Plenary Indulgence = Soul in Heaven?

[una_fides]

I have been speculating over these questions for months now:

The Church has defined that purgatory entails both aspects of temporal punishment and purification. When one gains a plenary indulgence for the dead, does that soul instantly enter heaven since all its temporal punishment has been remitted? Or could that soul still possibly need more purification and thus remain in purgatory until it is completely cleansed from its attachments to sin?

On that note, if someone is baptized and dies immediately afterward would that person’s soul go straight to heaven? Or could it still possibly have to be purified from attachments to sins, despite the fact that all its temporal punishment due to sin was just remitted in baptism?

I guess the underlining question is whether a soul is simultaneously purified and sanctified when its temporal punishments are remitted or whether the two aspects of purgation could occur at different times.

 

[eelpis]

I have been speculating over these questions for months now:

The Church has defined that purgatory entails both aspects of temporal punishment and purification. When one gains a plenary indulgence for the dead, does that soul instantly enter heaven since all its temporal punishment has been remitted? Or could that soul still possibly need more purification and thus remain in purgatory until it is completely cleansed from its attachments to sin?

On that note, if someone is baptized and dies immediately afterward would that person’s soul go straight to heaven? Or could it still possibly have to be purified from attachments to sins, despite the fact that all its temporal punishment due to sin was just remitted in baptism?

I guess the underlining question is whether a soul is simultaneously purified and sanctified when its temporal punishments are remitted or whether the two aspects of purgation could occur at different times.

If a person dies immediately after baptism he goes straigh to heaven. Baptism cleanses of all sin. If there was a lapse of, say a few minutes, he’d probably have to go to purgatory.

With regard to the holy souls in purgatory we cannot know if God allows the indulgence to apply to a particular soul, because the pope has no jurisdiction in purgatory, indulgences for the dead are applied “per modum suffragii”. (We hope that God in his mercy, answers our prayers, but if he sees fit he can apply the indulgence to another, more worthy soul.)

In purgatory there can be no more merit, they are already judged in the private judgment, so in purgatory there is no more increase of sanctifying grace “sanctification” there is only purgation. (That’s why it’s better to suffer on earth, because suffering here is meritorious and can gain for us a higher place in heaven)

There can be souls suffering in purgatory who are to attain a very high place in heaven, they have much merit but also some imperfections. And to go straight to heaven does not mean that your place there will be very high, you might be innocent but not very holy.

Purgatory entails more than just temporal punishment for venial sin and forgiven mortal sins. According to Saint Catherine of Genoa, purgatory is the burning love of God that burns away everything in us that is not love, it’s a work of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Souls are after the Saints in heaven the most happy, even if they at the same time suffer tremendously.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I have been speculating over these questions for months now:

The Church has defined that purgatory entails both aspects of temporal punishment and purification. When one gains a plenary indulgence for the dead, does that soul instantly enter heaven since all its temporal punishment has been remitted? Or could that soul still possibly need more purification and thus remain in purgatory until it is completely cleansed from its attachments to sin?

On that note, if someone is baptized and dies immediately afterward would that person’s soul go straight to heaven? Or could it still possibly have to be purified from attachments to sins, despite the fact that all its temporal punishment due to sin was just remitted in baptism?

I guess the underlining question is whether a soul is simultaneously purified and sanctified when its temporal punishments are remitted or whether the two aspects of purgation could occur at different times.

Those are good questions. In reading your questions, the first question that came to my mind was: Exactly what does the Church teach with respect to the two aspects of purgation - viz punishment and purification. Personally, I am not sure if these two aspects have been clarified.

It would seem to me that the two aspects are so interrelated as to be, in a sense, one and the same. For example, if a person has an attachment to sin, the process by which the person is purified IS suffering. In otherwords, suffering is what purifies.

So, for example, a person has an attachment to rash judging. In purgatory he would be purified of this attachment and punished for it, right? This would take place simultaneously since that which purifies (suffering) is the punishemtn; or, it could be said, the punishment is also that which purifies. A particular kind of suffering would be what brings about the purification of that fault.

If that is the case, the punishment and purification would be one and the same and simultaneous.

To answer your questions: If a living person obtained a plenary indulgence for a soul in purgatory, the sould would immediately be released. But keep in mind that obtaining a plenary indulgence requires no attachment to venial sin on the part of the one that is gaining the indulgence. In other words, you or I would have to be completely free from even a slight attachment to sin in order for us to gain the indulgence for ourselves or a soul in purgatory. That makes gaining a plenary indulgence difficult and probably pretty rare. If the complete “plenary” indulgence is not gain, a lesser “partial” indulgence would be.

