Pledge of allegiance to the Vatican

[Saint_Sebastian]

I am proposing a pledge of allegiance to the Vatican and have worked in collaboration with Father Jim to develop this final pledge. I am posting the pledge here to solicit opinions from faithful Catholic as well as non Catholic to determine if this would be for you a valuable means to support Pope Benedict XVI in his call to fidelity all Americans who desire moral standards to be improved in this nation.

The complete pledge would read:
In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen
(here place your hand over your heart)
“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Vatican and to the Magisterium for which it stands; One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church under the Cross of Christ, indivisible, with Charity, Justice and Divine Mercy for all through the reception and living of our Sacramental way of life.”

What do you think about these suggestions?
God bless,
Fr. Jim

 

[NHInsider]

I would be really uncomfortable pledging allegiance to the Vatican flag - that would raise the whole temporal authority thing that was such an issue when John Kennedy ran for President. Since the time of St. Paul it has been Christian doctrine that we can be good citizens of our earthly states while recognizing that our true home is in God’s Kingdom. Most of us, however, are not citizens of the Vatican.

It seems like what you’re really looking for is a reaffirmation of our baptismal vows, or perhaps a lay version of the Ignatius vow of obedience ("I further promise a special obedience to the Sovereign Pontiff in regard to the missions ")?

 

[Saint_Sebastian]

I would be really uncomfortable pledging allegiance to the Vatican flag - that would raise the whole temporal authority thing that was such an issue when John Kennedy ran for President. Since the time of St. Paul it has been Christian doctrine that we can be good citizens of our earthly states while recognizing that our true home is in God’s Kingdom. Most of us, however, are not citizens of the Vatican.

It seems like what you’re really looking for is a reaffirmation of our baptismal vows, or perhaps a lay version of the Ignatius vow of obedience ("I further promise a special obedience to the Sovereign Pontiff in regard to the missions ")?

The Vatican is not considered a political state rather it is entirely religious so there is no conflict of dual citizenship. The pledge is to state allegiance to a way of life in Christ and to affirm fidelity to the Magisterium, particularly the Pope. It is necessary as a means to alleviate secularism and to answer the Pope’s call to fidelity. It was written by Catholic Priest. Nearly all Catholic Church in America post both the flag of the USA on one side of the altar and the flag of the Vatican on the other side of the altar.

 

[Lycorth]

I like the idea, but I can see lots of static coming your way, especially from those who don’t understand that this isn’t about dual citizenship but spiritual obligations.

Even so, static or not, I think you should stick to it

 

[Pons]

It just seems like more fuel on the fire for anti-Catholics to exploit. Aren’t the Creeds enough?

 

[NHInsider]

The Vatican is not considered a political state rather it is entirely religious so there is no conflict of dual citizenship.

This is simply inaccurate. Vatican City is a sovereign state of which the Pope is the supreme ruler, although on a day-to-day basis his authority is exercised by his Prime Minister: vatican.va/vatican_city_state/index.htm (sorry that the laws are only available in Portuegues, Italian and German but most people with a hint of Latin can read the first article).

And a good thing, too, otherwise it would be subject to the vagaries of Italian politics.

The pledge is to state allegiance to a way of life in Christ and to affirm fidelity to the Magisterium, particularly the Pope.

That is in fact what our baptismal vows state.

It is necessary as a means to alleviate secularism and to answer the Pope’s call to fidelity. It was written by Catholic Priest.

You asked for our opinions. In my opinion, it’s a bad idea.

Nearly all Catholic Church in America post both the flag of the USA on one side of the altar and the flag of the Vatican on the other side of the altar.

Non-sequitor.

 

[Lycorth]

Perhaps no pledge to the Vatican is required but rather one towards our universal Faith?

 

[osddso]

i like to see a priest being “balls-on” catholic. ready to pledge himself to God, without all that P.C. horse s***. and thats me being real. im speaking in terms i would use daily (im a construction worker, what did you expect?) not because im trying to be tough, but because you are being straight with your faith, and i respect that. so rather than censoring myself on here for others, i am giving you the respect of telling you how i really truly feel.

the truth is. you have to remember that the Vatican was not Gods chosen people. it was Israel. I think if there was a pledge of allegiance to the Vatican, it would make it would take away from the fact that Jesus had so much mercy and compassion for the gentiles. it would make it look like Gods plan was strictly for the Vatican, and gives off a very very very very “either your with the Vatican or against Jesus” feel.

