Pls Help. Sadness and Post-Marriage Doubts

[24hrs]

A friend has been married near ten years. We kept in touch & i saw her become Christian, then catholic. She has told me that what drew her to her husband was that he was a good Christian guy, kind & honest. Before that she had known types who were outwardly Christian but privately worldly.
When I met her she seemed happy, dating the man that is now her husband while ex was almost unheard of. Back when they were together they were engaged, but a wedding date was never set. When she spoke of past she had a lot of emotion, had said yes to marrying him but he kept wavering & there were conscience issues so she shut it down.

I recall that she asked another friend if it was OK to marry who she didn’t find a sexual pull towards but i didn’t think anything of it. She told me that feelings grow anyway, & was optimistic. Recently she’s told me that she had doubts, that she was not over her ex, and that not being able to give husband 100% has made her unhappy. I knew the ex tried to win her back before she wed, but she said it would be giving up too much that looked good and right for a chance situation even if her heart was still tender. She limited contact with this ex, as keeping the clean image & being Christian mattered a lot.

Now she’s asking me if her marriage is valid in the true catholic sense because of being still in love with her ex at the time of wedding. She suffers nightmares, feels she somehow cheated her now-husband by not being able to fully give her heart to him. There is still something that never formed. She told me that the day before the wedding she said they didn’t have to do it, & he just looked at her. I now know privately she cried after the service. She says she chose her husband for noble reasons but that marital bond, physical connection is missing, even after children, because she views him as a best friend & has never had proper intimate-level emotions for him, in spite of conjugal love.

Years ago she joked that if she loved less than him at least she wouldn’t be hurt, but now perhaps it wasn’t a joke. She is worried about how to go long-term through the motions because she can’t force the heart side, however she prays & is very fond of hubby. He remains unaware of her struggles thankfully, but she tells me she feels like a hopeless case. Marriage needs work but i am concerned, she is saying extreme things like how she didn’t fully understand what she was doing when she married him, &the impact of leaving out the romantic attraction part etc. Yes people over-value emotions, but maybe God made them for good too?

Experiencing a past where she did sadly have those emotions and physical side, even though wrong, makes not having them replaced in marriage a big struggle. She is honest, has had no contact with her ex, nor does she plan to, but she prays for him because she tells me that she can do good from afar that way, offer it up.

She is sensible in other areas of life &takes her now-catholic faith seriously. This is causing her sleepless nights. She has carried this burden for years not telling anyone else, as even priests are not always understanding or guiding in my experience.

Please pray!

 

[Annie]

Are you asking for advice for your friend or just prayers?

 

[MNathaniel]

Now she’s asking me if her marriage is valid in the true catholic sense because of being still in love with her ex at the time of wedding.

She is worried about how to go long-term through the motions because she can’t force the heart side… she tells me she feels like a hopeless case.

she is saying extreme things like how she didn’t fully understand what she was doing when she married him

Based on the bolded bits of what you said… are you seeking counsel here about whether your friend might be eligible for an annulment? When you say she’s asking about validity, and talking as if she wants a way out…

This sounds to me like serious and painful feelings she’s struggling with, that she should be discussing with her priest (and probably, a Catholic marriage counsellor – even if she sees the counsellor alone).

Incidentally, one internet stranger to another… I empathize with your friend’s situation. My heart goes out to her. I avoided going down this path with someone for fear of these very regrets. I have had nightmares in which I went through with a wedding and later regretted it. And at the same time… it sounds like your friend did really walk down this path. She made the marriage vows, and consummated the marriage. She was apparently not under duress (you say she commented the day before the wedding that she was aware she didn’t have to go through with it – so when she did go through with it, that was her choice). She had children with this man. She considers him her best friend, and it sounds like they’re both Christian and pray together?

Honestly… I don’t think you or your friend should take advice from anyone on the Internet. Including me. But I’d offer a note of caution here, not to get too much momentum behind the idea that this marriage might be invalid. It sounds like the main grounds she’s considering, would be some sort of claim that she lacked full knowledge to consent because she didn’t realize that new feelings wouldn’t form later, or she underestimated how important the lack of such feelings would feel for her? But… I’m not sure that’s the kind of thing an annulment committee will consider grounds.

I’m not suggesting you spook her with a gloomy outlook right now. But please, try to help her connect with a good priest/counsellor who can help her through this? Right now she needs external guidance that is both compassionate and clear.

 

[1ke]

Now she’s asking me if her marriage is valid in the true catholic sense because of being still in love with her ex at the time of wedding.

