S
Sir_Knight
Guest
The rosary is led by people from the pews and starts about 20-25 minutes before the start of mass as to not interfer with the start of the mass.
- Status
S
Sirach2
Guest
The grant does not say that the rosary must be recited “vocally” in church; it simply says that one must pray (recite) the rosary in church. Nor does the requirement say it must be prayed with a group. It can be done individually, in silence.
I also own the Manual of Indulgences, 1999, and the grant requirement is listed in item 7 on page 41.
Please do not read more into the grant than the Church stipulates. It is confusing to those who are genuinely interested in performing the exercise in accord with the grant requirements.
V
Vico
Guest
I am not reading more into it that is there. The USCCB Manual of Indulgences, (2006 printing which is the US English version of the fourth edition of the Enchirdion Indulgentiarum of 1999), p. 58 states:
books.google.com/books?id=IME…ing%22&f=false
Catechism of the Catholic Church
2704 Because it is external and so thoroughly human, vocal prayer is the form of prayer most readily accessible to groups. Even interior prayer, however, cannot neglect vocal prayer. Prayer is internalized to the extent that we become aware of him "to whom we speak;"4 Thus vocal prayer becomes an initial form of contemplative prayer.
In contrast, the plenary indulgence for the Way of the Cross does not require vocal prayer, but one must move from station to station and there must be meditation:
books.google.com/books?id=IMEof2fFCHMC&pg=PR9&lpg=PR9&dq=Manual+of+Indulgences&source=bl&ots=t6sWBujEOR&sig=VXrPSLZTLdCOJOu80Tj5vvKWqI0&hl=en&ei=rQkSTuTnKIaFtgeS98HRDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=vocal&f=false
S
Sirach2
Guest
Vico,
That is the correct wording on page 58. However, you misunderstand the meaning of the word “vocal” prayer. The Church understands that vocal prayer is a prayer formula composed by others as contrasted with the prayer of the heart (called “mental prayer”), or even contemplative prayer where no words are used.
The understanding by mystical writers, and I believe the Church in this instance, is not that the word vocal means “aloud” recitation with moving the lips, as opposed to silent interior prayer. Silent prayer can also be vocal prayer in that it uses prayer words/formulas. The liturgy of the hours is an example of vocal prayer, but is just as officially prayed in union with the church when it is done silently with interior reverence. Litanies, chaplets, the rosary, etc. are examples of vocal prayer.
St. Teresa of Avila taught extensively on this. I hope this helps.
That is the correct wording on page 58. However, you misunderstand the meaning of the word “vocal” prayer. The Church understands that vocal prayer is a prayer formula composed by others as contrasted with the prayer of the heart (called “mental prayer”), or even contemplative prayer where no words are used.
The understanding by mystical writers, and I believe the Church in this instance, is not that the word vocal means “aloud” recitation with moving the lips, as opposed to silent interior prayer. Silent prayer can also be vocal prayer in that it uses prayer words/formulas. The liturgy of the hours is an example of vocal prayer, but is just as officially prayed in union with the church when it is done silently with interior reverence. Litanies, chaplets, the rosary, etc. are examples of vocal prayer.
St. Teresa of Avila taught extensively on this. I hope this helps.
V
Vico
Guest
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, vocal prayer is exterior prayer.
You can see that there is a norm for the deaf and mute to allow them to sign or read or use mental prayer.
And there is also grant 15 for mental prayer, a partial indulgence.
Differentiation is made between recitation (vocal prayer) and mental prayer in Enchiridion Indulgentiarum, also between partial and plenary indulgences.
S
Sirach2
Guest
Well, Vico, I’m not going to get into a quote war with you, for I see that your mind is not open to any opinion but your own interpretation. May I suggest you contact the USCCB for clarity before presuming to teach others here? Yes, you believe your understanding is correct. However, I am a Carmelite and have learned from the Masters of Prayer, and believe me, vocal prayer is NOT understood as saying prayers out loud.
