Poem of the Man-God

[Eliza10]

It is important to remember that in 1978, a Polish cardinal petitioned the Vatican to cease the suppression of Sister Maria Faustina Kowalska’s Divine Mercy devotion and to remove her writings from the Index of Forbidden books. The Vatican replied in the negative, upholding the condemnation and suppression. Which we now know was in error."

I will certainly remember this. This is one of the most enlightening things I have learned on this thread. I have certainly learned more on this thread than past others on the topic. I defended Poem of the Man-God on another thread, to the best of my ability at that time. I defended it because I hear God’s voice in it, and because it was, to me, certainly a gift of the Holy Spirit when it came into my hands, a great balm and comfort in a time of need. And it seemed wrong to ignore a direct gift of God to me, and be easily swayed by the logic of men over His guidance. I did and still do listen closely to the arguments here, because if I am in the wrong then I wish to be swayed. I know if its wrong God will show me clearly. It is like when I converted to Catholic. I was so absolutely sure the Catholic Church was wrong, and, if I just listened long enough and dug hard enough, I would uncover a turth to prove it. But I never did, and here I am!

When I argued on a Poem of the Man-God thread before, I leaned mostly on my inner sense of truth, and trust in the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth. And that means there is a lot of reason involved. The Holy Spirit does not teach a truth that goes against basic logic.

And an amazing truth came to light in this thread. If Sister Maria Faustina’s Divine Mercy devotion was on the list of Forbidden Books - then that sheds a whole new light on that old Index! Certainly there must have been undesirables and untrues on the List, but we know definatively that blessed work of God was also on the list.

So when people quote and re-quote “The Index still retains its moral force!” I see it in a whole different light. In fact that statement really makes no logical sense.

I don’t know. Maybe people who quote and requote that statement are fascinated with the word “force” in it?

…http://farm1.static.flickr.com/21/34909865_3d5302d2c0.jpg

 

[adrift]

The Church is a skeptic. It has not ruled on the Shroud in either positive or negative opinion. I to have no opinion. I presented only alternate theories. That is not the case with the book it has said it is fiction. I don’t like an untruth especially when it comes to the Church. I realize that everything that is brought up about the book boils down only to the fact that the Church considers it as fiction. As I have said before, it could change but that is an if not fact.

 

[adrift]

Wow - he certainly does not sound fictitious to me.

Does Catholic Encyclopedia does in fact say he is fictitious?? I believe thats what adrift said.

I was going to give links to other sites but it really isn’t germane. It doesn’t matter the Church has ruled that it is fiction.

 

[adrift]

So when people quote and re-quote “The Index still retains its moral force!” I see it in a whole different light. In fact that statement really makes no logical sense.

It does not negate that the Church has said it is not of supernatural origin for the past fifty years.

 

[Eliza10]

I found this on Fish Eaters:

Maria Valtorta keeps perfect track of Jesus, Mary and over 500 additional personalities. None of which are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Jesus is appropriately in Jerusalem and Judea for Passover and Pentecost in all four spring seasons, and at the Tabernacles in all three fall seasons of His ministry. Jesus traverses the land of Palestine from one end to another in at least six cycles (some 4,000 miles), ministering in some 350 named locations, including places in Palestine known only to specialized archaeologists.

The 10,000 pages of Divine Revelation were given by our Lord in completely random succession. Maria records the visions in simple bound school note books, with no corrections, in the random order as they were given. On the surface, the complete work appeared as a well shuffled deck of cards. Towards the end, Jesus provides the proper sequence, the key, which could not be realized until the mammoth task of typing the manuscript was completed, allowing the individual pages to be sequenced in the specified succession. When finally placed in the correct progression, the puzzle materializes into a seamless perfect flowing chronology.