Regarding baptism, the person would go to heaven immediately if they died just after baptism. But how can that be if they have a tendency to sin (an attachment to sin)? I guess the answer is that our tendencies to sin in and of themselves, without a corresponding actual sin, would not prevent us from flying straight to heaven.

Actually, that last underlined part is thought provoking. I am going to have to think about it.

 

[una_fides]

If a person dies immediately after baptism he goes straigh to heaven. Baptism cleanses of all sin. If there was a lapse of, say a few minutes, he’d probably have to go to purgatory.

What if that person, an adult, had committed many sins and was very attached to them. He sincerely received baptism but let’s say he had an addiction to say murder or fornication or still had attachments to material objects and was covetous and say he was very prideful. Understandably, as long as he had faith and a sincere desire to receive the sacrament, then the effect would be a cleansing of all the temporal punishments, but what about his attachments to these sins? That soul would not be in a perfect state as it would still be clinging to the things of this world. Is not that a purpose of purgatory? To cleanse the soul from any attachments to sins?

In purgatory there can be no more merit, they are already judged in the private judgment, so in purgatory there is no more increase of sanctifying grace “sanctification” there is only purgation. (That’s why it’s better to suffer on earth, because suffering here is meritorious and can gain for us a higher place in heaven)

There can be souls suffering in purgatory who are to attain a very high place in heaven, they have much merit but also some imperfections. And to go straight to heaven does not mean that your place there will be very high, you might be innocent but not very holy.

Purgatory entails more than just temporal punishment for venial sin and forgiven mortal sins. According to Saint Catherine of Genoa, purgatory is the burning love of God that burns away everything in us that is not love, it’s a work of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Souls are after the Saints in heaven the most happy, even if they at the same time suffer tremendously.

I always thought of purgatory as the completion of our sanctification through purgation of imperfection. Doesn’t the beatific vision require absolute holiness, since nothing unholy can enter the presence of God? We can be in a state of grace but not be completely holy. Thus, the process of purification is a completion of making us holy, just without merit. Once in purgatory, our degree of merit is set but we are not yet completely pure/holy, hence purgatory for purification of our souls. If my understanding is incomplete on this matter, any supporting evidence you can provide would be much appreciated.

 

[una_fides]

If that is the case, the punishment and purification would be one and the same and simultaneous.

If the punishment and purification are one in the same, then how can one answer the problem with a baptized person still being attached to sins? One’s attachments to sins do not disappear when he or she is baptized. So then the person would be receiving punishment in order to be purified but would not be necessarily guilty of the punishment being received since baptism removed all the temporal punishment due to sin.

To answer your questions: If a living person obtained a plenary indulgence for a soul in purgatory, the soul would immediately be released. But keep in mind that obtaining a plenary indulgence requires no attachment to venial sin on the part of the one that is gaining the indulgence. In other words, you or I would have to be completely free from even a slight attachment to sin in order for us to gain the indulgence for ourselves or a soul in purgatory. That makes gaining a plenary indulgence difficult and probably pretty rare. If the complete “plenary” indulgence is not gain, a lesser “partial” indulgence would be.

Right so the person gaining the plenary indulgence for the dead would be free from any attachments to sin, but that doesn’t mean that the soul in purgatory would be. Sure, all its temporal punishment would be remitted, but it may not be the soul’s time since it’s not completely cleansed. I like the explanation given that God dispenses of the indulgence as he wills, so it would make sense that if a soul is not “ready” then God could apply the indulgence to another who is.

This raises another question. Does the extent of temporal punishment equate to the amount of purification needed for the soul or could the two differ?

Regarding baptism, the person would go to heaven immediately if they died just after baptism. But how can that be if they have a tendency to sin (an attachment to sin)? I guess the answer is that our tendencies to sin in and of themselves, without a corresponding actual sin, would not prevent us from flying straight to heaven.

Actually, that last underlined part is thought provoking. I am going to have to think about it.

But aren’t tendencies to sin purged in purgatory? How could something unclean enter heaven?

 

[thistle]

I have been speculating over these questions for months now:

The Church has defined that purgatory entails both aspects of temporal punishment and purification. When one gains a plenary indulgence for the dead, does that soul instantly enter heaven since all its temporal punishment has been remitted? Or could that soul still possibly need more purification and thus remain in purgatory until it is completely cleansed from its attachments to sin?

