Poem of the Man-God

[Eliza10]

Preliminarily, I find it impossible to believe that three such notable Priests and the “Official Vatican Recording Cardinal” would conspire to bear false witness against a sitting Pope. That would be grounds for immediate excommunication. .

Yes, I have always thought it was too summarily dismissed by Valtorta critics like good Fr.Pacwa. No reason to doubt their words is ever given - only reason to believe it’s truth.

Not disobedient, but obedient. The Priests had no choice but to be obedient to the Pope: .

Good point again. I do not think it is fair of Pacwa and others to imply these men were disobedient. They had audience with the Pope. The obeyed his directive. Therefore: obedient, not disobedient.

I don’t know if Cardinal O. was a bad Cardinal, but there is evidence something was wrong there. (where I don’t see evidence there is something wrong with these Priests or that Pope). And we do know that there are and always will be Judas’ among the Apostles of Christ. One must look and listen with discernment. That is why when I hear that Cardinal O. has declared something, it is not automatic case closed to me. I need more info.

…The Article published in L’Osservatore Romano was by an anonymous author. No one every discovered who invented the wording: “A Badly Fictionalized Life of Jesus”.

Yes, this has been a major red flag, telling me this “ruling” is fact. The *anonymous *writer is quoted and requoted by detractors as if he were an authority. Critics all love to quote the phrase “badly fictioanlized life” as if it were a meaningful statement. But its only powerful for the unread! Call it fiction, but you cannot call it bad fiction. That anonymous statement was written in ignorance, and that ignorant statement is oft-repeated.

Oh, my, there is nothing new under the sun!

“The key question: Why did Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani wait till volume four (almost three years later), to act? The Gospel as it was Revealed to Me (The English version; The Poem of the Man-God, came much later), was published in 1956 with Pope Pius XII Imprimatur and statement affixed to the inside cover. This must have made Cardinal Ottaviani livid, but he had no choice but to wait, his hands were tied. Placing the Poem on the Index of Forbidden books would require a Papal signature, which would be impossible to obtain. Pope Pius XII would certainly not sign a decree against His own Imprimatur, and the three Priests were well aware of this. As long as Pope Pius XII was alive, the Poem could be published with the Papal Imprimatur, unchallenged. When Pope Pius XII past away on October 9, 1958, the Lion was finally out of the way. As soon as the next Pontiff, Pope John XXIII, took office, Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani’s first and foremost action was to have Maria Valtorta’s and Sister Maria Faustina Kowalska’s writings formally condemned on the Index of Forbidden Books, (Pope Pius XII would not sign the condemnation of Sister Faustina’s writings). The condemnation decrees could now be placed before the new Pontiff, who signed the decrees at the request of Cardinal Ottaviani. Obviously just taking Office, Pope John XXIII did not have the personal time and luxury of reading Maria Valtorta’s 15,000 pages of Private Revelation and Saint Faustina’s Life works.”

Wow, Insight, this tells a lot!!! The more I hear of this Cardinal O,., the more I don’t trust the character. God forgive me, I could be judging wrong. I only know what I hear, and if these are the facts - and there is no reason to believe they are not, this Cardinal O. strikes me as someone obssessed with his own power. And we know that the papal offices attract not only the holy but also men with lust for power. From these actions, from the responses of other clergy to him - like all the clergy turning their backs on him when he is ranting at them in an address - on more than one occasion - and the shameful proposal he made for dealing with abuses of minors - when he is too intelligent a man to be ignorant of the implications of his words - - all these evidences say that of all the players in this drama, Cardinal O. comes off as one of the worst. We need to pray for his soul. I would not want to face judgement with his life, because those in charge of teaching us are judged more harshly. Unless, God forgive me, I have been given wrong information, then I have judged the situation wrong based on that. But I certainly vote the late Cardinal O. as the player in this drama I’d least like to have lunch with!

There is a major difference between the actions of these two Popes. Pope Pius XII personally examined the writings for 10 months, Pope John XXIII’s signing was a common authorization formality to Cardinal Ottaviani’s final judgment.

An useful key piece of information.