Geologist and Mineralogist Dr. Vittorio Tredici points out how Maria Valtorta described and correctly named several towns and villages that were not even discovered until after her death. David J. Webster posted a landmark 31 page article that fundamentally proves the authenticity of Maria Valtorta’s writings. The “Poem of the Man-God” may be the very first Private Revelation ever to be scientifically proven genuine. David meticulously and methodically examines Maria Valtorta’s strikingly accurate descriptions of first Century Palestine for every piece of topographical evidence. He then compares this evidence with currently known facts that are only now being proven authentic. “Over thirty percent or 79 (all entries marked with * and ) of the 255 geographical sites in Palestine mentioned in the Poem were not listed in the 1939 International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) Atlas. 62 (all) of these 79 were not even listed in the 184 page Macmillan Bible Atlas (MBA) published in 1968. [Maria Valtorta died in 1961] Where did Maria Valtorta get all these names? For a first century eye-witness to include so many obscure and unknown names would, of course, be expected. And most surprising is that these names, obscure and unknown in the 1940’s, are only now being proven authentic. 52 of these 62 have no biblical reference whatever, and 17 of these with no biblical reference have been either indirectly confirmed as authentic by recent “ancient external sources” found in the Macmillan Bible Atlas (1968) or actually listed in the HarperCollins Atlas of the Bible (1989). This makes a total of 29 confirmations since the 1939 ISBE atlas listing. Also among those 62 sites are mentioned the ruins of 6 ancient Palestinian cities some corresponding to the modern consensus on location. In addition, Valtorta’s precise descriptions of the natural topography of Palestine from numerous locations and the information about the outside pagan world of that day, including people, places, customs, Greek and Roman mythology, related in the conversations of that day, are strikingly correct.”

Well, this is simply amazing. Perhaps adrift just can’t wrap her mind around this one, so she ignores it? To me, having read the work, it confirms what I found simply amazing. As I read it the first time, and saw the various dates at the chapter headings, I wondered, how does this all pull together so perfectly, all written at different times. Because it is perfect, all the ever-wending cast of characters who resurface later, a few more evil, most more holy (because whatever one chooses, it grows). It is wonderful to skip through chapters and books just to follow one characters growth - Mary Magdalene, for one, or, Judas Iscariot’s growth towards evil, scattered in early times with some shades of hope he might possibly repent, and the favorite of some, the shepherds, from their angelic vision on the Holy Night, to Jesus discovering them 30 years later, to their comfort of the apostles after Jesus’ death, to Jesus appearing to them after the resurrection. He never forgets His first friends, the shepherds. And they never forget Him - at all costs! But their stories and all the others are woven in a perfect chronilogical tapestry in the books.

But it is Jesus who orders all the randomness, telling Maria, put this chapter after that one, and so forth. And obviously His mind can keep it all in order!

Also, there were so many different towns and descriptions of places, and though I was not familiar with most of the names, after reading, I had a feel for what all these places were like because of Valtorta’s wonderful way of describing. It really did not surprise me, only delight me, when I learned that experts say these places were just so, and Valtorta had no worldly access to know these things!

…http://www.bbc.co.uk/norfolk/funstuff/galleries/images/castle_tapestry_270.jpg

 

[adrift]

Perhaps adrift just can’t wrap her mind around this one, so she ignores it?

I thought better of you to make personnel attacks yet each post today you have done so. The expression is “kill the messenger”

Evidently you haven’t read my post because I did answer it.

 

[adrift]

But it is Jesus who orders all the randomness, telling Maria, put this chapter after that one, and so forth. And obviously His mind can keep it all in order!

Are you now the Church that you can declare that this WAS Jesus and not fiction as what the true teaching of the Church is.

 

[Eliza10]

I was going to give links to other sites but it really isn’t germane. It doesn’t matter the Church has ruled that it is fiction.

The Church is a skeptic. It has not ruled on the Shroud in either positive or negative opinion. I to have no opinion. I presented only alternate theories. That is not the case with the book it has said it is fiction. I don’t like an untruth especially when it comes to the Church. I realize that everything that is brought up about the book boils down only to the fact that the Church considers it as fiction. As I have said before, it could change but that is an if not fact.