Tell her to seek spiritual direction from her priest.

You cannot tell her what she wants to hear. She wants someone to tell her that her marriage is invalid.

 

[Annie]

Reality is difficult and filled with problems. Double the number of people involved, and you double the problems.

Your friend is very aware of all the problems that exist in her marriage.

Your friend has been dreaming of another man.

What happens in this type of situation is that the dreamer thinks life with the other person will be perfect. She is in a way having a relationship with a person who exists only in her imagination.

Were she to leave her husband for this other man, there would be difficulties and problems in the new relationship as well. This is why so often second marriages do not last.

I would suggest that as long as your friend sees the ex as a potential option, she will not commit properly to her marriage.

 

[24hrs]

I think i am just expressing my concern here because it’s such a sensitive subject, which in turn is uncomfortable and needs to be kept private, and therefore this was the only place to air.
I am a little offended with the suggestion that my friend ‘sees her ex as a potential’ when she has not has contact with him (to my knowledge) since the day they last spoke, before she got married! I would not like to think her a liar… !!!
She has a good relationship with her husband outside of this issue, but it is a private and horrible issue.
Surely it is harsh to suggest that she is hoping for anything with anyone else for that matter, as she’s never spoken to me with a voice that pines for fairytales or other mythical men, only that she is shocked and hurt as to why she doesn’t have these beneficial feelings, which in a marriage to someone who was and is a best friend, you might be reasonable to come to expect?
She wants reassurance about her faith but hasn’t had the courage to voice it to anyone else apart from me with it being so sensitive in nature. She would benefit from prayer, not ridicule.

 

[24hrs]

Thank you. I don’t think that she is seeking an annulment, in fact she has said to me that she doesn’t intend to do anything that would hurt/ jeopardise her marriage but she is conflicted precisely because of these recurring nightmares paired with the lack of romantic feelings- that I believe she does want to enjoy- with her husband. They are outwardly happy people, you would never know of this issue to look at them, yet she felt that she needed to confide in me. I also believed she was happy and had totally moved on until she opened up, and I want to provide some hope. I want to suggest that this chemistry or whatever she desires might one day come, they have had their share of external trials like any couple and remained unshaken together, but on this issue i fear all i can do i pray and privately via here (anonymously) request genuine prayers.

 

[Annie]

am a little offended with the suggestion that my friend ‘sees her ex as a potential’

that she was not over her ex,

I sorry if I misunderstood you, but also did not mean to suggest that this is necessarily be an outward thing. If he still comes up in her thoughts and she gives in to them, it can still cause problems!

Your friend may have problems that you as a friend are not equipped to help her with. She may need to speak with a counselor to help her resolve her feelings, and to a priest to sort out her doubts and concerns.

 

[MasterXploder7]

Your friend might have grounds for an annulment if she had lied or not been fully honest about her intention/desire to be married to this person. She really should talk to a priest. They need to talk through the situation. Either way, it might be an invalid marriage given the circumstances of the wedding if they happened exactly as was presented in the OP.

Remember everyone: “Marry someone you love, not someone you feel obligated to love.”

 

[MNathaniel]

I want to suggest that this chemistry or whatever she desires might one day come

Honestly, and I’m sorry for the painful nature of it, but I think that would be wishful thinking, and I’m not sure it’s the best idea to encourage her in a false hope. At least, if you’re thinking of “chemistry” in terms of

sexual pull towards

physical connection

intimate-level emotions for him

romantic attraction part

The feelings of physical sexual attraction it sounds like you’re referring to, are those feelings that married couples seem to report fading over time, not growing stronger. If sexual attraction isn’t present during the honeymoon period… I’m honestly open to someone jumping in here with specific counter examples, but I haven’t heard of initially-absent sexual attraction newly appearing after a couple has been married so long they already have past-tense children.

Seeing a counsellor for help navigating the reality of her situation, rather than pinning her hopes on a seemingly unlikely sudden switch in her body chemistry, seems to me the most likely to help your friend towards happiness soonest. Maybe a counsellor can help her cognitively reframe her situation for herself?

 

[farronwolf]

Some might not like my response but here it is.

Your friend needs to stop lying to her husband. She needs to tell him the truth about her thoughts, her feelings towards him, and whatever lack of connection she feels.

The only way they are going to work through this, if they are, and if she has a desire to have a better marriage, is to make certain that her husband know what she is feeling and having difficulty with.

If she has no desire to fix her marriage and is only looking for a way out. I can’t help much.