Any who may be confused by this person’s explanation and who is unfortunately in doubt, please ask your priest, bishop, or write the USCCB who promulgated the Manual of Indugences and knows exactly what the grant requires.
What else could this possibly mean except that silent interior prayer of the heart must sometimes use vocal prayer such as the Our Father, Hail Mary and other prayer formulas. That is to be expected of a Catholic. Yet it does not say that these interior prayers must be said aloud when the person praying reverts to using vocal prayers.
Any who may be confused by this person’s explanation and who is unfortunately in doubt, please ask your priest, bishop, or write the USCCB who promulgated the Manual of Indugences and knows exactly what the grant requires.
S
Sirach2
Guest
A renoun authority on Spirituality is Fr. Jordan Aumann who had this to say about vocal prayer, very much in line with St. Teresa of Avila.
Grades of Prayer
We are indebted to St. Teresa of Avila for the clearest and best classification of the grades of prayer. Her concept that the intensity of one’s life of prayer coincides with the intensity of one’s charity is based on solid theology and was confirmed by St. Pius X, who stated that the grades of prayer taught by St. Teresa represent so many grades of elevation and ascent toward Christian perfection.
These grades are (1) vocal prayer, (2) meditation, (3) affective prayer, (4) prayer of simplicity, (5) infused contemplation, (6) prayer of quiet, (7) prayer of union, (8) prayer of conforming union, and (9) prayer of transforming union. The first four grades of prayer belong to the predominantly ascetical stage of the spiritual life; the remaining five grades are infused prayer and belong to the mystical phase of the spiritual life.
Vocal Prayer
By vocal prayer we mean any form of prayer expressed in words, whether written or spoken. This kind of prayer is the form used in public or liturgical prayer, but it is also much used by private individuals. St. Thomas gives three reasons why vocal prayer is suitable: (1) it arouses interior devotion; (2) it gives homage to God with our body as well as our mind and heart; and (3) it gives expression to the spiritual sentiments that flood the soul in prayer.
Devotion should also be the measure for the duration of one’s personal vocal prayers, for it is futile to attempt to pray well when one is fatigued. By the same token, public prayers should be arranged in such a way that they arouse the devotion of the faithful and do not cause tedium. “In your prayers do not babble as the pagans do, for they think that by using many words they will make themselves heard. Do not be like them; your Father knows what you need before you ask him” (Matt. 6:7-9).
It is not possible to give any fixed rule or detailed directions for the formulas to be used in vocal prayer. Perhaps the best principle to follow is that given for the selection of books for one’s spiritual reading, namely, to use that which is beneficial. The words by which we express ourselves in vocal prayer will vary with our needs and our spiritual sentiments. Moreover, some persons find it difficult to express themselves, and therefore they make use of the prayers composed by others.
Objectively, the best prayers are the Our Father, which was taught us by Christ himself, the prayers from the pages of Scripture (the Hail Mary, Gloria, Psalms) and the prayers in the liturgy. Unfortunately, their constant repetition readily degenerates into a purely mechanical recitation.
The necessity of fervent recitation of vocal prayer cannot be emphasized too much, because vocal prayer is one type of prayer that can never be omitted completely, even when one arrives at the height of sanctity.
domcentral.org/study/aumann/st/st12.htm
Grades of Prayer
We are indebted to St. Teresa of Avila for the clearest and best classification of the grades of prayer. Her concept that the intensity of one’s life of prayer coincides with the intensity of one’s charity is based on solid theology and was confirmed by St. Pius X, who stated that the grades of prayer taught by St. Teresa represent so many grades of elevation and ascent toward Christian perfection.
These grades are (1) vocal prayer, (2) meditation, (3) affective prayer, (4) prayer of simplicity, (5) infused contemplation, (6) prayer of quiet, (7) prayer of union, (8) prayer of conforming union, and (9) prayer of transforming union. The first four grades of prayer belong to the predominantly ascetical stage of the spiritual life; the remaining five grades are infused prayer and belong to the mystical phase of the spiritual life.