 

[gamewell45]

I am proposing a pledge of allegiance to the Vatican and have worked in collaboration with Father Jim to develop this final pledge. I am posting the pledge here to solicit opinions from faithful Catholic as well as non Catholic to determine if this would be for you a valuable means to support Pope Benedict XVI in his call to fidelity all Americans who desire moral standards to be improved in this nation.

The complete pledge would read:
In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen
(here place your hand over your heart)
“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Vatican and to the Magisterium for which it stands; One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church under the Cross of Christ, indivisible, with Charity, Justice and Divine Mercy for all through the reception and living of our Sacramental way of life.”

What do you think about these suggestions?
God bless,
Fr. Jim

I’d have issue with this; I already say one pledge to my country. I’d feel very uncomfortable pledging to another flag.

Since I’m not Roman Catholic, I couldn’t pledge to follow the Catholic Sacremental way of life.

Something more generic would be in order.

A most noble effort, but i think its back to the drawing board Fr. Jim.

 

[HisWill777]

I am proposing a pledge of allegiance to the Vatican and have worked in collaboration with Father Jim to develop this final pledge. I am posting the pledge here to solicit opinions from faithful Catholic as well as non Catholic to determine if this would be for you a valuable means to support Pope Benedict XVI in his call to fidelity all Americans who desire moral standards to be improved in this nation.

The complete pledge would read:
In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen
(here place your hand over your heart)
“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Vatican and to the Magisterium for which it stands; One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church under the Cross of Christ, indivisible, with Charity, Justice and Divine Mercy for all through the reception and living of our Sacramental way of life.”

What do you think about these suggestions?
God bless,
Fr. Jim

While I totally agree with your intentions and would support the Pope in this effort, I don’t think I would support this type of Pledge. Why limit the Pledge to the Church, Jesus didn’t? Any improvement in moral standards would be a herculean effort. All who profess faith in Jesus Christ and follow in His ways would be a powerful force, if you are really, really serious about changing things. Our divided efforts aren’t doing much good at the moment.

 

[Saint_Sebastian]

I’d have issue with this; I already say one pledge to my country. I’d feel very uncomfortable pledging to another flag.

Since I’m not Roman Catholic, I couldn’t pledge to follow the Catholic Sacremental way of life.

Something more generic would be in order.

A most noble effort, but i think its back to the drawing board Fr. Jim.

Every Catholic home in the USA is considered the domestic church and so an extension of the parish church and the parish church is extension of the diocese and the diocese is an extension of the vatican and so that is why all faithful Catholic share citizenship with the vatican. VI. THE DOMESTIC CHURCH

1655 Christ chose to be born and grow up in the bosom of the holy family of Joseph and Mary. The Church is nothing other than “the family of God.” From the beginning, the core of the Church was often constituted by those who had become believers "together with all [their] household."166 When they were converted, they desired that “their whole household” should also be saved.167 These families who became believers were islands of Christian life in an unbelieving world.

1656 In our own time, in a world often alien and even hostile to faith, believing families are of primary importance as centers of living, radiant faith. For this reason the Second Vatican Council, using an ancient expression, calls the family the Ecclesia domestica.168 It is in the bosom of the family that parents are "by word and example . . . the first heralds of the faith with regard to their children. They should encourage them in the vocation which is proper to each child, fostering with special care any religious vocation."169

1657 It is here that the father of the family, the mother, children, and all members of the family exercise the priesthood of the baptized in a privileged way "by the reception of the sacraments, prayer and thanksgiving, the witness of a holy life, and self-denial and active charity."170 Thus the home is the first school of Christian life and "a school for human enrichment."171 Here one learns endurance and the joy of work, fraternal love, generous - even repeated - forgiveness, and above all divine worship in prayer and the offering of one’s life.