When someone promises to their spouse and God that they will do all the things in their marriage vows and then decides they don’t want to do that any more I have little sympathy for them.

 

[24hrs]

Thank you.
I agree that honesty here is probably the best approach. It is, but there has to be a right and delicate approach.
I do not think that she has suddenly decided that ‘she does not want to do that anymore’ regarding marriage vows, as that sounds cold and cheap as if these things appeared on a whim, rather that she is confused and wants to improve things but doesn’t know how.
The trouble is when things are left that they indeed get bigger, and it seems to me that this issue however she feels or has been conflicted has been going on for some significant length of time.
If you can find it in your heart to pray i am sure that would be greatly appreciated.
Not just for this delicate case, but for the education of people before they get married, and what a Christian or indeed a catholic marriage means.
I am not sure that it is taught or explained anymore in most places to effective standards.
Yes, this woman’s decision was her own, nobody hand-cuffed her down the isle, but at the same time there are many factors, and with the influence of secular outlook and many different variants on what it means to be Christian, proper teaching on what a good relationship means appears to be scarce, as are the availability of older wise women to teach and advise younger.
I am aware that in this case the woman concerned came from a broken, non religious family and if there were not a number of difficulties, including the availability of good counsel, she probably would have dealt with this issue long ago.
I am also aware that there is not much more i can do but pray, although it was disconcerting to hear such an issue, particularly from a dear friend, and I wish her well and peace in Christ.

 

[StarMapp]

I know how she must be in great pain. I don’t know what will work for your friend, or rather them, because it is the them that is the focus.

Once children arrive, priorities change. It is no longer about the discomforts and sacrifices of the adult situation. The children become everything. So both couples need to sacrifice and tolerate, not to make a lot out of setbacks, but to make up for them quickly so the kids can see where to gain the cohesive energy that family love rewards. Especially pray to the Holy Family.

A priest once counseled that wives stay home with the children rather than work. This is one that got my conscience as well.

Be kind with your spouse, discuss privately, settle quickly and leave with fondness and …just be silly. and kid a lot with your spouse,(my wife and I have had our share of EEEEEEwwwww reactions from our kids. Lots of laughs all around for everyone. ),dining out privately, and with family socially. Love can grow. Pick up and move on and if one has to accept, then do so.

As someone mentioned here, both spouses should talk to a family counselor. Openly, no pride and shame make sacrifices for each other. Pray also openly.

Family life carries a sign, we are one of Three.

Recall that pop song lyric of years ago. “…such are the dreams of the everyday housewife… etc”, leave that back then where it belongs. These are not dreams but something more sinister. The husband and wife are now bound to make it work. The lyric is a suggestion that goads the tempted to live out that life out of the Holy bond. Do the impossible. You both hold a copy of that celestial contract, and He holds the third. Who better can you count on?. He has something vested in it also, the future of the family and Church they will do their share to uphold it. While doing your best, from that setback, moving from just or barely getting along to the better true love, that perfect love, God is sure to help you both,

In conclusion, how can parents dare to scheme to dismantle our children’s world, wasting every minute of their environment they find themselves in, and where God decided would be their place of nurture, that specific Institution of Family and spiritual upbringing. Worse, the adults begin to use the children in the tactics and strategy of their war on the spouse.

There’s too much of this acceptance of the outer world ways these final days. christians call themselves Christians, and all other confusion abounds for children. The outer world draws people in to isolate the children away from real life situations and learning examples. The opposite is true. These days parents are called today to prove they desire the good of their children, for their sake, for their sake, for THEIR sake. They can now practice this.

St. Monica will help out. She knows exactly what your friend is going through.

 

[Vico]

…
Yes people over-value emotions, but maybe God made them for good too?
…
Please pray!

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1765 There are many passions. The most fundamental passion is love, aroused by the attraction of the good. Love causes a desire for the absent good and the hope of obtaining it; this movement finds completion in the pleasure and joy of the good possessed. The apprehension of evil causes hatred, aversion, and fear of the impending evil; this movement ends in sadness at some present evil, or in the anger that resists it.

 

[MNathaniel]

Your friend needs to stop lying to her husband. She needs to tell him the truth about her thoughts, her feelings towards him, and whatever lack of connection she feels.

The only way they are going to work through this, if they are, and if she has a desire to have a better marriage, is to make certain that her husband know what she is feeling and having difficulty with.

For whatever it’s worth, on a pragmatic level I disagree with this advice.

I think the wife’s first step should be to see a counsellor, alone. Honesty should begin with an unbiased person who can help her organize her thoughts – and won’t be simultaneously traumatized by them.