Vocal Prayer
By vocal prayer we mean any form of prayer expressed in words, whether written or spoken. This kind of prayer is the form used in public or liturgical prayer, but it is also much used by private individuals. St. Thomas gives three reasons why vocal prayer is suitable: (1) it arouses interior devotion; (2) it gives homage to God with our body as well as our mind and heart; and (3) it gives expression to the spiritual sentiments that flood the soul in prayer.
Devotion should also be the measure for the duration of one’s personal vocal prayers, for it is futile to attempt to pray well when one is fatigued. By the same token, public prayers should be arranged in such a way that they arouse the devotion of the faithful and do not cause tedium. “In your prayers do not babble as the pagans do, for they think that by using many words they will make themselves heard. Do not be like them; your Father knows what you need before you ask him” (Matt. 6:7-9).
It is not possible to give any fixed rule or detailed directions for the formulas to be used in vocal prayer. Perhaps the best principle to follow is that given for the selection of books for one’s spiritual reading, namely, to use that which is beneficial. The words by which we express ourselves in vocal prayer will vary with our needs and our spiritual sentiments. Moreover, some persons find it difficult to express themselves, and therefore they make use of the prayers composed by others.
Objectively, the best prayers are the Our Father, which was taught us by Christ himself, the prayers from the pages of Scripture (the Hail Mary, Gloria, Psalms) and the prayers in the liturgy. Unfortunately, their constant repetition readily degenerates into a purely mechanical recitation.
The necessity of fervent recitation of vocal prayer cannot be emphasized too much, because vocal prayer is one type of prayer that can never be omitted completely, even when one arrives at the height of sanctity.
domcentral.org/study/aumann/st/st12.htm
V
Vico
Guest
Referring to "2704 Because it is external and so thoroughly human, vocal prayer …
“Please explain to me how mental prayer is external.” Perhaps I do not understand English (I’m not being sarcastic here).
S
Sirach2
Guest
Vico, please read my post from Fr. Aumann. He is a wonderful teacher on prayer and explains beautifully the many kinds of prayer. You’ll note in his explanation of St. Thomas’s three reasons why vocal prayer is suitable, all three of them would be applicable to vocal prayer in private and does not imply in any way that all vocal prayer must be prayed in public, in groups, or out loud.
I hope you find his teaching helpful. He is solid!
I hope you find his teaching helpful. He is solid!
H
halleone
Guest
Sirach2, please look in your private messages… 
S
Sirach2
Guest
Folks, here’s a post that was submitted on indulgences that is a very good reference to keep in one’s file. May it erase any fears or doubts you may have about the worthiness of obtaining a plenary.
**Plenary Indulgences Not Impossible
Detachment from venial sin**
The most problematic condition is:
*…] the complete exclusion of any attachment to any sin, even venial, *
This is not a new provision in the reform of Paul VI. Lepicier in his book Indulgences, their origin, nature and development reported a controversy which was widely current in his own time. Some theologians considered that the actual gaining a plenary indulgence was very rare.
…] whilst with regard to plenary Indulgences, they teach us in a dogmatical tone that exceedingly few are those who can gain it, and fewer still are those who actually do gain it - perhaps a holy nun in some remote corner of the world, or some saintly hermit dead to this life and its concupiscences. (page 341)
In countering this severe view of indulgences, Lepicier observed that falling into venial sin is not the same as having an affection for venial sin:
From the first no man, however holy, excepting Christ, and His Blessed Mother, can call himself free; but many should be, and in reality are, free from the second. How can we imagine faithful souls, that are anxious to please God, and daily seal this desire with the Bread of Life - and their generation, thank God, is not extinct - how can we imagine such as these to be wilfully attached to that which, though not causing eternal death, yet is infinitely injurious to the Divine Majesty? (page 343)
If there is any doubt about the more lenient view of “detachment from venial sin,” it is perhaps worth noting that this view was expressed in 1895 by a Roman professor of theology.
More recently, in the grant of an indulgence for the Year of the Eucharist, the Apostolic Penitentiary restated the conditions for gaining a plenary indulgence. However, when speaking of special conditions for those who are infirm, the official English translation reads:
…] as long as they are totally free from any desire to relapse into sin, as has been stated above.
