Pleg of allegiance

[GaryTaylor]

Where is this universal church I want to see it. There are saints and sinners…PERIOD. And we have become a country of the later. Why do you suppose 1/4 of the world incarcerated are here in the USA? Such nonsense of statements, which thought out with any degree of sense are quickly dismissed. The Universal church where you can be ordained TODAY for what 15-20 bucks, no training or education and preform the Sacrements of the Church? Right, thats foolish thinking. Its an illusion in your mind. You should send CAF the $20 bucks and we will correct that illusion quickly for you.

The D of I was based on Catholic teaching and thats a fact. For Thomas Jefferson had a copy of Fillmores work in his private library with all of St Bellarmines quotes underlined. Which then appeared and formed the Declaration. And that silly jingle one calls the Pledge is based on the Declaration. Which of course this country is based on and that my friends is Catholic Teaching.

The words God do not appear everywhere by CHANCE or LUCK. They were placed there for a reason. They are warnings and reminders and through this silly jingle its instilled in the mind.

And its not a question of being right, the proof is in the pudding. However, if we continue to systematically walk away from our own roots, however silly they may be, then the sublime thinking will favor evil. Which as we see today is happening in the USA. Doe’s it look like we are on the right path? Does anyone here know for FACT what the right path is? Then explain it CLEARLY so we all can all understand. I’ll be waiting to hear this! Not the strident clamor of NOISE which is evils game. Not the confused thinking about Hitler, a Right being Violated, or how one “thinks” the pledge doesn’t apply but can’t be proven, or how one pays tax, so somehow they “think” they should not have to do what? You pay tax for the RIGHT to live here FREE. NOISE is what that is, and it cause’s CONFUSION. And that is what we are living in, a diabolical disorientation through confusion. Why do suppose that feeling exists for so many that somethings not RIGHT, something is WRONG, somethings going to happen. It can’t be correctly identified because it is simply CONFUSION.

SYSTEMATIC DESTRUCTION of a country by evil through moral relativism, atheism, secularism. How far would you like to travel down this path? What, you won’t be happy till you are in your own back yard literally fighting for what your forefather’s correctly built, and you and your familys life. “Were not under attack today” You confuse a state of war, as time when when are “in war” but not being under attack? Oh that is some wisdom to behold. . Fact is we have our hands full, in not one but THREE countrys. And getting ready to go to the forth, google that. In a NY minute this could be world war. Overnight there could be marshall law, the draft and the war machine being built. You would have to be a complete moron to be walking around today believing “everything is alright” We are so far from alright that we are almost on the otherside of no tommorrow. Matter of fact if you look close you will see are preparing for world war. Real war doesn’t deplete ecomomy it builds it. And that is a fact which can be proven by history.

The pledge is not a fashion, and it will do you not harm, nor is it a negative. Its an affirmation of the foundation of what is a FREE country through GODS WILL. And if we lose God, we lose this country. For Government is a right given by God, and taken away by God and so is YOUR FREEDOM. And you lose your freedom by losing God.

Now if you would like to debate their is no God nor doe’s this country need God, thus doesn’t need the pledge or currency with God on it or whatever. Thats understood, but it in no way distracts from the truth of the foundation of this country. Nor the fact that seperation of church and state is a total misconception and a fairy tale. For the problem then lies in the correct understanding of Government/Justice which is this country’s structured concept, and also taken from St. Bellarmine’s teaching. How do you “think” a goverment should be ran? Do you think this is running correctly now? Do you actually think there’s a miracle workers coming along after Obama to correct this? Another misconception. You’ll believe in that fairy tale, but you won’t believe in Gods miracle. There is no miracle workers coming along. God is the miracle worker. Venerate Him correctly and the country will grow, venerate anything else and it will cease to exist.

The fact the US has had some very good moral leaders doesn’t distract that there is no check and balance system without church. Then our government becomes wrongly implimented. Why do you suppose the wealthy pay less taxe’s than the working middle class? How was the manufacturing in this country lost? How about the currency? Import/Export? Taxe’s incorrectly implimented, oh it just goes; on and on.

The lack of depth of thinking is something, however, its an immunity bought on by the constant shock of what has happened, to the point where it accepted as “normal”.

