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Della
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Just toss them out.
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Eliza10
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There is no Cardinal Ratzinger anymore.
Here is an answer to that:
bardstown.com/~brchrys/DnlkEWTN.htm
Scroll down past the Bill Bilton post to hear the response of the Bishop.
And there is lots more “contray” if you want to look around that website where it is linked.
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Eliza10
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Please don’t trash them! Send them to me! I’d keep lending mine out and I really want them here. I can have a lending stack instead.
They aren’t on the Index. There is no index. Its no longer. The priests and bishops and nuns who promote and support the books are not in schism.
So read them if you want. If you are afraid of not understanding whats expected of you I do understand. You don’t need them. They are only a precious extra gift.
And please consider this, as, you are being misled by people telling you they can’t be read. It was pointed out to me on the other thread of this topic:
One of the greatest advocates of Maria Valtorta’s writings is the Blessed Gabriel Allegra, who is the ONLY Scripture scholar beatified by John Paul II.
Now why would John Paul II beatify a scritpure scholar who is a promoter of forbidden writings who claims the alleged forbidden books they are in line with scripture Church teaching???
So, you see, common sense tells you these can’t possibly be banned.
So you can read them, if you want.
If not, please send them to me! :yup:
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bear06
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Sorry Eliza. The then Cardinal Ratzinger trumps the Bishop of Nyssa.
It’s quite clear that we’re not going to agree on this issue but since you want to keep arguing, here’s some more reading on the “Poem”.
jloughnan.tripod.com/valtmedj.htm
sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id81.html
ewtn.com/expert/answers/poem_of_the_man.htm
catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3365
envoymagazine.com/backissues/4.4/question.htm
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Adonis33
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Very interesting.Thank you for the links.
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Eliza10
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The Bishop is referring to a more recent letter by Radzinger. But you are ignoring:And doesn’t a pope trump a cardinal?
One of the greatest advocates of Maria Valtorta’s writings is the Blessed Gabriel Allegra, who is the ONLY Scripture scholar beatified by John Paul II. ]
And doesn’t a pope trump a cardinal?
I have read it all. Most of it quotes each other. They use the same tired, already answered stuff you used. Bishop Danylak answers it in that link I gave.
But I am not giving the link again. Its already here once. There is an 8 page link in this forum that has the links you gave, and they are given there over, and over again. Thats because the refutations of the Poem are slim pickings, so the what links there are all quote each other. The links on that thread are given or quoted from as “final proof!”, and then when they are refuted, in answer, they are just posted again (as “the end of the matter!”). Thats makes for a long thread and there is not reason to do that to this one too.
I have read it myself, carefully and with faith. That is what persuades me the most.
And it does help to have the support of John Haffert, as well as Pope John Paul II, and our Blessed Gabriel Allegra.
There are lots of other eminent experts behind it on the homepage of the link I gave, but I don’t have time to read it all. I’d rather read The Poem.
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adrift
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When Maria Valtorta wrote this of Mary it was suppose to be at the time of the birth. That is why I said at the time that Mary supposedly uttered the words Jesus was just born and it would have been forgein to her. It is obvious to me that Maria made it up that it was common for her and it never entered her head that it would not have been. She probably was unaware that Jews do not say the word God.
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adrift
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Good idea you do not want this error spread.Just toss them out.
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bear06
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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And even if he is ever canonized that does not mean that his life was free of error. Saints are not infallible.
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Immaculata
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I respect the scholarship of Fr. Mitch Pacwa SJ so I’ll pass on his assessment:
“Maria Valtorta’s multi-volume life of Jesus flirts with heresy and exhibits bad taste. Its claims to authenticity have been rejected by Rome…“Poem” purports to fill in the details of Jesus’ life left blank by the four Gospels. Such narratives have been produced since the second century A.D. Some were written by gnostic heretics. Some by New Agers and occultists. And some were produced by pious Christians who made up stories about Jesus to edify readers and listeners…Valtorta claimed that she was the ‘secretary’ of Jesus and Mary, and was setting down the divinely inspired truth about Jesus’ life. The Church has rejected this claim…”
“the long speeches of Jesus and Mary”…“Jesus sounds ‘like a chatterbox…’…Some of the passages are rather risque,’ like the ‘immodest’ dance before Pilate (Vol. 5, p.73). There are many historical, geographical and other blunders. ‘For instance, Jesus uses screwdrivers (Vol. 1, pp.195, 223), centuries before screws existed.’ There are theological errors, as when ‘Jesus says’ (Vol. 1, p.30) that Eve’s temptation consisted in arousing her flesh, as the serpent sensuously ‘caressed’ her. While she ‘began to sin by herself,’ she ‘accomplished it with her companion.’ Sun Myung Moon and Maria Valtorta may claim the first sin was sexual, but Scripture does not.”