“In 1966, Pope Paul VI took the action of suppressing the Index of Forbidden Books, which liberated the Poem from ecclesiastical restriction. Yes, the same Pope who endorsed “The Virgin Mary In The Writings of Maria Valtorta”. Moreover, when Pope Paul VI was Archbishop of Milan, after evaluating Maria Valtorta’s writings, ordered her entire works to be sent to the Milan Seminary library. Pope Paul VI accomplished three significant actions to remove barriers and promulgate the Poem.”

…http://theambler.com/images/piusxii.jpg

 

[Eliza10]

I know people who feel God is talking to them but they are not crazy and not delusional.

Yes, true, and we can’t really say whats in someone’s heart, right? We can only stand by and judge what we think is so from the info we have.

In the case of Luisa Piccaretta, something was really wrong there. I do believe the Church has ruled that fake. Because some things she said were clearly error. So in her case, I would judge, I believe correctly, that while she may have thought her locutions were of God, they were instead of the liar.

There are other private revelations that with only a little reading one can quickly discern they are fakes. Often there is a lack of humility, and the visionary places him/herself on a pedestal as a messenger of God possessing a unique and different message of God. With some priviledged new information.

…http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/Assumption.jpg

 

[Eliza10]

… A Priest Monk pointed out to me during confession the importance of prayer, of talking to God constantly, and pointed out to me that thinking about God, as I do far more than praying, is not praying, it is “holy thoughts”. A different thing from praying…
…

Quoting myself here… I wanted to add, that while holy thoughts are good, we are constantly exhorted and shown by example in scripture to pray, and, when Mary appears in her apparations, she does not say, “Have holy thoughts! Have holy thouhgts!” She says, “Pray! Pray!”. That is what is most needed.

(I am preaching to myself here).

…http://www.ricksteves.com/images/art/babe_fruit.jpg

 

[adrift]

So I ask, did the Church really say this (I know some like Pacwa say She has) and if so what are the ramifications of this statement. For example, did the Church also once say Faustina’s writings were not of supernatural origin??

Here is some history on Faustina
There was some trouble at first because of poor translations and other things. The Church is sometimes slow to move on these things which is a good thing. As I said, it is possible that there will be a different finding. We live in the today and today it is a negative finding.

Archbishop Dionigi Tettamanzi, in his capacity as Secretary General of the Italian Bishops’ Conference, wrote to the publisher Emilio Pisani to request that 'in the event the volumes are reprinted, it be clearly stated at the outset that the ‘visions’ and ‘dictations’ related therein may not be considered to possess a supernatural origin, but must simply be deemed literary forms of which the author has made use to narrate the life of Jesus in her own way."

 

[adrift]

The article refers Pontius Pilate’s letter to the Emperor Claudius, but doesn’t address the letter to Tiberius Caesar. The Archko dates back to 5BC.

Here’s a link to the fictitious Publius Lentulus, although it would more likely been his son:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Cornelius_Lentulus_Spinther

When I first saw this I thought, it doesn’t date back to 5 BC. It was the 18th century in came into being Today I realized what context this was being used. This document was being used to say how someone was describing how Jesus looked as an adult. Now I know that the priest who devised the calender was off from five to seven years most choose the year 5 BC for his birth.

 

[adrift]

Good point again. I do not think it is fair of Pacwa and others to imply these men were disobedient. They had audience with the Pope. The obeyed his directive. Therefore: obedient, not disobedient.

You are ignoring that one of these priest signed a letter not to publish and did anyway. But this really a moot point.
I

don’t know if Cardinal O. was a bad Cardinal, but there is evidence something was wrong there. (where I don’t see evidence there is something wrong with these Priests or that Pope). And we do know that there are and always will be Judas’ among the Apostles of Christ. One must look and listen with discernment. That is why when I hear that Cardinal O. has declared something, it is not automatic case closed to me. I need more info.

You are ignoring the evidence and I hope that as you read through these post you will realize that this Cardinal is being maligned. I hope you read the document.
The document has been taken out of context.
As a result of these attacks, as evident by your comments, the sin of detraction is present.
People who support this book should not try to make there case better by slandering a dead priest.

Y

es, this has been a major red flag, telling me this “ruling” is fact. The *anonymous *writer is quoted and requoted by detractors as if he were an authority. Critics all love to quote the phrase “badly fictioanlized life” as if it were a meaningful statement. But its only powerful for the unread! Call it fiction, but you cannot call it bad fiction. That anonymous statement was written in ignorance, and that ignorant statement is oft-repeated.