On that note, if someone is baptized and dies immediately afterward would that person’s soul go straight to heaven? Or could it still possibly have to be purified from attachments to sins, despite the fact that all its temporal punishment due to sin was just remitted in baptism?

I guess the underlining question is whether a soul is simultaneously purified and sanctified when its temporal punishments are remitted or whether the two aspects of purgation could occur at different times.

Only God knows when someone “moves” from Purgatory to Heaven. We cannot say that specific prayers or indulgences or a particular type or number of prayers or indulgences gets someone out of Purgatory immediately thereafter. That is for God alone to decide.

On the other hand if a person is baptised and immediately dies after baptism then they would go straight to Heaven and bypass Purgatory.

 

[una_fides]

On the other hand if a person is baptised and immediately dies after baptism then they would go straight to Heaven and bypass Purgatory.

How do you know this? I heard a priest claim this before, but that doesn’t mean that was anything more than his opinion. Do we have any evidence from tradition?

Let’s say that the person was still attached to sin and was baptized. The attachment remains. How could they enter the presence of God with that attachment to sin?

 

[una_fides]

I thought of a way to possibly solve our dilemma with baptism. Perhaps when one properly disposed receives the sacrament of baptism the state of the soul is such that all defects and attachments of the soul are somehow mystically purged in that instant so that the soul is ready at that moment to attain the beatific vision. We all experience ups and downs in our spiritual walks so perhaps it would be similar to us being taken at a moment of ecstasy when our souls are most ready and willing to do all that we should and have no present attachments to sins (as in gaining a plenary indulgence). Though at that point our souls might have the capacity to sin, they nevertheless would not be clinging to any sins and therefore would not have any to purge.

I just came up with this theory, so if it has any gaps or defects, please do point them out. Thanks.

 

[thistle]

How do you know this? I heard a priest claim this before, but that doesn’t mean that was anything more than his opinion. Do we have any evidence from tradition?

Let’s say that the person was still attached to sin and was baptized. The attachment remains. How could they enter the presence of God with that attachment to sin?

There is no attachment to any sins when you are baptised. Baptism removes everything. If someone dies immediately after baptism they go straight to Heaven. Baptism is not like the Sacrament of Reconciliation where you are forgiven but there is still some attachment to sin. Baptism is being reborn and you are totally cleansed and no attachment to sin remains.
This is not simply the opinion of the priest. This is what the Church teaches. Have you not followed Father Corapi teaching of the Catechism on EWTN (and dvd). He spelled it out in clear terms. Death immediately after baptism means going directly to Heaven.

 

[Joysong]

There is no attachment to any sins when you are baptised. Baptism removes everything. If someone dies immediately after baptism they go straight to Heaven.
This is not simply the opinion of the priest.

Maybe Una Fides is thinking about “concupiscence” remaining, which is the innate consequence of original sin. Let’s assume and believe that any adult who requests baptism from the Church has the interior disposition of total allegiance to God at the time of receiving the sacrament. Otherwise, if they were attached to sin, which is rejected in the baptismal promises, they ought not to present themselves for its reception.

 

[una_fides]

There is no attachment to any sins when you are baptised. Baptism removes everything. If someone dies immediately after baptism they go straight to Heaven. Baptism is not like the Sacrament of Reconciliation where you are forgiven but there is still some attachment to sin. Baptism is being reborn and you are totally cleansed and no attachment to sin remains.
This is not simply the opinion of the priest. This is what the Church teaches. Have you not followed Father Corapi teaching of the Catechism on EWTN (and dvd). He spelled it out in clear terms. Death immediately after baptism means going directly to Heaven.

Fr. Corapi was actually the priest I was referencing, but I chose not to do so by name. I love Fr. Corpi’s preaching, but he’s not infallible. Do you have any magisterial documents to support that assertion that all attachments to sin are cleansed in baptism? I am not aware of any, but that does not mean that they do not exist.

Reason would tell us that if someone has an addiction or attachment to sin, then that is a fixation of the peson’s will to that particular offense. Baptism infuses us with the life of grace and cleanses us from guilt of sin, but baptism does not redirect our will. Purgatory redirects the defects in us and conforms our will to be completely in union with that of God’s so that we would never again choose to offend him. In addition, human experience also tells us that if one is attached to a sin, then he would still be attached to such a sin after baptism. In other words, the state of that person’s soul is affected by the person’s will, and baptism would cleanse from all guilt, but cannot affect the will and its attachments. Thus, one who still has attachments to sin when baptized would retain them afterward.