Vol. 1, p.7, oddly claims, ‘Mary can be called the ‘second-born’ of the Father…’, [and] Vol. 4, p.240) Mary will ‘be second to Peter with regard to ecclesiastical hierarchy…’ Our Lady surpasses St Peter’s holiness, but she is not in the hierarchy, let alone second to St Peter."
“Finally, ‘Poem’ is condemned for reasons of disobedience. Competent Church authority had prohibited the printing of Valtorta’s work…Though many people claim that ‘Poem’ helps their faith or their return to reading Scripture, they are still being disobedient to the Church’s decisions regarding reading ‘Poem’. How can such disregard for Church authority and wisdom be a help in renewing the Church in these difficult times?”
“Maria Valtorta’s multi-volume life of Jesus flirts with heresy and exhibits bad taste. Its claims to authenticity have been rejected by Rome…“Poem” purports to fill in the details of Jesus’ life left blank by the four Gospels. Such narratives have been produced since the second century A.D. Some were written by gnostic heretics. Some by New Agers and occultists. And some were produced by pious Christians who made up stories about Jesus to edify readers and listeners…Valtorta claimed that she was the ‘secretary’ of Jesus and Mary, and was setting down the divinely inspired truth about Jesus’ life. The Church has rejected this claim…”
“the long speeches of Jesus and Mary”…“Jesus sounds ‘like a chatterbox…’…Some of the passages are rather risque,’ like the ‘immodest’ dance before Pilate (Vol. 5, p.73). There are many historical, geographical and other blunders. ‘For instance, Jesus uses screwdrivers (Vol. 1, pp.195, 223), centuries before screws existed.’ There are theological errors, as when ‘Jesus says’ (Vol. 1, p.30) that Eve’s temptation consisted in arousing her flesh, as the serpent sensuously ‘caressed’ her. While she ‘began to sin by herself,’ she ‘accomplished it with her companion.’ Sun Myung Moon and Maria Valtorta may claim the first sin was sexual, but Scripture does not.”
Vol. 1, p.7, oddly claims, ‘Mary can be called the ‘second-born’ of the Father…’, [and] Vol. 4, p.240) Mary will ‘be second to Peter with regard to ecclesiastical hierarchy…’ Our Lady surpasses St Peter’s holiness, but she is not in the hierarchy, let alone second to St Peter."
“Finally, ‘Poem’ is condemned for reasons of disobedience. Competent Church authority had prohibited the printing of Valtorta’s work…Though many people claim that ‘Poem’ helps their faith or their return to reading Scripture, they are still being disobedient to the Church’s decisions regarding reading ‘Poem’. How can such disregard for Church authority and wisdom be a help in renewing the Church in these difficult times?”
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bear06
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So true but I’d tend to look pay a little more attention to their writings, theories, etc. Even Aquinas was off about a few scientific things.
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Eliza10
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I respect Father Mitch Pacwa very much and I see him as an authority on many matters. I especially like what he wrote about the New Age as he dabbled in it himself. But he did not read Poem of the Man God , and I do not respect the quotes he has chosen to use against it, which have been refuted convincingly elsewhere.
Father Mitch Pacwa does not have the authority or training of a Bishop, and his expertise and training and esteem are nowhere near that of Blessed Gabriel Allegra, who was a very openly strong advocate of Valtorta’s writings, and was recognized as an expert in scriture by Pope John Paul II himself. Father Allegra studied Valtorta’s writings in the original thoroughly, and he said they are true to the Chruch and to Scripture.
I respect Father Pacwa but due to the conflict and having to pick, even though Father Pacwa is a recognizable favorite to us Americans, Father Allegra is clearly the better pick as far as expertise and authority.
Neither he nor Pacwa is a person free of errors, but Allegra is speaking from an area he was elevated to Blessed for. Father Pacwa probably will never be elevated for understanding the rulings of the Vatican on obscure topics (like: how valid are Vatican rulings concerning the now defunct condemned book list?)