This is really a judgment call. I found it to be very poorly written. I tried to read your recommendation and it was so horrid I couldn’t get through it. You love it. A personal judgment call.

Wow, Insight, this tells a lot!!! The more I hear of this Cardinal O,., the more I don’t trust the character. God forgive me, I could be judging wrong.

It is obvious to me at least that insight posted these things against him in order to discredit him. Doesn’t that give you pause in accepting so blindly?

 

[Insight]

Hi Guys,

 When Eliza jumped in, I decided to back off a little, as not to be in a situation of ganging up.  This is a rare occasion when Valtorta supporters outnumbered those opposed to her works.  I came here from another Catholic forum where I was defending voting Pro-Life, and amazingly, I was outnumbered and getting pummeled.

 Eliza, to answer your questions, In Marian Apparitions, Mary always seems to take the ethnic form of the person she appears to.  Saint Faustina’s writings were condemned.  The condemnations were upheld several times by the Holy Office, and were never formally released.  Since being Beatified and Canonized, the Church has allowed her writings to be read from the pulpit at Divine Mercy Sunday Mass.  The Church should really offer a retraction, as they did with Galileo.  His writings were condemned for placing the Sun at the center of the Solar System.

 I personally believe we can learn an enormous lesson from how the Church dealt with Fatima:

“Witnesses reported that just prior to the Fatima miracle, a Priest attempted to disperse the crowd, declaring it was a hoax. When that failed, he attempted to physically pick up the children and remove them. Again, the crowd prevented him.

The miracle of Fatima was one of the greatest miracles of all time, for several reasons. It was witnessed by nearly 100,000 people, even as far as 32 miles away. All who witnessed it were astonished by the spectacular demonstration of the miracle. Not only did they see the fire of the sun detach itself and fall upon the earth, but they felt the intense heat. The flooded grounds and their soaked clothes from the torrential rain, just prior to the miracle, dried up immediately before their eyes. Some were up to their ankles in mud, then standing upon dry soil. Moreover, it was the only miracle in the history of the world that God performed at a predicted time and place. As the Holy Mother of God explained: “So that all may believe”.

And who believed? The atheist communist tabloids acknowledged it as a miracle by God the very next morning. It took thirteen long years before the Holy Roman Catholic Church acknowledged the Fatima Miracle to be of Divine origin… Previous to that, witnesses reported that Priests that believed and defended the children were transferred far away from the local Parishes. Some witnesses expressed resentment for the years of pulpit reprimands, only to be followed over a dozen years later by a short statement by the Church, that the Apparitions and Miracle were “worthy of belief.” (Fatima: “Meet the Witnesses”, by John M. Haffert).

How badly we behave in response to great miracles, even back to the times when Moses parted the sea. And yet, we incredulous people wonder why there are so few miracles today. “And He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief”’ (Matt 13:58).

Persecution of Holy people, such as Maria Valtorta, dates back to the slaying of Abel, to the condemnation of Christ by the Chief Priests and Pharisees, to the Stoning of Saint Steven, to our present day. Consider how Saul, who was a good Jew, held the coats of those stoning Saint Steven. It is an enigma as to why some good people feel compelled to disparage some of the most wonderful gifts of God, along with those who make these gifts available to us. I’m sure those who condemned Padre Pio and Blessed Sister Faustina felt just as confident they were doing the right thing at the time. The word of God prevails, and at some point in the future, the finger of God in Maria’s writings will be fully recognized.”

Below is a link to audio by John Haffert on Fatima:

001A Fatima.mp3

 

[Eliza10]

You are ignoring that one of these priest signed a letter not to publish and did anyway. But this really a moot point.

Yes, I overlooked this, but then, I say, it is possible that he was forced to sign it under duress. That would morally cancel it. (I have no such information, I am only supposing that possibility).

You are ignoring the evidence and I hope that as you read through these post you will realize that this Cardinal is being maligned. I hope you read the document.
The document has been taken out of context.
As a result of these attacks, as evident by your comments, the sin of detraction is present.
People who support this book should not try to make there case better by slandering a dead priest.

Well these are serious allegations you make and I am sure you are making them in charity.