You are walking around traumatized and don’t even know it, and if you continue you will walk right to the end of the night. The fact we have a very good military doesn’t make them infallible. There is NO-PLAN once no-quarter war begins. Its offense/defense and the best defense is a great offense, and thats how we play the game of war here. In case you military experts haven’t noticed. There is no B-Plan, understand this clearly. The B-Plan is Officials, leaders, and those who can, RUN, HIDE and become INVISABLE. And that leaves all else to die or go into bondage. And you will become the last great Nation that existed. Thats the B-Plan.

As you believe, so it will be.

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well the misconception of policing the world doesn’t help either. If in fact this is what it is. It could be also protecting interest, which also plays into the strategy of overall full blown war from where they are. They are already there established. No-one else is established anywhere. There’s a concern level also about helping other’s, though I;m convinced on this, had that be the case Cuba would have been freed long ago. They could probly run through that in 2-mths.

However from an economic point of view its a drain on the country which cannot continue. Basically were paying for them to be at war, thats where your Federal tax dollar is going.

 

[AdesteFideles]

The D of I was based on Catholic teaching and thats a fact. For Thomas Jefferson had a copy of Fillmores work in his private library with all of St Bellarmines quotes underlined. Which then appeared and formed the Declaration. And that silly jingle one calls the Pledge is based on the Declaration. Which of course this country is based on and that my friends is Catholic Teaching.

With the greatest of respect, what you are submitting is an exaggeration and complete hyperbole.

From this source, we can find the following quote, which quite succinctly sums up the facts of all of this.

Bellarmine’s bad reputation in the English-speaking world is largely due to his polemical exchanges with King James I, undertaken at the direction of Paul V (1605-1621). Against the King of England, Bellarmine defended his doctrine of the pope’s “indirect power,” and attacked the idea that kings rule with absolute power by divine right. Bellarmine held that civil power comes to the ruler not directly from God but through the people, who may set up any kind of regime that serves the common good. Regalists such as William Barclay and Robert Filmer, responding to Bellarmine, characterized him as the ablest defender of the doctrine they were opposing. John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison seem to have been acquainted with Bellarmine, especially through the writings of his adversaries. It has been plausibly argued that in this way Bellarmine exercised an indirect influence upon the American system of government.

All of that is quite a distance from stating: (1) that Jefferson was without question influenced by the writing of St. Bellarmine; (2) that Filmer’s Patriarcha was even read by Jefferson, although a copy of it was indeed found at Monticello; (3) that passages in that copy were underlined by Jefferson; and (4) that such underlined passages were then used to compose certain parts of the DOI.

The most that can be pointed out, as Father John Ranger did in Democracy and Bellarmine, is that certain ideas of St. Bellarmine are echoed in both the DOI and the Virginia Declaration of Rights; although plagiarism can without doubt be ruled out, as the language used to express the ideas is highly dissimilar.

Lastly, I have no idea how Bellamy’s original Pledge of Allegiance…

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

…can be said to be directly based on the DOI.

 

[Zooey]

While there is no “official” stance concerning the pledge, Friends typically do not recite it…and many of us…do not stand and place our hands over our hearts.

I will usually stand out of respect to those around me…but I do not place my hand over my heart nor do I recite the pledge…and depending on the situation I find myself…I may not stand if I feel “an opening” of the Spirit to not do so.

We are members of another Kingdom, who’s values are much different. “Pledging” my “allegience” to any earthly kingdom goes against my witness as a Friend. I am a good citizen of my country…“pledging” “allegience” to me does not speak to the fact that my word is enough…no pledge is needed.

This.

I also dont understand why conservatives love the pledge so much. Do they not know it was written by a socialist?

.

Yes, it was! And most people don’t know this…

Look, I am an American citizen, & I am proud & happy to be so, but pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth??
I prefer the attitude of the great Thomas J. [Stonewall] Jackson: He was in battle, & one of his men had been gravely injured, & was “shocky”, & shivering incontrollably. Jackson walked to the flag, removed it from its staff, & wrapped it around the man’s bleeding body to warm him as he passed from this life. When another man objected, Jackson snapped, “What are you loyal to? A square of cloth, or that man, who has shed his life’s blood today for the country it represents?”

 

[Legal_Eagle]

I don’t believe what I’m reading here.

Anyone who thinks the last Just War was World War II has not been paying attention.

Cardinal Ratzinger, After the 9/11 Attacks Interview with Vatican Radio. November 2001:
Q: Is there any such thing as a “just war”?
Cardinal Ratzinger: This is a major issue of concern. In the preparation of the Catechism, there were two problems: the death penalty and just war theory were the most debated. The debate has taken on new urgency given the response of the Americans. Or, another example: Poland, which defended itself against Hitler.