Hi adrift! I am reading this thread closely and I am only on page 7 right now. But you are here, so i will respond to you.

Yes, the Church is a skeptic, but, She also respects faith. She is not a harsh Mother who forbids her children all things. She gives a wide berth to private apparations, unless they are teaching untruths - then she comes down hard to protect her children.

When I was new to reading Poem of the Man-God, and hearing my Savior’s voice on its pages, it was very upsetting to me to hear/ read comments like yours, here: “the Church considers it as fiction”. I am grateful that I had the faith to listen to the Voice inside me that said, “Wait, see, I will lead you into all truth. Trust. Have faith.” So to comments like yours, I could only know in my heart did not sound true, and wait for God to show me the truth.

Now, I think the facts are here on this thread. While some well-connected and otherwise good or reputable Catholics say that it is “fiction”, there are many (more, it seems to me) very connected and esteemed Catholics - Priests, Venerables, Theologians, Bishops and Cardinals and even one a who spoke of it while being Pope - who say it is inspired and worthy.

So as good Catholics, it is clear we must either listen to God speaking to our hearts in the matter, or, to the best of our ability, pick a Catholic authority we want to trust.

Your conscience and the authorities you choose tell you to steer clear. I respect that. I only hope that you can respect the conscience of those that tells them otherwise, and those who have just as excellent Catholic authority (in my opinion, more expert) to back them up, telling them they have the freedom to believe this private revelation.

http://jesus8880.com/chapters/jn21-preview/images-jn21-art/jesus_shepherd_200h.jpg

 

[adrift]

Now, I think the facts are here on this thread. While some well-connected and otherwise good or reputable Catholics say that it is “fiction”, there are many (more, it seems to me) very connected and esteemed Catholics - Priests, Venerables, Theologians, Bishops and Cardinals and even one a who spoke of it while being Pope - who say it is inspired and worthy.

None of these people have said that it is inspired. The Official teaching it that the source is not supernatural. It just isn’t reputable Catholics it is the teaching of the Church. What you are mixing up is believing an imprimatur as meaning that it verifies that it is supernatural. It does not.
You say you are still reading so you haven’t come on those post yet.

The Bishop of where she lived or the Pope would have to rule on it as being worthy of belief neither one has done so. It has not had that ruling for the entire time it has been around.
This site gives the status of apparitions

1916 - 1953 Caserta, Italy Maria Valtorta (Poem of the Man-God) Church Disapproval

 

[Eliza10]

It does not negate that the Church has said it is not of supernatural origin for the past fifty years.

True, I was only speaking to the people who like to requote: “The Index still retains its moral force.” I am taking these arguements one at a time. The argument that it used to be on the Forbidden list and we have some moral obligation to adhere to the abolished list is a dead argument to me now.

Now, your statement here that Our Church has said for 50 years that it is not of supernatural origin is a statement I will remain open to entertaining yet. Perhaps Insight has a comment, or has already commented on that, and I missed it?

The point you make is one I do not have the authority to refute but I can not definitively say someone else has not authoitatively done so.

All I know is my heart tells me its of God. So what my heart tells me and what you say the Church says don’t match. The place where God speaks to my heart is very precious, therefore I await more information.

My experience with our Holy Mother Church is that She is a perfect teacher, and She gives reasons that make sense. I await that perfect teaching. Because I have always been able to count on it!

…http://oneyearbibleimages.com/holy_spirit1.jpg

 

[Eliza10]

I thought better of you to make personnel attacks yet each post today you have done so. The expression is “kill the messenger”

Evidently you haven’t read my post because I did answer it.

Adrift, i am so sorry. I did not mean to make a personal attack. Honestly! Clearly, we have different opposing beliefs on the matter of this work, and I really mean to be arguing beliefs, not persons!