It’s possible that with counseling (both from a priest and from a more intensive counsellor), she’ll realized that (A) annulment isn’t an option – which will focus her mind on making her marriage work well, rather than leaving areas of her mind diverted with thoughts of leaving; and (B) that is possible to develop a level of intimate affection for her husband that will improve the felt quality of her marriage – or that it is possible to cognitively reframe the situation in another way that also improves the felt quality of her marriage.

Honesty is generally a good thing. But going straight to the person most likely to be injured by our words, when our words are at their most probably-injurious, and our mind is confused such that with a little counseling we might not need to say the words at all, or can at least say a much more constructive set of words… well. I’ll leave my opinion there. Except for saying I think if the wife ever gets counselling, and realizes how much better a counsellor could have helped her interact with her husband, she’d regret blurting out the most hurtful thing possible to him now (“I never really loved you and I’m asking our friends to help me figure out a way that our marriage might not be real.”)

There’s a time and a way to tell the truth. For the sake of another person’s well being (and relationship integrity) it sometimes is best to take extra time to make sure that we’ve done everything we can on our end first, to be in the most constructive place possible before we involve the other person (and then to involve them as gently and constructively as possible).

 

[farronwolf]

I didn’t say she had to blurt it out or tell him in a hurtful way.

Could counseling help, possibly. Could going to her priest help, possibly, although I never felt like getting marriage advice from someone who has never been married to be a good solution. Kind of like asking someone who hasn’t been to space to describe what it looks and feels like to look at the earth from space.

If she has been married long enough to have a couple of kids, and her husband is clueless to how she is feeling, or that she has had changed feelings, then she is either very good at covering it up, or he is oblivious to what is happening in his marriage.

In the OP it is stated that she resisted her ex because but " she said it would be giving up too much that looked good and right for a chance situation even if her heart was still tender. She limited contact with this ex, as keeping the clean image & being Christian mattered a lot."

So it appears that she has been living at least some portion of a lie the whole time. Perpetuating this lie does no one any good.

I am not discounting counseling of some sort, but if she isn’t ready to be honest with herself and others, how far will this get her?

 

[NevermoreLenore]

I’d offer a note of caution here, not to get too much momentum behind the idea that this marriage might be invalid.

This is one of the best pieces of advice I’ve heard…ever: don’t allow “too much momentum behind the idea…”.

“For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience
when your obedience is complete.”
•II Corinthians 10:3-6

please, try to help her connect with a good priest/counsellor who can help her through this? Right now she needs external guidance that is both compassionate and clear.

As a psychologist, I want to strongly suggest if counselling is sought that she looks specifically for a Catholic therapist. I won’t bore you with the ethics and legal restraints upon therapists, or what leeway we have, but nearly every therapist, including (especially?) a Christian therapist will do their job in validating a patient’s pain (which is good) but see things temporally and go down the road of “God wants you to be happy”. If I, as a Catholic psychologist, ‘pushed’ my beliefs of the sanctity of marriage on non Catholic patients, it’s considered unethical and I could lose licensure and be sued for malpractice (one of many reasons I stick to psychoeducation, research, and writing). What I’m saying is that a counsellor is not going to help his/her patient to uphold marital vows but works from the perspective of ‘what makes the client suffer less and obtain happiness’. I’d stick with a priest and maybe a Catholic counsellor if you can find one. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

 

[NevermoreLenore]

farronwolf:

Your friend needs to stop lying to her husband. She needs to tell him the truth about her thoughts, her feelings towards him, and whatever lack of connection she feels.
For whatever it’s worth, on a pragmatic level I disagree with this advice.

I’m with @MNathaniel. The most demasculating thing you can say to a man you’ve been married to for years is to tell him you’re not attracted to him. Those words will FOREVER haunt and shame him.

My situation is different and I hesitate to even put words to it, but I was not physically attracted to my husband for about ten years–it began when our kids were all infant, toddler, and preschool age, I was dealing with cancer but not so sick as to be unable to, uh, perform. As certain tumours were found and treated, several were/are of the type that effects hormones and the neuroendocrine system, so there was a physiological element there (I didn’t know this at the time, though).