1658 We must also remember the great number of single persons who, because of the particular circumstances in which they have to live - often not of their choosing - are especially close to Jesus’ heart and therefore deserve the special affection and active solicitude of the Church, especially of pastors. Many remain without a human family often due to conditions of poverty. Some live their situation in the spirit of the Beatitudes, serving God and neighbor in exemplary fashion. The doors of homes, the “domestic churches,” and of the great family which is the Church must be open to all of them. "No one is without a family in this world: the Church is a home and family for everyone, especially those who ‘labor and are heavy laden.’"172

 

[Saint_Sebastian]

This is simply inaccurate. Vatican City is a sovereign state of which the Pope is the supreme ruler, although on a day-to-day basis his authority is exercised by his Prime Minister: vatican.va/vatican_city_state/index.htm (sorry that the laws are only available in Portuegues, Italian and German but most people with a hint of Latin can read the first article).

Non-sequitor.

NHInsider, No political leader has ever received the Pope nor has any political leader consulted the Pope as a political advisor. The Pope has represented the moral teaching of Christ to world leaders as a means to inspire charity and justice to social systems. The Vatican does not promote a political agenda nor does it possess one. The mission of the Vatican creates an Ambassadorship which represents Christ. There is no political structure to the Vatican nor does it contain a constitution or militia that is ordered to establish a national society in and of itself. It’s mission is to be a source of authority for the entire Catholic Church worldwide in every country and the primary source of that authority is the Pope. Every Catholic in every nation is called to fidelity with the Magisterium and the seat of the Magisterium is the Holy See and the Pope in the Vatican.

Vatican City State was founded following the signing of the Lateran Pacts between the Holy See and Italy on February 11th 1929. These were ratified on June 7th 1929. Its nature as a sovereign State distinct from the Holy See is universally recognized under international law.
The Catholic Church carries out its mission of announcing the truth of the Gospel for the salvation of all humanity and in the service of peace and justice in favour of all peoples, both through the various specific and local Churches spread throughout the world, as well as through its central government. This is made up of the Pope and the Departments that assist him in carrying out his responsibilities towards the universal Church (identified as the Apostolic See or Holy See). The Pope lives in Vatican City where several of the aforementioned Departments are to be found. Vatican City State has the singular characteristic of being an instrument of the independence of the Holy See, and of the Catholic Church, from any earthly power. In a way, it is a sign of the Church’s supernatural character insofar as the structures of Vatican City are reduced to the minimum necessary to guarantee its functions.

 

[Saint_Sebastian]

i like to see a priest being “balls-on” catholic. ready to pledge himself to God, without all that P.C. horse s***. and thats me being real. im speaking in terms i would use daily (im a construction worker, what did you expect?) not because im trying to be tough, but because you are being straight with your faith, and i respect that. so rather than censoring myself on here for others, i am giving you the respect of telling you how i really truly feel.

the truth is. you have to remember that the Vatican was not Gods chosen people. it was Israel. I think if there was a pledge of allegiance to the Vatican, it would make it would take away from the fact that Jesus had so much mercy and compassion for the gentiles. it would make it look like Gods plan was strictly for the Vatican, and gives off a very very very very “either your with the Vatican or against Jesus” feel.

Osddso, I also am a construction worker and a Roman Catholic and I collaborated with Father Jim to write the pledge. God’s chosen people were the Jews however the faithful were grafted onto the vine to shame the Jews who rejected Christ. The Jews who rejected Christ are no longer the chosen, rather the elect are those who profess Christ and are faithful to Christ’s Vicar. The Pope is the successor of Peter, the “rock” upon which Christ built his Church. Christ was a construction worker also and knew how to build a house that would last for all generations and that house is the Catholic Church whose Magisterium and the Pope reside in the Vatican in Rome.

 

[Saint_Sebastian]

I like the idea, but I can see lots of static coming your way, especially from those who don’t understand that this isn’t about dual citizenship but spiritual obligations.

Even so, static or not, I think you should stick to it

Lycorth, Thank you. I plan on sticking with it in fact already submitted the pledge to my Archbishop for his endorsement so that I can promote the pledge throughout our Diocese and hopefully beyond that across the face of the nation of the USA.