I can see how that sounded insulting and I am sorry. But I myself can’t wrap my mind around a lot of things! It may be that the matter is too confusing, or its something I’m not open to at the moment - who can be open to all things at all times - or it may be something that I am just not interested in and I am not wanting to apply my mind to something that disinterests me. (discussions on evolution with die-hard evolutionists is one thing I never seem to be able to wrap my mind around because of disinterest and distain with the subject). Or maybe I am tired at the moment! You see? I did not mean to imply your mind was particularly limited*. All* our minds are limited at times for perfectly good reasons.

It makes sense to me that if you did not read the work and see it as fiction, and believe the Church does not want you to read it, that you would be disinterested, and not want to analyze comments about the ordering of the chapters and the findings of archeological experts about the names and geography of the towns. There is such a thing as too much information, and perhaps you just weren’t intersested or drawn to the information Insight posted here on the above matters.

That is what I was thinking when I said “perhaps adrift can’t wrap her mind around it.” Only now that I write it, I do see how it sounds insulting. Please know that I did not mean it that way.

Did it seem like I made personal attacks in other places?? Tell me. I didn’t mean to. I am addressing you a lot because we hold opposing views.

P.S. Also you did say answered this and it must be in my unread posts that come after page 7.

…http://www.mythfolklore.net/bibgreek/images/gallery/botticelli_mag_100.jpg

 

[revelations]

This is all very personal stuff. It is easy to see why people are getting so worked up about it. I had a very tough time at the beginning of my journey, i felt very alone and scared and didn’t know what to believe in anymore because it seemed for everything there were some people who were for it and others who were militantly against it. I even stopped praying the divine mercy because i read somewhere it was based on satanic visions!

I’ve since come a long way, through prayer, and since being confirmed this past vigil. I know much better. I know truth when i read it, and can walk on my own two feet with the Lord through the mine field. Here is my take on all of this.

Private revelation is exactly that, PRIVATE. Every person’s journey is completely different from the next, and everyone needs something different to inspire them to be closer to God. For some, simply looking at the image of a crucifix can help them to meditate on the gruesome passion of our Lord. Some say images are intrisically evil, i disagree. Others need to chant prayers, or recite all the psalms, or pray the rosary. And of course, others need to read descriptive texts of the lives of Jesus, and the characters. I see this as another form of coming closer to Christ.

The DANGEROUS part is when one starts accepting all things with open arms and without question. If it has a nihil obstat then it is free from doctrinal error. To me that means it can be safely used for meditations, reflections, prayer times, without risk of being led astray from the true deposit of faith. When reading these things, take them lightly. They aren’t the gospel. They are not part of the deposit of the faith. They are not guaranteed as wholesale 100% pure fact, as the gospel guarantees. What they are are descriptive aids and they can help in the journey, and for some they are very good.

As per the supernatural origins of them, who knows. We will find out on the last day and all truth will be revealed. They aren’t for everybody, just like icons, the rosary, daily eucharist, and serving at mass aren’t for everyone. If they’re not for you, just let them be.

Finally, here is a locution I feel i got in prayer, while i was deeply troubled over topics like this, “trust in my word and hold steadfast to me”. It was passing, but it comforted me and gave me great reflection. I pray it will for you to,

in prayer,

-revelations

 

[adrift]

Adrift, i am so sorry. I did not mean to make a personal attack. Honestly! Clearly, we have different opposing beliefs on the matter of this work, and I really mean to be arguing beliefs, not persons!

Thank you for clarifying. I maybe a little sensitive. Its nice to have kindness. We have opposing views that does not mean we have to attack. I have erased so many things that I thought might be taken as attacks. It is better not to make personnel comments such as I did with you in another thread. I am sorry for it.

If this were promoted just as the contemplation of this woman, I could accept and read more than the couples of chapters I have read.

By the way I had a thought about the hair coloring. Mary appeared in Guadalupe as a Native American. It is possible that a vision could portray Jesus with blond hair and blue eyes without meaning that was truly his coloring but merely a representation of something she was familiar with. I don’t think it is clear but I hope you get what I mean.