I will never ever tell my husband about the long period of lack of attraction because I know he’d be utterly crushed. During that period I did two things: one, I decided to never ever turn my husband away. I always responded, acted ‘as if’ I was an enthusiastic partner. I did it as an act of love for him. Second, I prayed daily that God would allow me the attraction my husband so greatly deserved. This was not an easy burden to carry but carry it, I did. Over the last decade, especially the last five years or so, the switch flipped and my attraction to him drives me insane most days. I won’t be inappropriate here, but I can’t get enough of him. We’ve always had a strong marriage, but now we are like honeymooners and I get giddy when the garage door opens when he’s home from work. But, this is after YEARS of prayer and ‘acting as if’ until it wasn’t acting anymore.

It is useful to keep certain things in mind. Looking at a lifetime of marriage, from one’s twenties when everything is new and exciting, we have youth and beauty, smooth skin, full and vibrant hair, fit bodies. Then comes hair loss, children, illness, being sandwiched between ailing parents and raising kids. If you’re lucky, then comes grey hair, ailing bodies, limitations, etc. If the choice is a husband too whom you’re über attracted NOW (who’s to say that will last?) or a husband who is your best friend, I’d go for friendship every time. Time marches on and too many people lose sight of the bigger picture. We don’t stay young and beautiful. Making decisions around such temporary things is unwise and will nearly always induce regret. What makes my marriage such a life force is the laughter and humour we share, shared experiences, ability to laugh at ourselves, physical (non sexual) affection, our devotion to family and each other, our shared traumas and pain (like our pain and fear since October in taking care of our 17yo who has a brain stem tumour), the conversation, a shared devotion to our Catholic faith, and being united through the binding sacrament of marriage.

 

[24hrs]

Thank you for this.
I think it is safe to assume that my friend does not desire to take away from her husband’s masculinity, and she has not said anything yet due to not wanting to cause hurt, either to spouse or children disrupting unity. If she went down the open and honest path i know it would mean a catholic professional or priest because at this stage she does not want to tell her husband anyway saying ‘it would not change anything or be helpful’. She is airing her hurt, not saying that she knows how to tackle things.
If she cared less or was selfish in the way that some imply, i don’t believe there would be such internal conflict. But there is. Like a trauma from what i see.
Maybe if she wasn’t sure at the beginning of this journey, or was too influenced by other factors you might say she did wrong by walking down the isle, but as individuals and it is easy to be the one to complain about forgetting the barn latch when you were not the one who let the horse run away. While she may (or may not) have had wrong motivations it has been some years now that she has lived as a wife. For the most part they are happy but she is also aware that she cannot hide anything from God and this is something troubling her heart.
She thought she was doing the right thing at the time, avoiding what was bad and seeking and being drawn to what was good, and here we are. She is very worried that not feeling anything romantic towards her husband is so serious that she is reevaluating how she entered the marriage in case she was wrong from the start. That is extreme but she feels a lot of pain. At the heart of it, she cares very much about eternal issues and seeks a form of reinforcement or encouragement, which is why i came on here.
The post by NevermoreLenore give hope that if you want goodness and unity that God will grant such requests.
I have been amazed at the negative comments of people automatically assuming that my friend was looking for an out or that she wanted someone to say she was simply ok to walk away, that is wrong. Maybe i needed to emphasise that she was/is worried about the true status of her marriage if she felt differently at the time of marriage (the hesitancy, doubting and primarily the lack of physical chemistry) because they were not converted then, at least not catholic, she practiced a different Protestant faith.
I think she thought that further feelings would form after marriage because she says that she didn’t want to focus too much on the physical, i get the feeling that’s because of the past situation with losing focus and falling into sin with said ex. She had made the mistake of letting her emotions and ‘heart’ lead her too much so the next time she was determined to be different.
The main thing that worries me is that she did have doubts, however small, meaning her heart perhaps still hadn’t healed from her previous situation but for whatever reason she felt she had to override that. I don’t know all the details, but i do know that she was basically working on her own, that she did not have good or wiser guidance of family, elders or older women she could lean on.

 

[MNathaniel]

If she cared less or was selfish in the way that some imply

no one has implied this

I have been amazed at the negative comments of people automatically assuming that my friend was looking for an out or that she wanted someone to say she was simply ok to walk away, that is wrong.

No one has been negative, but you said your friend was asking your thoughts about whether her marriage might be technically invalid, and you said she felt “hopeless” and unable to keep “[going] long-term through the motions”.

Asking about potential invalidity, and expressing hopelessness about long-term continuance in the motions of marital life, makes it sound like a question about annulment potentiality, which a lot of people do come to this site asking about.

Thank you for clarifying that you don’t think you’re friend is considering this. I’m only mentioning the above so that next time you might receive responses closer to what you’re looking for, by adjusting your own framing of the situation.