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Clevus
Guest
That’s unfortunate. I was hoping to enter a discussion on a platform of neutrality.
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Clevus
Guest
I’ll remind the next holocaust victim of this, thanks.
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Lou2U
Guest
I’m curious as to what you wanted to achieve from this thread, OP?
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
My mother’s parents and grandparents were Irish Catholics who emigrated to USA from Ireland, with her father’s family living briefly in England along the way. Yes there was a lot of anti-Catholic bigotry and abuse in the old country, which is a big reason why they left. Yes, some of this continued into the later 20th century and into USA. Some members of my father’s Protestant family objected to him converting to Catholicism and marrying a Catholic. The KKK was anti-Catholic as well as anti-Jewish and anti-black.
Yes, Catholics themselves throughout history have done their share of acting very badly towards others as well.
I guess if this is news to anyone the thread can be chalked up to “learning experience”, otherwise I do not see the point either except for ourselves to make a mental note to act like true Christians and not behave badly going forward, such as to the Muslims, or to non-believers, or to any other group with whom we disagree.
You can still run into some anti-Catholic and anti-Irish sentiment from time to time in UK and it’s important that those of us with a heritage there speak up when it happens; also I think it’s important that the world understand that we have suffered our share of abuse just like many other groups, as there is a tendency to dismiss the past prejudice as somehow not having existed or not having been a big deal when in fact it was. But I also have many lovely friends in England who do not think or behave in a prejudiced manner and I go about my business there almost entirely unbothered when I visit, so there is no point in harboring a big grudge. Father forgive them and then maybe the Father will forgive us for our bad past also.
Yes, Catholics themselves throughout history have done their share of acting very badly towards others as well.
I guess if this is news to anyone the thread can be chalked up to “learning experience”, otherwise I do not see the point either except for ourselves to make a mental note to act like true Christians and not behave badly going forward, such as to the Muslims, or to non-believers, or to any other group with whom we disagree.
You can still run into some anti-Catholic and anti-Irish sentiment from time to time in UK and it’s important that those of us with a heritage there speak up when it happens; also I think it’s important that the world understand that we have suffered our share of abuse just like many other groups, as there is a tendency to dismiss the past prejudice as somehow not having existed or not having been a big deal when in fact it was. But I also have many lovely friends in England who do not think or behave in a prejudiced manner and I go about my business there almost entirely unbothered when I visit, so there is no point in harboring a big grudge. Father forgive them and then maybe the Father will forgive us for our bad past also.
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Clevus
Guest
This would be fine if the door was closed on a lesson well learned. But the anti-Catholic sentiment still prevails and as we know God does not forgive past acts either collectively or individually until they show an indication of reparation. The Amalakites did not fair too well with God either. The British people could pass an anti hatred law immediately if the sentiments are as you say different today. It could make restitution by restoring the stolen goods to the Church. What other things it can do is endless. No, the position is justified, and it claims so on the same precept has the holocaust and other positions.
But I resent your categorizing my opinions on Jihadists fundamantals. But that too becomes part of Henry’s legacy isn’t it?
But I resent your categorizing my opinions on Jihadists fundamantals. But that too becomes part of Henry’s legacy isn’t it?
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Clevus
Guest
Since my discussion is with those who claim to predicate their lives on the mores of a Divine belief system, and much of these events deal with religion, it would be wholly inadequate for me to know how to proceed with a discussion with you.
My apology, no offense intended.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
God is going to forgive individually to the extent each individual person indicates reparation for sins they themselves committed. If an individual person did not commit a particular sin (perhaps because he or she was not even born when the abuses were going on) then God is not going to hold them responsible for it as a member of some guilty “collective”.
The UK has all kinds of human rights and anti-discrimination and anti-hatred laws already.
If all countries and peoples were required to “make restitution” in this way we would be “making restitution” for a huge number of things going back thousands of years and frankly it’s not a workable solution. How about just working towards a better understanding and perhaps even some day a merger of the Catholic and Anglican churches? That would be more important in God’s eyes than a restitution of material things, anyway.
Queen Elizabeth I may have been English/British
But then, so were St. Thomas More.
And St. John Fisher.
And the Forty Martyrs.
And St. Margaret Clitherow.
And Blessed John Henry Newman.
Seems to me the soil of Britain is consecrated by so many saints and martyrs.
Can’t get too mad at that. Rather than see English in the persecutors, I would rather see English in the saints.
But then, so were St. Thomas More.
And St. John Fisher.
And the Forty Martyrs.
And St. Margaret Clitherow.
And Blessed John Henry Newman.
Seems to me the soil of Britain is consecrated by so many saints and martyrs.
Can’t get too mad at that. Rather than see English in the persecutors, I would rather see English in the saints.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
It is similar to the thought process that holds people in the USA who were born in the last couple of decades responsible for slavery and all the abuses to African-Americans in the pre-Civil Rights era. It’s all ridiculous.
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Picky_Picky
Guest
No apology needed, no offence taken. How odd, though, that after a post in which you make the most bitter condemnation of me and mine, you find yourself unable to “proceed with a discussion” with me. Or perhaps not so odd.
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ltwin
Guest
I don’t think you can separate the two. Let’s remember, the papal bull Regnans in Excelsis declared Elizabeth I illegitimate, released subjects from any allegiance to her, and excommunicated anyone who followed her orders. The Catholic Church’s own actions had a part in coloring all English Catholics as traitors or potential traitors to the crown.
As for the Gunpowder Plot, it was clearly an attempt to blow up the Protestant government in an attempt to accomplish a Catholic takeover. The plan was to raise the daughter of James I as a Catholic and restore Catholicism.