 

[Eliza10]

Thanks Revelations for very balanced, inspired, charitable thoughts. God’s peace be with you!

http://www.spiritsite.com/gallery/art/medmar/BotticelliMadonna.JPG

 

[Eliza10]

I am so glad you accept my apology.

If this were promoted just as the contemplation of this woman, I could accept and read more than the couples of chapters I have read. .

Only thing is, Maria valtorta tells her expereince - being bedridden, seing/talking to Jesus, Jesus taking her on visions, telling her to write. Thats what Valtorta says happened to her, and one has to look at it and say she is telling the truth or not. Promoters apparently beleive her, right? But I agree, it would be easier to approach without a lot of hoopla around it.

I have my personal favorite chapters that delight me. One is Jesus speaking to the galley slaves. It is chapter 154, when you scroll down this page (from the publishers website that has 20% online): valtorta.org/BookText/E02_151-160.htm It is interesting, the way the apostles are at first (not wanting Jesus to speak to the “waves”, the way he speaks differently to the Romans (their logical mindset) and of course the beautiful speech to the slaves that no one cares about. But He knows hearts; He was drawn there, He ministered to them. They will never forget!

So that is in my top twenty. Some of my very favorite chapters are not online. But one of my very favorites is The adoration of the shepherds. I love how she phrases: “a group of hairy men of various ages…” I do find her writing style delightful. Definately this one is in my top five!: valtorta.org/first_christmas_defaultpage.asp

Later (not published online), I love Jesus telling of his birth to His Apostles, who are anxious to hear His birth story on his birthday, on the feast of Dedication, or Lights, on the “25th of Chislev” which is December. The newly whitewashed room is full of many many lit candles, lamps, around the room, in the windows, for the celebration, and also evergreen boughs, as this is how they decorated for this feast. I thought with delight when I read this - “Of course our traditions are old - all they way back to Jesus! And of course, He has preserved for us the correct date of His Incarnation!”

But, if you don’t want to read those link, I will not at all be offended. I do not want to offend your sensibilities, and you don’t think its inspired. But even as fiction, I think its beautiful and has much to teach. I think you will say, “Well, at least its not *bad *fiction!”

By the way I had a thought about the hair coloring. Mary appeared in Guadalupe as a Native American. It is possible that a vision could portray Jesus with blond hair and blue eyes without meaning that was truly his coloring but merely a representation of something she was familiar with. I don’t think it is clear but I hope you get what I mean.

I have thought much of hair coloring too. In Valtorta, it is blond also for Mary, as Jesus. But in Guadelupe, drawn by the angels, it certainly appears dark, as does Mary appear to the visionaries at Medjugorjea (this same Mary who says the Poem books are all true!). And at Akita, our lady is Asian, and in Africa, is she not dark skinned? So, I think what you say about representation here, there is something to it.

So in my mind, I tend to blond, but, I think that if she were to appear to me in any other color I should certainly recognize her, and whatever hair color she had it would not be a distraction to me!

http://www.spiritsite.com/gallery/art/medmar/BotticelliMadonna.JPG

 

[Brian_Reeves]

In the end what govens for me is what, through prayer, and I mean hours rather than a quick five minutes, Jesus says to my spirit. What He has quite clearly said on these books is that it is “the word of God” and that is it. As I read, and we now also use them
for our rosary devotions, I ofen weep and draw so close to Jesus
and Our Lady that I’m almost in another world. I have come to the conclusion that this is what this life is all about, “drawing into a deep, intimate, loving realtionship with our Lord Jesus Christ”, no more no less, and everything pans out from that relationship. And our Lady in Medjugorje shows us how to come in to that relationship and constantly appeals to us to, “pray, pray, pray”.
So lets do just that rather than too much talking !!!
Brian (Reeves)

 

[adrift]

Only thing is, Maria valtorta tells her expereince - being bedridden, seing/talking to Jesus, Jesus taking her on visions, telling her to write. Thats what Valtorta says happened to her, and one has to look at it and say she is telling the truth or not.