I do not want to be under the sin of detraction and I am open to being told that is what I am doing. Because I express myself cautiously, concerned I may be in that sin.

In this whole matter I am responding to what I learn with my intuition, and making a judgment, for now not changed - that these books are true and the Church allows me to believe that - while being open to it being dispproved. I know that always in the past when I have had to give up a view, the Church has given me good reason. So that is the path I take, out of my experience of the Lord working in my life - to me directly, and through the Church.

In the past, for almost my entire life, I have given everybody and everything such a wide berth that to even the most evil actions I attributed some probable good root. Overtime I have learned it is not good to suspend all judgement. Sometimes, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it is in fact a duck. I hope that makes sense.

I’ve learned that peoples bad actions might not always be a fluke or a bad day, but in fact may reveal an inner belief system that is flawed.

Of those connected with this work, there was that one Cardinal who kept showing up quite badly. Okay, like addressing a large crowd of clergy, and ranting to the point that the clergy all turn their backs? Twice? My instincts tell me that he may not have just had a bad day, but a character flaw, and/or a serious problem of judgement. (Perhaps mental illness?) (oh - and possibly a highly rightous man sick to death of unrighteousness. But, I saw no other evidence of this. If this was so, surely there’d be some.)

Also, what Insight told about his not acting on the work until Volume 4, immediately after the approving Pope died? Coincidence? Who knows. Maybe. But maybe not. Maybe it is as it looks.

And what I read of what the secular news exposed of his awful document that oppressed and effectively punished victims of clergy crime - the evilness of that makes my heart sink. I can hardly look. Oh, yes, I suppose there is the possbility he did not know the ramifications of his pronouncements. But my personal judgment of his actions is that this is unlikely. He was an intelligent man, and the greater probablity is he knew exactly what his words meant.

So I use the word judgment many times here. I think it is okay and even wise and prudent to judge the actions of a man. I believe I am doing just that. I also suggest, it is possible that these scandalous actions reveal a flawed person. If so and how flawed only God knows. Perhaps he will only serve time in purgatory for ignorant foolishness and not evil. Only God knows his heart.

But I do not think judging bad actions as bad is really the sin of detraction. But, I am happy to be corrected. Let me know if you still think I am in the wrong.

This is really a judgment call. I found it to be very poorly written. I tried to read your recommendation and it was so horrid I couldn’t get through it. You love it. A personal judgment call.

Oh my, this made me laugh! I am not offended. Thank you so much for trying. I re-read the galley slave one today and part of the shepherds, and it made me so happy. I guess this is real proof that “one mans trash is anothers treasure”!

It is obvious to me at least that insight posted these things against him in order to discredit him. Doesn’t that give you pause in accepting so blindly?

I did not have that reaction to his posting it. I thought he was trying to uncover truth. Don’t you think thats possible?

I know I want to know the truth of the matter. I mean, if someone were to expose those incidents (related to that Cardinal) in a different light, telling, for example, that there were many who made up lies to slander this man, and that it was not true that he twice ranted at a congress of clergy, and not true that they all turned their backs on him - I’d really want to know! And etc.

The whole document to protect clergy at the expense of victims makes me sick though. Sigh. While its true the media evilly slanders the Catholic Churuch, the media are not *all *bad people all the time - some expose evil out of a sense of justice. In the case of the scandals, unfortunately, the media had to sometimes be the digging tool to expose things to light that needed to be exposed, in my opinion.

…http://americanart.si.edu/images/1983/1983.90.198_1b.jpg

 

[Eliza10]

Hi Guys,

Clearly you are a Northerner. Ladies in the South would be offended by that one!

When Eliza jumped in, I decided to back off a little, as not to be in a situation of ganging up.

Yes, we need to be kind to adrift. No fun being outnumbered.

… Saint Faustina’s writings were condemned. The condemnations were upheld several times by the Holy Office, and were never formally released. Since being Beatified and Canonized, the Church has allowed her writings to be read from the pulpit at Divine Mercy Sunday Mass. The Church should really offer a retraction, as they did with Galileo.

Interesting that they never have. Maybe they aren’t as stuck on form as we are?

…His writings were condemned for placing the Sun at the center of the Solar System.