I’d say that we cannot ignore, in the great Christian tradition and in a world marked by sin, any evil aggression that threatens to destroy not only many values, many people, but the image of humanity itself.

In this case, defending oneself and others is a duty. Let’s say for example that a father who sees his family attacked is duty-bound to defend them in every way possible – even if that means using proportional violence.

Thus, the just war problem is defined according to these parameters:

1. Everything must be conscientiously considered, and every alternative explored if there is even just one possibility to save human life and values;
2. Only the most necessary means of defense should be used and human rights must always be respected; in such a war the enemy must be respected as a human being and all fundamental rights must be respected.

I think that the Christian tradition on this point has provided answers that must be updated on the basis of new methods of destruction and of new dangers. For example, there may be no way for a population to defend itself from an atomic bomb. So, these must be updated.

But I’d say that we cannot totally exclude the need, the moral need, to suitably defend people and values against unjust aggressors. …

Cardinal Ratzinger Says Unilateral Attack on Iraq Not Justified - Gives Personal Opinion; Favors Decision from U.N. Zenit News Service. Sept. 22, 2002.
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger does not believe that a unilateral military attack by the United States against Iraq would be morally justifiable, under the current circumstances.
According to the prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith – who acknowledged that political questions are not within his competence – “the United Nations is the [institution] that should make the final decision.”

“It is necessary that the community of nations makes the decision, not a particular power,” the cardinal said, after receiving the 2002 Trieste Liberal Award. His statements were published Saturday in the Italian newspaper Avvenire.

“The fact that the United Nations is seeking the way to avoid war, seems to me to demonstrate with enough evidence that the damage would be greater than the values one hopes to save,” the cardinal said.

He said that “the U.N. can be criticized” from several points of view, but “it is the instrument created after the war for the coordination – including moral – of politics.”

The “concept of a ‘preventive war’ does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church,” Cardinal Ratzinger noted.

“One cannot simply say that the catechism does not legitimize the war,” he continued. “But it is true that the catechism has developed a doctrine that, on one hand, does not exclude the fact that there are values and peoples that must be defended in some circumstances; on the other hand, it offers a very precise doctrine on the limits of these possibilities.”

Interview with Zenit.org May 2, 2003:
Q: Eminence, a topical question that in a certain sense is inherent to the Catechism: Does the Anglo-American war against Iraq fit the canons of a “just war”?
Cardinal Ratzinger: The Pope expressed his thought with great clarity, not only as his individual thought but as the thought of a man who is knowledgeable in the highest functions of the Catholic Church. Of course, he did not impose this position as doctrine of the Church but as the appeal of a conscience enlightened by faith.

The Holy Father’s judgment is also convincing from the rational point of view: There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a “just war.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

With the greatest of respect, what you are submitting is an exaggeration and complete hyperbole.

From this source, we can find the following quote, which quite succinctly sums up the facts of all of this.

All of that is quite a distance from stating: (1) that Jefferson was without question influenced by the writing of St. Bellarmine; (2) that Filmer’s Patriarcha was even read by Jefferson, although a copy of it was indeed found at Monticello; (3) that passages in that copy were underlined by Jefferson; and (4) that such underlined passages were then used to compose certain parts of the DOI.

The most that can be pointed out, as Father John Ranger did in Democracy and Bellarmine, is that certain ideas of St. Bellarmine are echoed in both the DOI and the Virginia Declaration of Rights; although plagiarism can without doubt be ruled out, as the language used to express the ideas is highly dissimilar.

Lastly, I have no idea how Bellamy’s original Pledge of Allegiance…

…can be said to be directly based on the DOI.

Are you even listening to yourself?

although a copy of it was indeed found at Monticello; (3) that passages in that copy were underlined by Jefferson; and (4) that such underlined passages were then used to compose certain parts of the DOI.

Right and then the passages mystically appreared in the D of I. Did you read the Saints work and compare it. The entire context is based on it.

Jefferson states. All men are created equal, Bellarmine states all men are equal …and on it goe’s. Nothing alike right?

Then to boot he used his concept to structure the Government also out of the Saints work. No you would just like to make believe… NOTHING HAPPENED:shrug:

Listen to your own words…

“although a copy of it was indeed found at Monticello; (3) that passages in that copy were underlined by Jefferson; and (4) that such underlined passages were then used to compose certain parts of the DOI.”