There is a third option that is she is telling what she believes is the truth. I don’t believe she lied but I rely on the Church and it has ruled it not supernatural.

 

[Eliza10]

There is a third option that is she is telling what she believes is the truth. I don’t believe she lied but I rely on the Church and it has ruled it not supernatural.

Yes, that third option makes more sense than that she was lying. Some have implied she is crazy, which is more charitable than to say she is lying. Although, to say someone is crazy is a pretty serious judgement.

To me, that’s no, though - I personally do not see any signs of craziness.

As far as the Church ruling its not supernatural, for me the jury is definately out on that. Because I see a conflict between my experience of consience, and what is said here that the Church allegedly. So I ask, did the Church really say this (I know some like Pacwa say She has) and if so what are the ramifications of this statement. For example, did the Church also once say Faustina’s writings were not of supernatural origin??

Insight, what do you say of this? Sorry, you may have already answered it. It has been said that the Church says this is not of supernatural origin. So, what of that?

…http://www.sanctus.com/shop_image/product/3070.jpg

 

[Eliza10]

In the end what govens for me is what, through prayer, and I mean hours rather than a quick five minutes, Jesus says to my spirit. What He has quite clearly said on these books is that it is “the word of God” and that is it. As I read, and we now also use them
for our rosary devotions, I ofen weep and draw so close to Jesus
and Our Lady that I’m almost in another world. I have come to the conclusion that this is what this life is all about, “drawing into a deep, intimate, loving realtionship with our Lord Jesus Christ”, no more no less, and everything pans out from that relationship. And our Lady in Medjugorje shows us how to come in to that relationship and constantly appeals to us to, “pray, pray, pray”.
So lets do just that rather than too much talking !!!
Brian (Reeves)

Wow, thank you Brian for sharing these thoughts. I feel the same souring of spirit when i read Poem of the Man-God. I feel such delight. Sometimes I’ll read a chapter or an incident and it will give me joy all day long, reflecitngon the loving and merciful actions of Jesus.

Yes, Our Lady always urges us to pray! I cannot escape into only reading The Poem, or I lose the joy, because I need to live each day as Christ would have me to live, which cannot be done without praying! So I am forced to keep my reading in balance, pray, and pray, do what I must do that is wise and right, and the readign is my reward.

I feel called lately to much improve my praying - I’ve always known we should strive to be like one of those people who can live and breathe prayer, like Our Lady and Jesus did, and also we have the example of so many Saints. It takes diligence and practice and most of all graces. A Priest Monk pointed out to me during confession the importance of prayer, talking to God constantly, and pointed out to me that thinking about God, as I do far more than praying, is not praying, it is “holy thoughts”. A different thing from praying. So, I am praying for Our lady’s help for that, and have been moved to pray quoting the main lines of this prayer:

Lovely Lady dressed in blue teach me how to pray!
God was just your little boy, tell me what to say!
Did you lift Him up, sometimes, gently on your knee?
Did you sing to Him the way Mother does to me?
Did you hold His hand at night?
Did you ever try telling stories of the world?
O! And did He cry?
Do you really think He cares if I tell Him things-little things that happen?
And do the Angels’ wings make a noise?
And can He hear me if I speak low?
Does He understand me now?
Tell me - for you know?
Lovely Lady dressed in blue teach me how to pray!
God was just your little boy, and you know the way.
Fulton J. Sheen

http://bp0.blogger.com/_KvTBomTnF1o...ASA/aEWPgkR1qDo/s1600/Lovely+Lady+in+Blue.jpg
…

 

[adrift]

To me, that’s no, though - I personally do not see any signs of craziness.

I know people who feel God is talking to them but they are not crazy and not delusional.