 

[Saint_Sebastian]

I’d have issue with this; I already say one pledge to my country. I’d feel very uncomfortable pledging to another flag.

Since I’m not Roman Catholic, I couldn’t pledge to follow the Catholic Sacremental way of life.

Something more generic would be in order.

A most noble effort, but i think its back to the drawing board Fr. Jim.

Gamewell, The pledge is for Catholic only, the Church would not endorse a generic pledge to satisfy the needs of non Catholic as this pledge requires the call to fidelity of Catholic Doctrine and allegiance to our Pope Benedict XVI. Anything less than that would mute the pledge and make it void of meaning. The pledge is to strengthen the faith of the Catholic faithful and so directing it at non Catholic would only lose it’s appeal.
Father Jim is absolutely affirmative that the pledge will stand as is and not rewritten to satisfy non-believers or even protestant reformers. Father Jim and I have already moved forward with the pledge to the next level of endorsement with the Archbishop of our Diocese and a copy was already sent to the Vatican.

 

[Saint_Sebastian]

It just seems like more fuel on the fire for anti-Catholics to exploit. Aren’t the Creeds enough?

Pons, No the Creed is not enough as the fidelity to the Magisterium is what the pledge directs all Ambassadors of Christ to receive direction from. All faithful Catholic are Ambassadors of Christ and as such must report to the Supreme Ambassador whom is Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[Saint_Sebastian]

Most of us, however, are not citizens of the Vatican.

NHInsider, The Pope is Supreme Ambassador of Christ and all faithful Catholic are also Ambassadors of Christ. No matter where we are in the world, all Ambassadors of Christ are under the direction of the Supreme Ambassador and so even though many of us do not live at the Vatican, we owe fidelity and allegiance to the Vatican as our authoritative residence of Doctrine and the Source and Summit of our unity in the Body and Blood of Christ.

 

[chevalier]

The number of actual citizens of the Vatican doesn’t probably exceed 1000.

The Catholic faith should not be confused with political allegiance to the Vatican State, which is a state over which the Holy See (which is the true subject of international law) has governance and sovereignty.

Yes, there’s a special place in the heart of a Catholic for the Vatican flag, possibly the Vatican postal stamps and coinage, and it’s hard to imagine wanting to be at odds with the Vatican politically (not like the Vatican would ever has any political business inconsistent with the business of the Holy See and that business is basically not temporal politics but promotion of Christianity *even *in temporal politics, but it’s not the same as e.g. industrial or commercial interests of Vatican City).

 

[Saint_Sebastian]

While I totally agree with your intentions and would support the Pope in this effort, I don’t think I would support this type of Pledge. Why limit the Pledge to the Church, Jesus didn’t? Any improvement in moral standards would be a herculean effort. All who profess faith in Jesus Christ and follow in His ways would be a powerful force, if you are really, really serious about changing things. Our divided efforts aren’t doing much good at the moment.

Dear HisWill, The pledge makes clear in it’s definition “One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church under the Cross of Christ” for a most excellent reason; it was the will of Christ that there be only one Church. I can refer you to the Catholic Doctrine on Ecumenism
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html which addresses the problem of scandal and splintering of Doctrines which began with Father Martin Luther of Germany several centuries ago. From the beginning Christ established His Church on Saint Peter and through the succession of Pope’s until now in Pope Benedict XVI. It is not only apparent that the most effective form of unity would be for everyone in the world to make this pledge, although it is most apparent that non-Catholic could not possibly make this pledge without renouncing their current alliance with whatever form of worship is being practiced. The pledge is a call to all Catholic to promise and remain in allegiance with the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic faith. If that could become a reality, it would be enough for Christ.

 

[Viki63]

I have to agree with gamewell. The pledge of allegiance is an American sign.
Our baptismal vows should suffice to remind us where our loyalties lie, and we repeat them several times throughout the year. There is no need to pledge allegiance to a foreign power, even though the Holy Father is our spiritual head.
This will only become a divisive force between Catholics, and we have enough division as it is.