT), because no book is large enough to possibly contain all that information.

As the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen commented, “The Church was not created for the Gospel, the Gospel was created for the Church”; therefore the many Traditions that do not appear in scripture are still valid.

Peace to all

 

[CleverUserName]

Viola Incognita I just read the passage you suggested and thank you very much. I do find it extremely relevant in that a prophet does something “supernatural” here on earth. He even goes on to say that his spirit was with them.

Here it is for those reading: biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Kings+5&version=NIV

This reminds me now also of my beloved Padre Pio and stories of bilocation… if he could do that on earth, it stands to reason that he could also do so from Heaven…

You’ve got me thinking. Thank you very very very very much!

 

[CleverUserName]

While much of what we believe as Catholics can be found directly in scripture, there are plenty of things you are bound to find that cannot be directly traced to the Bible.

But, that’s okay. That fact is one of the major differences between us and many protestant faiths - sola scriptura.

Catholics believe not only in what is found in scripture, but by Tradition (capital T).

The Church had a vibrant life before the New Testament was penned. The things that we believe that go back to the days before the New Testament are the Tradition I spoke of.

Not every tennant of our faith made it into the gospel. To validate this contention read the very last verse in the Gospel of St. John, that essentially says, Not everything that Christ did (or other significant events concerning Christ or his church) are recorded in the gospels (or even epistles or letters of the NT), because no book is large enough to possibly contain all that information.

As the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen commented, “The Church was not created for the Gospel, the Gospel was created for the Church”; therefore the many Traditions that do not appear in scripture are still valid.

Peace to all

Slapping forehead

AS I SAID IN MY ORIGINAL POST THAT YOU QUOTED:

“”(I know that as Catholics, we don not rely upon scripture alone. Understood. But still, every bit of anti-Catholic rhetoric I’d personally heard could be resolved by pointing to scripture.)""

 

[Todd_Easton]

There are not many examples in Sacred Scripture of the righteous dead working miracles but there are a couple: Samuel (1 Samuel 28:19; Sirach 46:20) and Elisha (2 Kings 13:21; Sirach 48:14.)

If the righteous dead can work miracles, how can we be faulted for asking them for such miracles? If God has given them the gift of working miracles, how can we be faulted for asking them to exercise their God-given gift?

 

[CleverUserName]

Ok folks, I guess i need to reiterate what I said in my original post: I know that we do not believe in Scripture alone. I repeat: I know that we do not believe in Scripture alone.

But just for the record, Viola incognita did, in fact, provide scripture to support the practice of using that prayer. Exactly what I was asking for. I am grateful to her for that.

I was simply stating in my original post that in my personal experience, every time I’ve come up against an objection, I HAVE been able to provide scripture to support a Catholic practice. That’s my personal experience. It was my experience too when I was the one posing the objections and concerns. This thread has been no exception.

Blessings and gratitude to all who tried to help.

 

[CleverUserName]

There are not many examples in Sacred Scripture of the righteous dead working miracles but there are a couple: Samuel (1 Samuel 28:19; Sirach 46:20) and Elisha (2 Kings 13:21; Sirach 48:14.)

If the righteous dead can work miracles, how can we be faulted for asking them for such miracles? If God has given them the gift of working miracles, how can we be faulted for asking them to exercise their God-given gift?

Thank you, Todd. That is precisely what I was asking for. I am hugely appreciative. Thank you very much.

 

[Wildkit]

How many things does one believe that are not specifically in Scripture? I sense you answered your own question.

I go on as to ask why do all these events, miracles only happen in this one Church! Is God trying to tell me something?