Never mind plagerism, he didn’t even mention the Saints name. You somethow think thats how this is how this should have worked?

Listen the truth is there for anyone who would like to read the Saints work. Thanks for the Help:thumbsup:

 

[jesuspsr]

I was reading this tread early this morning, I wanted to reply, but I had an early morning meeting to go to. So, Wow, I never thought people felt this way about our flag or our national anthem. You know the American Civil War, in that era people were very religious. And people of every religion fought in that war. They fought to preserve the union, our flag. It was an honor to be in the color corp. And many, many died carring our flag. Remember when Iran took our embassy. The Mexican/American Marine wrote on the wall, "Viva la Roja, Blanca y Azul, (Long Live the Red, White and Blue). 9/11 is approaching in a couple of days, you know what I remember the most, is seeing the Fire Fighters raising our Flag in the midst of that destruction. I still get goose bumps when I see that picture. For me, our flag is the greatest symbol for our freedom. Our national anthem when ever I hear it gives me goose bumps through my whole body . For me it’s the best anthem in the world. I sing it, and I sing it with national pride. And mind you I don’t sing, I can’t carry a tune. Maybe I should have just gone with what Voltaire said many years ago, “I may not like what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it”. So, I respect all your opinons with love. Like always, when I re-read this for mistakes, it absolutely makes no sense as to what I’m feeling or want to say. So, hopefully you can understand what I’m saying.

God bless

jesus g

 

[StrawberryJam]

How many thousands of viewers already saw this?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

Wiki is a terrible last resort for accurate information. But, really can one miss this?

 

[GaryTaylor]

How many thousands of viewers already saw this?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

Wiki is a terrible last resort for accurate information. But, really can one miss this?

And this relates to your thinking, as opposed to others, and what is reality…how?

“Wiki is a terrible last resort for accurate information” Right, I take note.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I was reading this tread early this morning, I wanted to reply, but I had an early morning meeting to go to. So, Wow, I never thought people felt this way about our flag or our national anthem. You know the American Civil War, in that era people were very religious. And people of every religion fought in that war. They fought to preserve the union, our flag. It was an honor to be in the color corp. And many, many died carring our flag. Remember when Iran took our embassy. The Mexican/American Marine wrote on the wall, "Viva la Roja, Blanca y Azul, (Long Live the Red, White and Blue). 9/11 is approaching in a couple of days, you know what I remember the most, is seeing the Fire Fighters raising our Flag in the midst of that destruction. I still get goose bumps when I see that picture. For me, our flag is the greatest symbol for our freedom. Our national anthem when ever I hear it gives me goose bumps through my whole body . For me it’s the best anthem in the world. I sing it, and I sing it with national pride. And mind you I don’t sing, I can’t carry a tune. Maybe I should have just gone with what Voltaire said many years ago, “I may not like what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it”. So, I respect all your opinons with love. Like always, when I re-read this for mistakes, it absolutely makes no sense as to what I’m feeling or want to say. So, hopefully you can understand what I’m saying.

God bless

jesus g

I hear you, and yes the NYC sight was similar to Iwo Jima in the Flag aspect. But geez, maybe thats hyperbole However, that same battle of attrition, is the one being fought in the minds throughout this country today. And those who salute indifference will apply this in the larger picture also. This I assure you of.

So then, is our country preserving the…one Nation “UNDER GOD” aspect today? What is indivisable in our country today? Isn’t this the dicotomy we are talking about?

The indifference, which has grow into rebellion through incorrect learned behavior thus belief, has reduced the significance and sanctity of life to NOTHING. Today the very fabric of life…the FAMILY has been so sacrificed by our laws, that this is what many childern are growing up to be brainwashed with. I can relate to this, however while I’ll be your friend I won’t accept the negative. For decade’s we have already walked down this path. Thus they are projecting this illusion once again with the Pledge being insignificant.

Have I blown and magnified the Pledge situation out of proportion? Of course, how would you see the larger picture otherwise?? How is it not relevant, since its directly related to the larger picture???

 

[C_the_K]

Wow did I open a can of worms. I thought it was a simple question.

 

[BVM_1221]

“Just think, if it were not for those who are willing to protect the flag, pledge allegiance to it, defend the weak and oppressed, the possibility that in the course of our history it could have come out that YOU could have been arrested and jailed for believing in God and our Lord Jesus Christ had history played out differently.