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Clevus
Guest
Catholics are allowed to express their protest to injustice. Aquinas states that anger is a legitimate expression to injustice. If those who can’t express it for themselves, then their brothers and sisters can do it for them. If then anger is, then a collected discussion in protest would be. Some of Henry’s victims require ancestors and live people to remind others and nations that some will still remember. Not one but many holocaust victims have made this statement as an intrinsic right.
There is a new forum post even today concerning the announcement that it’s the 15th apology the Vatican makes on the abuse crimes of decades ago. Why? If we are to remain silent, why should they ask it again? Why should England demand war reparations from Germany for WWI and WW2?
There is a new forum post even today concerning the announcement that it’s the 15th apology the Vatican makes on the abuse crimes of decades ago. Why? If we are to remain silent, why should they ask it again? Why should England demand war reparations from Germany for WWI and WW2?
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ltwin
Guest
No one is saying to remain silent, but I think some people have been gently trying to urge caution in how we assign responsibility for complex historical social, religious, and political controversies. To say that “the British System” is evil because it persecuted Catholics is simplistic. You could just as easily say the “Catholic System” is evil because at various times heretics were suppressed even when they operated outside of the Catholic Church.
I mean every single person who is part of any religious or ethnic group can point fingers to a hundred other groups all day but finger pointing does not change history–it only wastes time in an everlasting game of blame shifting. By all means, remember injustice and learn from history but don’t go to the extreme of labeling entire nations “evil”.
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HolyCrusader007
Guest
To add to that The Catholics Richard the Lionheart and Edward Longshanks. And King Arthur dare I say of which some historians say existed.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
Just two brief comments on the restitution issue. The Church in England has always considered itself separately English, and goods, buildings, land, etc, all belong to England. I don’t believe it considers anything ‘stolen’ whatsoever.
Secondly, when looking at stolen goods, perhaps you might want to talk to the people in the Vatican library and archives. There are thousands of precious items that rightfully belong elsewhere. Israel has been trying for decades to retrieve stolen items, for example, that belong to the Jewish people. The Vatican has declined. Perhaps you could make an appeal?
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Picky_Picky
Guest
I met him — in fact our worlds intersected and he was an acquaintance (nothing more) who I bumped into regularly for a time. This was best part of a lifetime ago — before The Colour of Magic. Did I predict that he would go on to become such a phenomenal success? Of course I did (and I lie) 
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Picky_Picky
Guest
Indeed. The people of the village where I now live have been worshipping in the same parish church for many centuries, and in a church on that site for more than a thousand years. The idea that they should be ejected and the building given to someone else seems somewhat inequitable to me.
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Picky_Picky
Guest
I wonder if the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster would be happy to take on the enormous cost of maintaining England’s historic churches?
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Kaninchen
Guest
Arguments about whose ancestors paid for them would be interesting.
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reggieM
Guest
As I said, this is anachronistic. Your word “coloring” is good. They were “painted” as something they weren’t. The English Catholics were not traitors. They were being persecuted by the government for their religious belief. And it was the English government who forced a new religion on them. From the Catholics perspective, this was schismatic. Yes, Catholic properties and churches were stolen also.
Now we’re 450 years later, in the 21st century. My point is that we still have people in England (and elsewhere, obviously) who think that what happened to the Catholics was either not significant, or that the Catholics were to blame for the government takeover of the church. This is absurd.
As I also said, this situation is not going to change unless/until the CofE separates from the state, which of course, may never happen.
My point regarding Guy Fawkes (in Sussex they still burn effigies of the Pope) is that this is merely a more overt and public display of anti-Catholicism that still exists in England. Yes, thankfully, it has 450 years of some amount of healing. Healing of this kind of evil goes through stages from hatred, to denial, to ignoring it, to accepting it, to apologizing for it, to making reparations. We’re somewhere around the “ignoring it” stage. It will probably be a hundred years before there is some contrition for what happened.
Yes, it’s a good comparison to how America dealt with slaves. There’s a collective guilt. Later generations will say they had nothing to do with it. But for the people who were persecuted, they can see an attitude still resident in society that doesn’t go away easily. Call it racism or prejudice or whatever. If this was all just some historic thing, entirely gone now - that would be one thing. But if the attitudes and subtle prejudices live on, then that’s what the OP is addressing.
Sure, it’s difficult for the oppressors (and the ancestors of them) to accept or realize any of this.
But I’ll close with the irony of a society that is hyper-sensitive to the way we treat pets, or other minorities (gays, trans, Muslims, Jews) - can’t even see that Catholics were trying to protect their religion, and that includes Guy Fawkes. Hatred for the English government was a result of the persecution and oppression Catholic people faced for adhering to their faith. The Catholic martyrs were not traitors - and they many denied being that in their last words before being killed. They were killed for their faith, not as political rebels.
People today, right here on this thread, can’t see that or admit it.
It’s guilt and nationalism - and blindness because of the centuries-old historical cover-up of how King Henry and his successors unjustly persecuted people who had done nothing wrong. They merely wanted to adhere to the Catholic religion of their English forefathers. English historians spent the last 4 centuries covering this up and distorting it. Look at the response to data showing Shakespeare’s Catholic background. It’s blatantly obvious. Anti-Catholicism was built into the structure of modern (post Henry VIII) England.
Ok, fine - that was centuries ago. But that’s all the more reason that a 21st century person should just face the facts and admit what happened – and show as much sensitivity and concern for the persecuted Catholics as they do for other popular minorites these days.
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