And our Church overlooked a perfect teachable moment. That the sun is the Son, and we all of life revolves around the Son.

Scripture says the truth sets you free. It is true in so many ways.

…

I personally believe we can learn an enormous lesson from how the Church dealt with Fatima:

Yes, there is so much to learn from Fatima. I love Fatima! I feel like its “mine” personally, because of the way Our Lady seemed to point it out to me when I was reading so much when converting. It was an old paperback - Image Book’s Wm. Walsh’s Our Lady of Fatima that I was blessed to have come into my hands and read.

…And who believed? The atheist communist tabloids acknowledged it as a miracle by God the very next morning.

Yes, as in Jesus’ day the Israelites were the ones slow to believe.

…http://www.brooklynrail.org/article_image/image/344/2.jpg

 

[Insight]

Hi Eliza,

 The Priests said in their testimony that they were summoned to the Holy Office by Cardinal Ottaviani.  They were forbidden to speak or communicate in any way, and ordered to sign the statement.  They were forced to sign it under duress.  A contract signed in the US under duress is null and void.

“According to the Priest’s testimony in 1949, Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani who then headed the Holy Office, summoned Father Corrado Berti and Father Andrew Cecchin to the Holy Office. Furthermore, during this meeting both Priests were forbidden to speak or communicate in any way immediately before the meeting. Monsignor Pepe and Father Berruti, officials of the Holy Office, were entrusted with reading the new judgment to both Priests (authored by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani), which reversed and undermined the Papal Imprimatur. Monsignor Pepe and Father Berruti had no role in condemnation itself. The order of silence cleverly restricted Father Berti from informing Monsignor Pepe and Father Berruti of the Papal Imprimatur given by Pope Pius XII.”

God Bless

 

[adrift]

I just popped in for a moment not intending to post. I don’t have much time so I hope you forgive the brevity and mistakes that I am bound to make being in a hurry but I could not let this go by without an immediate reply

Well these are serious allegations you make and I am sure you are making them in charity.

I didn’t intend an allegation sorry for the misunderstanding. You are right that I had good intentions.

Gossip is a serious sin and this discussion tends to violate the prohibition against it. Quite unintentionally. We justify it by saying that we are just trying to reach the truth. Only the person posting knows their intention. Those intentions can be questioned and clarified but judgment shouldn’t take place At this point you may think I am talking about you, not entirely. There is no reason to drag in priest and what they did or didn’t do about this poem. As I have done and others also. Different priest depending on which side you support. It isn’t right. It can lead to being unloving to another human being and we do not know who is reading this and being effected by it. So I would suggest that we should keep attacks on everyone out of this discussion. Especially since what was done in the past has no bearing on the validity of the poem. It doesn’t change if it is supernatural or not. So I want to stop throwing mud especially since no good is achieved. We need also to gently remind each other not to fall into this trap that devil sets.

Goodnight.

 

[Insight]

Hi Eliza,

Concerning the Poem, some are able recognize the finger of God, while some have difficulty, or cannot relate at all. Though I never heard the word “horrid” used before. As you stated: “The sheep know the Masters voice.” That is the key to everything. God did not send his Angels to the most wise and learned men to inform the world that the Messiah has been born, but to poor uneducated shepherds. Jesus did not select the Chief Priests, Scribes and Pharisees to be his Disciples, but poor ignorant fishermen. At Fatima, Mary appeared to poor peasant children.

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.” (Matt 11:25)

Recall how Gamaliel struggled in the Poem, only to recognize who Jesus really was at the very end? “But ages and ages of spiritual blindness are upon my interior sight, and against my present will rises the voice of my proud thought of the past. Have mercy on me! Light of the world, let one of Your rays descend on the darkness that did not understand You! I am the old Judaean faithful to what I thought was justice, and it was error. I am now a barren land, no longer with any of the ancient trees of the ancient Faith, without any seed or stalk of the new Faith. I am an arid desert. Work the miracle of making a flower, that has Your name, spring up in this poor heart of an old obstinate Israelite. Since You are the Liberator, come into my poor thought, which is a prisoner of formulas. Isaiah says so: “He paid for sinners and took upon Himself the sins of many”. Oh! Also mine, Jesus Nazarene.”