Reality check. I was in the US Navy 1963-1973, mostly to avoid being drafted into the Arny. In fact, most americans who have died in wars have done so under compulsion of the draft. It was a choice of “protecting the flag”, or a brutal prison sentence under brutal keepers determined to punish you.

This does not apply to the modern all-volunteer force, of course. But they ARE a minority.

 

[wmscott]

Did not know this was a Code Pink rally , I guess I am in the minority here when it comes to the way I think of things concerning America. When I look at the flag I do not see a piece of cloth, I see America and all that goes with it, good and bad. But this is just one man’s opinion.

P.S. All my service was all voluntary also

 

[runningdude]

“I find it silly to pledge my allegiance to a flag” & “I would prefer America the Beautiful” and puppy dogs and butter flies, and everything is all fuzzy and warm. Blah, blah, blah… I find your remarks of being silly to say the pledge offensive. I served under that glorious flag for twenty years and two wars. Do you think God was not there each and every day? God was at the forefront of every day I spent in conflict, God was there every day there was peace. To speak of the pledge of allegiance as being silly is being ignorant of what it really is. I guess the saying “For those who have fought for it, freedom has a special flavor the protected will never know.” is all to true.

Also the Star Spangled Banner is a lesson on the ultimate sacrifices of many that came before you so that you can sit in your cozy home and whine and moan about I don’t like this and I don’t like that and worship the way you want to without persecution. By your statements, you cheapen the memory of those who paid that ultimate sacrifice so that you have freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom to protest, right to a fair trial, right to vote.

Just think, if it were not for those who are willing to protect the flag, pledge allegiance to it, defend the weak and oppressed, the possibility that in the course of our history it could have come out that YOU could have been arrested and jailed for believing in God and our Lord Jesus Christ had history played out differently.

When I die I will rest peacefully knowing that my coffin is draped by the flag of the United States of America as I go to meet my maker.

Is short I guess it was my choice to serve and protect your rights and the rights of all who are not willing to do it for themselves and who are quick to criticize it. If my rant has been harsh, well I am sorry but it needed to be said. Some folks need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Exactly what needed to be said.

 

[jtodisco]

There is a difference between taking pride in one’s country or that country’s heritage and the form of excessive nationalism that is a disgusting form of idolatry. I do not take issue with the former, but the latter is a major problem in the United States.

For instance, I can’t even begin to count the number of times I’ve seen Catholics show more reverence for the flag than they do our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. A classic example being the people who pass by the tabernacle without even pausing for a moment, let alone bowing or genuflecting. Yet I’ve seen the same people during 4th of July celebrations gazing lovingly at the flag and singing the national anthem as loudly as they can (try to catch them actually singing a hymn in church though).

I also do not understand how it is that people wed their nationalist feelings with their religious beliefs. In case anyone didn’t notice, Jesus wasn’t an American. The Church is a pilgrim in this passing world of ours. And everything that is of this world will pass away, including the various nations of the world. We will (hopefully) be then, what we should already try to be now, citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem. When we are judged I doubt Jesus will care much whether we waved our respective national flags with fervor, but rather whether or not we followed Him.

Lastly, as others have already pointed out, I do not feel I can in good conscience salute the flag of a nation that legally sanctions the killing of hundreds of thousands of unborn children each year. And that’s just one of the many great crimes our nation is guilty of.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You have to remember the past. You don’t realize that over night that draft could be implimented and they will build tanks at GM if need be. The flag is the “reminder” the moms apple pie jingle part as I said earlier isn’t of issue.

However I do believe it needs to stay in the schools for teaching.

 

[amber_lux]

Anyone who thinks the last Just War was World War II has not been paying attention.

You are correct. WW2 was not the last just war. There is no such thing as a just war. There is no such thing as a moral war. There is no such thing as an ethical war.

All war is immoral, unjust, unethical, and hence, in a just society, illegal.

We were attacked on 9/11 specifically because Bin Laden thought that we were a paper tiger that wouldn’t fight back.

Bin Laden was engaged in self defence, against an occupying power, that was the first country to be declared a terrorist state by the united nations, and also had the dishonour of being the first country to be convicted of being a terrorist state by the united nations twice.

The united states terrorism corps. World leaders in rape, murder, pillage, and destruction for the sake of destruction.

Amber