We may treat the more “lenient” view as common teaching since the Church clearly intends to grant plenary indulgences that can be obtained by the faithful every day. It would not seem reasonable to do this if it were almost impossible to gain them in practice.
We may therefore encourage people to carry out the works prescribed for the gaining of a plenary indulgence (including, for many, a return to the sacrament of confession) without discouraging them by the rigorist opinion that a plenary indulgence can scarcely ever be gained in fact.
It is also a good thing to pray before doing the indulgenced work, asking God to take away all affection for venial sin and conceiving in our hearts a hatred of any sin since all sins displease God who loves us so much.
**Plenary Indulgences Not Impossible
Detachment from venial sin**
The most problematic condition is:
*…] the complete exclusion of any attachment to any sin, even venial, *
This is not a new provision in the reform of Paul VI. Lepicier in his book Indulgences, their origin, nature and development reported a controversy which was widely current in his own time. Some theologians considered that the actual gaining a plenary indulgence was very rare.
…] whilst with regard to plenary Indulgences, they teach us in a dogmatical tone that exceedingly few are those who can gain it, and fewer still are those who actually do gain it - perhaps a holy nun in some remote corner of the world, or some saintly hermit dead to this life and its concupiscences. (page 341)
In countering this severe view of indulgences, Lepicier observed that falling into venial sin is not the same as having an affection for venial sin:
From the first no man, however holy, excepting Christ, and His Blessed Mother, can call himself free; but many should be, and in reality are, free from the second. How can we imagine faithful souls, that are anxious to please God, and daily seal this desire with the Bread of Life - and their generation, thank God, is not extinct - how can we imagine such as these to be wilfully attached to that which, though not causing eternal death, yet is infinitely injurious to the Divine Majesty? (page 343)
If there is any doubt about the more lenient view of “detachment from venial sin,” it is perhaps worth noting that this view was expressed in 1895 by a Roman professor of theology.
More recently, in the grant of an indulgence for the Year of the Eucharist, the Apostolic Penitentiary restated the conditions for gaining a plenary indulgence. However, when speaking of special conditions for those who are infirm, the official English translation reads:
…] as long as they are totally free from any desire to relapse into sin, as has been stated above.
We may treat the more “lenient” view as common teaching since the Church clearly intends to grant plenary indulgences that can be obtained by the faithful every day. It would not seem reasonable to do this if it were almost impossible to gain them in practice.
We may therefore encourage people to carry out the works prescribed for the gaining of a plenary indulgence (including, for many, a return to the sacrament of confession) without discouraging them by the rigorist opinion that a plenary indulgence can scarcely ever be gained in fact.
It is also a good thing to pray before doing the indulgenced work, asking God to take away all affection for venial sin and conceiving in our hearts a hatred of any sin since all sins displease God who loves us so much.
S
Sirach2
Guest
Finally, playing the Devil’s advocate, I think we need to examine the rubrics of the Church supposedly requiring a recitation of the rosary in church - with a group - out loud, which may limit the frequency one may obtain this plenary. Those who go to daily mass and receive communion may receive a plenary every single day, by just praying the rosary before or after mass. What if no group was available?
I doubt the Church intended to impose this literal interpretation on those who devotedly obtain indulgences, not only for themselves, but for their departed loved ones in purgatory.
If it is true that the only way to obtain an indulgence is to pray “out loud,” then the grant for praying the stations of the cross - in church - would also be limited to those times in lent within a group - out loud, yes? In my wildest imagination, I cannot fathom that this is the interpretation for either of these grants. If I am wrong, I need to be corrected by someone other than an internet poster, specifically, one who speaks for the Church with authority and wisdom. I’ve been obtaining these plenaries for a long time under the condition of praying the rosary privately in Church.
There is also a plenary simply for spending a half hour before the Blessed Sacrament. An excellent practice with the added bonus of a plenary!
Have a blessed evening everyone!