God Bless

 

[Brian_Reeves]

Hello Eliza 10, having just skimmed through all that has been said since I have been asleep and at church, I think the one very significant point is that you have been called into a deeper prayer life. Is it therefore likely that the Poem of the Man-God" is of Satan if you are being moved in that direction ? No, it can only be of God !!! The same with Medjugorje, how can so many people being experiencing Jesus in a new deep way in their lives if the whole thing is not for real. Obviously Satan sucks us away from Jesus not propels us towards Him. As has been remarked in other places, prayer must become our life blood and not just “pecking” here and there but deep saturation times alone with our Lord !!! God bless you my dear.
Brian.

 

[Eliza10]

Hi Eliza,

The Priests said in their testimony that they were summoned to the Holy Office by Cardinal Ottaviani. They were forbidden to speak or communicate in any way, and ordered to sign the statement. They were forced to sign it under duress. A contract signed in the US under duress is null and void…

Wow. I honestly did not know this when I suggested, “Maybe they signed it under duress.” Where did I get this idea that it could be possible? Well frankly it seemed consistent with the actions of this Cardinal. But I had no idea that its happening was a recorded fact.

As far as US rule on that - I think I have somewhere sometime read of also of our Church making the same “null and void” judgement on things said or signed under duress. I remember now - I think it was concerning the trials around Joan of Arc. Something she said or signed under duress the Church later declared null and void because of that.

Speaking of Joan of Arc! Mark Twains book of this title is the best! One of my all-time favortie books! He researched it intensely for twelve years (Joan being one of the most extensively documented figures in history) and considered it far and above his very best work of which he was most proud.

http://www.oceansbridge.com/paintin...age_1879_XX_Joan_of_Arc_(St._Joan_of_Arc).jpg

 

[adrift]

Wow. I honestly did not know this when I suggested, “Maybe they signed it under duress.” Where did I get this idea that it could be possible? Well frankly it seemed consistent with the actions of this Cardinal. But I had no idea that its happening was a recorded fact.

As far as US rule on that - I think I have somewhere sometime read of also of our Church making the same “null and void” judgement on things said or signed under duress. I remember now - I think it was concerning the trials around Joan of Arc. Something she said or signed under duress the Church later declared null and void because of that.

Speaking of Joan of Arc! Mark Twains book of this title is the best! One of my all-time favortie books! He researched it intensely for twelve years (Joan being one of the most extensively documented figures in history) and considered it far and above his very best work of which he was most proud.

http://www.oceansbridge.com/paintin...age_1879_XX_Joan_of_Arc_(St._Joan_of_Arc).jpg

Duress is not being ordered to do something. Duress is having a gun pointed at your head. He was his superior and as such he was obeying. He could have said no. He chose to sign.

 

[adrift]

The Church should really offer a retraction, as they did with Galileo. His writings were condemned for placing the Sun at the center of the Solar System.

This statement is not entirely accurate.

1. His writings were condemned because he would not list them as a theory. The act of disobedience. That the Sun was the center had been proposed some years before and accepted. Protestants often misrepresent this in order to attack the Church.
2. It was the faulty translation condemned so no apology would be needed.

 

[Eliza10]

I just popped in for a moment not intending to post. I don’t have much time…

I normally do not have so much time to post! Work week approaches and then weekend plans and I won’t have so much time.

…
I didn’t intend an allegation sorry for the misunderstanding. You are right that I had good intentions…

Of course, I know you didn’t mean to accuse. I shouldn’t have said allegations. I appreciate your standing up for what is right and I do not mind discussing the topic of gossip.

…Gossip is a serious sin and this discussion tends to violate the prohibition against it. Quite unintentionally. We justify it by saying that we are just trying to reach the truth. …

I truly appreciate the warning, but I do not feel this is gossip. You see I have no intention of slandering someone, and I am not talking about these things for my entertainment or delight. It really is a matter of getting at the truth.

If someone publically takes an action, especially someone in authority, then those are public actions and its not gossip to discuss the actions or analyze the meaning or the implications of those actions.

… Only the person posting knows their intention. Those intentions can be questioned and clarified but judgment shouldn’t take place…

Yes because we cannot judge the heart. But I do not think it is wrong to speculate about what might be the intentions. Because one must see some reason to things that make no sense. One can guess, but can’t ultimately really know, so cannot judge ultimately.