 

[una_fides]

Maybe Una Fides is thinking about “concupiscence” remaining, which is the innate consequence of original sin. Let’s assume and believe that any adult who requests baptism from the Church has the interior disposition of total allegiance to God at the time of receiving the sacrament. Otherwise, if they were attached to sin, which is rejected in the baptismal promises, they ought not to present themselves for its reception.

Concupiscence remains after baptism, but it is different than an actual attachment to sin. Concupiscence is the incentive to sin, whereas attachment is a directive of the will.

So perhaps baptism does not take complete effect on a soul until it is entirely ready to receive the sacrament. For example, if one does not have faith, and is baptized, then the baptism does not profit him. I’m not saying this occurs regularly or anything, but in the 2000 years of the history of the Church, it certainly has happened, and I’ve read of instances. As such, the sacrament would not profit the individual until he or she actually had true faith. Hence, baptism is the sacrament of faith.

I’m speculating here, but perhaps is a person’s will is not entirely directed to God and detached from sin at the moment of reception, then could it be that any temporal punishment could remain until the soul was completely properly disposed at a future time or would this contradict Church teaching? I think this topic is calling for me to do some further research. If I can find any official teachings that help us, I will post. If anyone has any handy that shed any light, please feel free to share.

 

[Joysong]

What you are speaking about, Una, is a willful attachment that one does not wish to surrender. I still cannot believe that a person who desires baptism and is of the disposition to adhere to Christ and His Church, promising and rejecting all of Satan’s empty promises, is willfully entertaining a sinful attachment.

Concupiscence in our fallen nature must be constantly struggled against, and this is where the merit of virtue is rewarded. It does not mean we are free of inclinations to gluttony, lust, greed, etc., but that all of us will have temptations which may be overcome and give glory to God.

We have the beautiful testimony of St. Catherine of Siena who had terrible images of impurity in her conscious mind and lamented this condition to Our Lord. He answered her, I was in your heart helping you to repulse them. That is the difference - it was NOT willed.

Why is this so important to you? Most people accept the Church’s teaching unequivocally and do not delve into speculative theological areas such as this.

 

[una_fides]

Why is this so important to you? Most people accept the Church’s teaching unequivocally and do not delve into speculative theological areas such as this.

Are you upset that I am trying to figure this out? And who said I do not accept the Church’s teaching?! If you can show me where I am speculating beyond what the Church teaches, then I will immediately cease. If there are any official declarations by the magisterium stating that souls that souls that die immediately after baptism bypass purgatory altogether, then the issue will be settled. If there are Church fathers who commented on such, then I welcome them and that would also help to shed light onto our discussion.

If you do not wish to participate in the discussion because it is not of any significance to you, then you don’t have to. I am only trying to see how defined dogmas fit together and am trying to piece together areas that are not defined. This is the process by which dogmas develop, and we can better come to understand them.

 

[una_fides]

What you are speaking about, Una, is a willful attachment that one does not wish to surrender. I still cannot believe that a person who desires baptism and is of the disposition to adhere to Christ and His Church, promising and rejecting all of Satan’s empty promises, is willfully entertaining a sinful attachment.

I think (or at least hope) that most adults have sincere intentions when they are baptized and are not feigning their intent, but with billions of baptized people in the world, there have been cases present day and throughout history that demonstrate less than perfect motives to desire baptism. For example, I recall reading in a Church history book that at some point, the Church had given some sort of incentives to become Catholic (I recall either offering some food or some monetary benefit such as a decrease in taxes). From what I recall it was a short-lived occurrence and was only in an isolated area. But regardless, many of those people were baptized solely for the purpose of the reward and feigned their sincerity. In addition, today how many people decide to become Catholic simply because their spouse so desires. They do not want to be Catholic but are only doing it to please them, so they feign their way through and receive the sacrament. I also know of people who are baptized while knowingly and willfully rejecting the teachings of the Church. The resulting question from these facts is what is the effect of baptism on their souls. St. Augustine commented that baptism does not even profit such a person until they have faith and enter into the unity of the Church. So unless you are willing to say that St. Augustine was not “accept the Church’s teaching unequivocally,” then I think you need to retract your allegation you directed at me.

Concupiscence in our fallen nature must be constantly struggled against, and this is where the merit of virtue is rewarded. It does not mean we are free of inclinations to gluttony, lust, greed, etc., but that all of us will have temptations which may be overcome and give glory to God.