I doubt the Church intended to impose this literal interpretation on those who devotedly obtain indulgences, not only for themselves, but for their departed loved ones in purgatory.
If it is true that the only way to obtain an indulgence is to pray “out loud,” then the grant for praying the stations of the cross - in church - would also be limited to those times in lent within a group - out loud, yes? In my wildest imagination, I cannot fathom that this is the interpretation for either of these grants. If I am wrong, I need to be corrected by someone other than an internet poster, specifically, one who speaks for the Church with authority and wisdom. I’ve been obtaining these plenaries for a long time under the condition of praying the rosary privately in Church.
There is also a plenary simply for spending a half hour before the Blessed Sacrament. An excellent practice with the added bonus of a plenary!
Have a blessed evening everyone!
J
jsaldar
Guest
This may sound like a stupid question. What is plenary indulgence?
S
Sirach2
Guest
No, it isn’t stupid - you just have never been exposed to it, that’s all.
A plenary indulgence removes ALL temporal punishment from our souls due to sin. It makes us clean as our baptismal day, without stain, and ready for the beatific vision!
Pope Benedict XVI bestowed through special privilege to each TV viewer on January 1st of this new year a plenary indulgence through his apostolic blessing after mass on that day in Rome. It was televised by EWTN. This was a rare blessing, and one that I was grateful to receive.
A partial indulgence removes only PART of any punishment accrued to our souls, and it, too, is very beneficial to have the intention of gaining them. Unlike the older grants, the number of days has been removed, and we do not know how God will apply these.
A plenary indulgence removes ALL temporal punishment from our souls due to sin. It makes us clean as our baptismal day, without stain, and ready for the beatific vision!
Pope Benedict XVI bestowed through special privilege to each TV viewer on January 1st of this new year a plenary indulgence through his apostolic blessing after mass on that day in Rome. It was televised by EWTN. This was a rare blessing, and one that I was grateful to receive.
A partial indulgence removes only PART of any punishment accrued to our souls, and it, too, is very beneficial to have the intention of gaining them. Unlike the older grants, the number of days has been removed, and we do not know how God will apply these.
J
jsaldar
Guest
P
PJM
Guest
- Must be in the state of Grace
- Must desire specifically to attain such a favor
- usually some prayers are inolved [they shold have all the information there too]
- Must say One Lords Prayerm Hail Mary and Glory=Be for the intentions of our Holy Father and Must make a good -confession and Holy Communion within [usually 7-10] days.
Pat
V
Vico
Guest
Thank you for the Fr. Aumann teachings. It is very good.
There are two definitions for vocal prayer that are used, one is general and the other is specific, according to the Fr. John Hardon seminars. The two kinds of vocal prayer:
therealpresence.org/archives/Commandments/Commandments_016.htm
In the Manual of Indulgences, the requirements for the plenary indulgence of the Marian rosary use the words “recite” and “vocal prayer”. Recite is audible according to the dictionary.
In the general norms we see that the deaf and mute are not bound to this in public or private (N26 below) [emphasis mine]. They are very specific here to detail the requirement of recitation, with an grant for the deaf and mute to “recite the prayers mentally”.
N22. An indulgence attached to a prayer can be acquired by reciting the prayer in any language, provided that the translation is approved by the competent ecclesiastical authority.
N23. To gain an indulgence it is sufficient to recite the prayer alternately with a companion or to follow it mentally while it is being recited by another.
N26. Both the deaf and the mute can gain indulgences attached to public prayers if, together with the other faithful praying in the same place, they devoutly raise their mind and affections to God; regarding private prayers it is sufficient for them to recite the prayers mentally or express them with signs, or simply to read them without pronouncing the words.
You might have noticed from the Catechism that the emphasis is on the perfect form of prayer, 2703 states that “He also wants the external expression that associates the body with interior prayer, for it renders him that perfect homage which is his due.”
In a plenary indulgence we strive for a perfect expression, falling short we have a partial indulgence.