…There is no reason to drag in priest and what they did or didn’t do about this poem. As I have done and others also. Different priest depending on which side you support. It isn’t right…

I so appreciate your sentiment - your desire to do what is right. I hope you don’t take offense to my saying that I do think that this discussion is about fact-finding and not gossip. Thast is certainly the intention - we can slip and we should correct ourselves when we do! An example of fact-finding is the recent discussion of the two priests who signed under duress. These priest were accused in many websites as being disobedient - publishing when they said they wouldn’t. Now that is a judgment. I say, lets not judge them, lets get some facts - its always a possiblity they signed under duress. Now the facts come out, and they have said as much. And they don’t seem to be lying to me. So the whole exchange, to me, is not gossip, but fact-finding about public events.

It can lead to being unloving to another human being and we do not know who is reading this and being affected by it. So I would suggest that we should keep attacks on everyone out of this discussion…

These are good reasons not to gossip and particularly not attack. I think people here are being careful not to attack, but you can never be too careful. When you are passionate about a topic, you can slip.

… So I want to stop throwing mud especially since no good is achieved. We need also to gently remind each other not to fall into this trap that devil sets.

Its a good point to make!

…http://library.georgetown.edu/dept/speccoll/guac/edwards_03/edwards_botticelli_madonna_1902.jpg

 

[Eliza10]

Hello Eliza 10, having just skimmed through all that has been said since I have been asleep and at church, I think the one very significant point is that you have been called into a deeper prayer life… it can only be of God !!! …

Well I won’t take credit for the fruit yet - you know the road to hell is paved with good intentions! But seriously this is my intention and I am trying, and praying for graces to stick with my intention.

The same with Medjugorje, how can so many people be experiencing Jesus in a new deep way in their lives if the whole thing is not for real. …

Medjugorje is not a topic they want to discuss on this forum much (on account of controversy over approval), so we will just mention it and not discuss it. I want to mention to you that I just recently read the Medj. account of a borderline atheist BBC newswoman and I was impressed. She put it all in a historical perspective which made for slow reading (for me) but it was interesting and informative. I read it to satisfy a decision I once made to learn about Medj. someday, after meeting a very devout professional couple whose lives did a u-turn for Christ after going there.

As has been remarked in other places, prayer must become our life blood and not just “pecking” here and there but deep saturation times alone with our Lord !!! …

Yes, this is so true. And it is such a call to be completely different than the world.

God bless you my dear.
Brian.

God bless you too, friend in Christ! Eliza10

…http://imagesource.allposters.com/images/pic/NIM/AR036~Madonna-and-Child-Posters.jpg

 

[Eliza10]

Duress is not being ordered to do something. Duress is having a gun pointed at your head. He was his superior and as such he was obeying. He could have said no. He chose to sign.

I cannot agree with you on this one. Duress can be many things, one of which is, as you say, having a gun pointed at your head. But it can take many forms. Threat of excommunication is one possiblity in this case, and not a far-fetched guess, as, the same cardinal under quesiton also wrote an official doument calling for the excommunication of innocent victims of clergy if they dared speak of the crime perpetrated against them.

But I personally do not need to know exactly what form of coersion was used - it is enough for me to take their word for it.

…http://www.ricksteves.com/images/art/babe_fruit.jpg

 

[Eliza10]

Hi Insight, My whole view towards Poem of the Man-God is that it is undeserved gift, gift, gift - a grace for which I am grateful!

…Recall how Gamaliel struggled in the Poem, only to recognize who Jesus really was at the very end? …

I love to follow Gamaliels story! Love it, love it! I ahve a Jewish friend, who I see only these days infrequently, and I have often thought about sharing parts of it with her. Her heritage is evident in they way her people are talked of in Poem. She’s very intelligent - can’t get anything past her. Similar to Gamaliel - intelligent and just. I have mentioned the work and in the right time and context I will share parts of it with her. Especially the parts about the Temple or things that show evidence of Jewish customs, I think she would be interested in. But a part of our friendship is respect, including an unspoken respect that I do not try to convert her. So I have to be sure I am sharing it for her enjoyment, not because I am trying to convert her.

…http://www.jesus-passion.com/AgonyInGarden.jpg