We have the beautiful testimony of St. Catherine of Siena who had terrible images of impurity in her conscious mind and lamented this condition to Our Lord. He answered her, I was in your heart helping you to repulse them. That is the difference - it was NOT willed.

Interesting point. I think your comments here would fit with what I proposed in this post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4491229&postcount=8
The only thing that my thoughts there do not take into account is whether a person retains any willful attachment to sin when baptized whether there is a partial effect on the soul or whether the effect is altogether delayed until reception can be complete. And yes, willful attachments to sin still remain in some who are baptized. I’ve heard purgatory described as a purging from the fond memories of sin. If so, then someone baptized would still retain fond memories of their previous lifestyles and unless their will is entirely directed towards God and they entirely detest those sins with all their heart and will, then it is my understanding that they will still possess something within them that will need to be purged and purified before being able to be completely divinized and share in the very nature of God and his absolute holiness. So for some, I can certainly see this state of detachment from sin as a possibility when receiving baptism, but it is concerning the others that are the topic of inquiry.

 

[Joysong]

Are you upset that I am trying to figure this out? And who said I do not accept the Church’s teaching?

You are drawing needless inferences from my simple question, “Why does this bother you?”

You asked that I show you where you are speculating beyond what the Church teaches. The CCC has a rather extensive section devoted to baptism, and does not address an isolated improbable situation of whether the person goes to purgatory if (s)he dies immediately after receiving the sacrament. It is really going beyond an adequate need for our instruction and understanding. Rather, it tends to delve into areas of speculating about another’s soul beyond that which God and the Church have revealed.
Catechism:

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

The one valid point I agree with is your conjecture concerning the person who receives the sacrament unworthily in the examples you cited. Obviously, they would go to purgatory, if in fact they happened to be given sanctifying grace at the reception of baptism. Again – this is speculation because we cannot know the full culpability of how God will judge them for daring to feign sincerity. The same could be said of ALL the sacraments, in particular the sacrilege of receiving Eucharist in mortal sin.

 

[una_fides]

It is really going beyond an adequate need for our instruction and understanding. Rather, it tends to delve into areas of speculating about another’s soul beyond that which God and the Church have revealed.

The purpose of this thread is not basic catechesis. As stated in the OP, I realize this involves some theological speculation. If you are not comfortable with that, then there are plenty of other threads on here with which you will feel comfortable discussing. As I noted, the doctors of the Church have to one extent or another delved into such matters and to follow in their footsteps as such can produce good results in our more complete understanding of the Church’s teachings and how they fit together. It is such connecting of dots that brings us many of the dogmas we have today.

 

[Joysong]

Then you will have few takers, and those who feel qualified to make such judgments into speculative areas will provide no solid conclusion, since the Church does not address it theologically. For me, it becomes a waste of time and bandwidth.

 

[Joysong]

I believe I may have offended Una Fides in using ambiguous terminology, and I would like to clarify my meaning.

Why is this so important to you? Most people accept the Church’s teaching unequivocally and do not delve into speculative theological areas such as this.

Are you upset that I am trying to figure this out? And who said I do not accept the Church’s teaching?!

In saying that “most people accept the Church’s teaching unequivocally” I simply meant, [as the word *unequivocal is defined] that they do not enter into conditions or exceptions about baptism, but stop at the basics. Few Catholics go beyond basic teaching and explore these speculative areas of analysis, as was the OP’s intent in posting the thread. My intent was not in any way to suggest that Una Fides did NOT therefore accept Church teaching.

 

[steve99]

You are drawing needless inferences from my simple question, “Why does this bother you?”

You asked that I show you where you are speculating beyond what the Church teaches. The CCC has a rather extensive section devoted to baptism, and does not address an isolated improbable situation of whether the person goes to purgatory if (s)he dies immediately after receiving the sacrament. It is really going beyond an adequate need for our instruction and understanding. Rather, it tends to delve into areas of speculating about another’s soul beyond that which God and the Church have revealed.

I don’t think it is speculating about another’s soul. It is using a hypothetical example to elucidate the basis of Church teaching.

The Catechism says one of the effects of sin is that
“also injures and weakens the sinner himself……Absolution (forgiveness) takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused……Raised up from sin the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health.” (CCC 1459).

Also “every sin, even venial sin, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory” (CCC 1472).

Now if I am disordered and with an unhealthy attachment to creatures I don’t see how baptism changes that. The disorders are a wounded nature. Baptism remits sin and the punishment due to sin but how does it repairs my wounded nature if after baotism it takes the ourificatuion of Purgatory to effect that.