V
Vico
Guest
An instruction given by + Fr. Bruno Cocuzzi, OCD
In the previous conference I stated that, according to my textbook, vocal prayer is comprised of *truly human *speech, and that one of the pre-requisites for that is to *actually *speak the words of the prayer.
At that time I neglected to add a comment by the author:
Hence, whoever merely reads the prayer with the eyes, or merely thinks the words of the prayer, would not be doing vocal prayer. Neither would one who does not move the lips, or who moves the lips without activating the vocal cords.
However, even though true vocal prayer must be audible, it is not necessary that anyone but the one praying hear it.
In the previous conference I stated that, according to my textbook, vocal prayer is comprised of *truly human *speech, and that one of the pre-requisites for that is to *actually *speak the words of the prayer.
At that time I neglected to add a comment by the author:
Hence, whoever merely reads the prayer with the eyes, or merely thinks the words of the prayer, would not be doing vocal prayer. Neither would one who does not move the lips, or who moves the lips without activating the vocal cords.
However, even though true vocal prayer must be audible, it is not necessary that anyone but the one praying hear it.
S
Sirach2
Guest
Vico,
I have asked that you obtain clarification from the USCCB on this, yet you continue to process your own interpretation as the final word. That is perilous for so serious a matter as a plenary for those who read this thread and receive misinformation.
If two Carmelite authors are not able to agree on what vocal prayer means, then how can you or anyone else determine which definition is accurate? (Fr. Aumann vs. Fr. Cocuzzi) Likewise, the Manual itself is ambiguous concerning the specifics for obtaining the grant on page 41 versus page 58.
I note this tenet makes a distinction that one may pray the rosary privately while meditating on the mysteries. The connotation is that it need not be prayed in a group, nor does it suggest that if one is praying privately, say in a visit to the Blessed Sacrament, that one must pray it aloud, using the vocal cords, in order to gain the indulgence.
In addition to contacting AAA here at CAF, I will be in touch with the USCCB, for they are the ones who need to clarify the wording in their own Manual.
I have asked that you obtain clarification from the USCCB on this, yet you continue to process your own interpretation as the final word. That is perilous for so serious a matter as a plenary for those who read this thread and receive misinformation.
If two Carmelite authors are not able to agree on what vocal prayer means, then how can you or anyone else determine which definition is accurate? (Fr. Aumann vs. Fr. Cocuzzi) Likewise, the Manual itself is ambiguous concerning the specifics for obtaining the grant on page 41 versus page 58.
I note this tenet makes a distinction that one may pray the rosary privately while meditating on the mysteries. The connotation is that it need not be prayed in a group, nor does it suggest that if one is praying privately, say in a visit to the Blessed Sacrament, that one must pray it aloud, using the vocal cords, in order to gain the indulgence.
It truly seems like dissecting hairs to imply such rigidness that God would not honor the Church’s grant because of misunderstanding a word’s definition. IOW, you imply that He will not hear the intention of the heart that is praying unless the prayer is also spoken audibly. This is commonplace with sola scriptura causing splits into thousands of religions over the meaning of a single word. We see misunderstanding concerning V-II documents all over this forum, with gurus proffering their expertise. How sad.
In addition to contacting AAA here at CAF, I will be in touch with the USCCB, for they are the ones who need to clarify the wording in their own Manual.
S
Sir_Knight
Guest
When the Church states something, it uses the generally accepted definition of the terms UNLESS noted otherwise. The primary definition of “vocal” is “to utter by the voice”. There is nothing more to clarify. Are you going to ask if “vocal” really means “vocal”? Why would the Church say “vocal” if it didn’t mean “vocal”? The Church has already spoken on this matter.
The thousands of splits in religion happen when people refuse to obey the authority of the Church (which, by the way, comes from the Son of God Himself) and want things to be done THEIR way …
- “The church says that I need to confess my sins to a priest in confession but I believe that God will forgive me my sins if I tell God I’m sorry in my heart and therefore I don’t need to go to confession.”
- “The Church says that the prayer is to be spoken audibly but God can hear my inner most thoughts so I don’t have to obey the church and utter the words by voice.”
- Status