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Eliza10
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True, but understanding scripture was and area he was cannonized for. His support of Valtorta was not a small matter in his life that could have been overlooked. And of it he said:
"I do not believe [even] a genius could thus accomplish [this] Gospel narration: the Finger of God is here!"
Here are more of Father Allegro’s written words concerning the writings. From this man whose opinion Pope John Paul II held so highly:
Certain of the Lord’s discourses, whose principle subject is only hinted at in the Gospels, are developed in this Work with a naturalness, with a linking of thought so logical, so spontaneous, so coherent with the time, the place and the circumstances, as I have never found in the most famous exegetes…"
** “In this Work I find so many ‘revelations’ which are not contrary to, but which instead complete the Gospel narrative…”**
** “Regarding Valtorta’s exegesis, it would be necessary to write a book; here I limit myself to reaffirming that I find no other works of eminent scripture exegetes which complete and clarify the Canonical Gospels so naturally, so spontaneously, with such liveliness as does The Poem of Valtorta.”**
** “What amazes me more is that Valtorta never falls into theological errors; on the contrary, she renders revealed mysteries easier for the reader, transposing them into a popular and modern language.”**
** “After the Gospels, I do not know another life of Jesus that can compare to the Poem, as I do not know any other lives of St. Peter and St. John which make the characters of these two Apostles so alive.”**
"Worthy of note is the manner in which Jesus explains the Old Testament, applying it always to the present, to the messianic era already in progress, and which is about to be fulfilled."
And I so very much agree with his assessemnt of what is written of the mother of Judas Iscariot:
"In her tragic destiny, a powerful and moving figure in the Poem is Mary of Simon, the mother of Judas, and who was so loved by Jesus. No poet or dramatist has ever thought up a profile so robust, so delicate and at the same time so pitiful, as that unfortunate and gentle woman."
Yes, what a woman! Her story is so movingly told.
And i agree wholeheartedly with this conclusions of Father Allegro:
** "I hold that the Work demands a supernatural origin… …] Now, without anticipating the judgment of the Church which to this moment I accept with absolute submission, I permit myself to affirm that, … with the* Poem* producing good fruits in an ever increasing number of persons, I think that it comes from the Spirit of Jesus.**
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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And pray tell what training does a Bishop get? Nothing, they are picked from the rank and file priests. There is no special training for a bishop.
Saints are not canonized for knowledge.
So you dismiss Father Pacwa but expect us to take this priest’s words?
I think it speaks volumes that this work is on the Index of Prohibited Books and it appears that the current pope isn’t all to warm about this work either.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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He was also wrong in his opinion of the Carmelites.
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Adonis33
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Didn’t St. Thomas Aquinas disbelieve in the Imaculate Conception?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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This is off topic.
It appears that he may have but it did not matter because at that time it was not a dogma and Catholics were free to believe or disbelieve.
I am sure that if he was alive when the Immaculate Conception was proclaimed by the Pope that he would have modified his belief on the matter.
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Eliza10
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No, but Blessed Father Allegra was a scripture scholar, named Blessed by Pope John Paul II, and was known for his scripture scholarship and theology. And he said of Valtorta’s exegesis (which means scripture interpretation):
"Regarding Valtorta’s exegesis, it would be necessary to write a book; here I limit myself to reaffirming that I find no other works of eminent scripture exegetes which complete and clarify the Canonical Gospels so naturally, so spontaneously, with such liveliness as does The Poem of Valtorta."
You must not have read that.
I love Father Pacwa and I am *not *dismissing him.
The two priests have two opposing opinions. One is an expert, and one is not. I think I gave very clear reasoning on why I would choose ones words over the other. Can you find fault with my reasoning?
Did you read my reasoning? I get the feeling you are just throwing out quick gut reactions, and quick judgments. I am sure you did not ask that question following reading about Blessed Father Allegro. I provided a link.
I do understand that the emotional gut response is to go with Father Pacwa becasue he is familiar to us and loved. But I don’t he is the reasoned choice in this matter.
The now defunct list, you mean? Read the link I provided, because Bishop Danylak says the current Pope’s most recent words are in favor of Valtota’s works. He is a good and holy man and there is no reason to think he is lying.
Its hard to have an intelligent discussion in a thread if people aren’t reading what’s in the thread.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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How very charitable of you to say this, but I agree with you on that.
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