Poem of the Man-God

[Insight]

I would tend to think that the Papal Order to publish as witnessed by three highly notable Priests (one being the Dean of a Marian Pontifical University in Rome, another an Advisor to the Vatican Council), which was validated by Cardinal Gagnon (who served as Peritus during the second Vatican Council, that is the Expert Theologian Advisor and Consultant. He had a Doctorate in Theology and taught Canon law for ten years at the Grand Seminary) would supercede Father Groeschel comments.

 So would an endorsement by Pope Paul VI for a book supporting Maria Valtorta’s writings, not to mention that the author of the book was also called one of the greatest Mariologist that ever lived by Pope John Paul II.  That’s three Popes.

 The Code of Canon Law - Book II, Part II, Section I, Chapter I, Article I - gives the Pope full and supreme power over all levels of the Church and free use to exercise this power.  The Papal order came first.  Canon law prohibits this Papal order from being reversed by subordinate levels of Church authority.  Canon law clearly requires that this Papal order be embraced with unconditional acceptance and submission.

 First Vatican Council, Session IV, Chp. IV, p.IX - "So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema."

God Bless

 

[Joysong]

Insight,

It is your personal right to believe this is the greatest work of Catholicism since the New Testament. Your error lies in insidiously promoting it as though it were supernatural Truth, by falsely attaching statements of popes to validate your views. Surely you realize that no Catholic is bound to believe ANY private revelation whatsoever.

The document that is purported to be from Pope Paul VI does not appear to be anything whatsoever of an endorsement. Everything is written in the third person tense, as though by another, and there is no papal signature, but that of a representative. It merely grants a blessing for the work that was undertaken in a spirit of piety and zeal, and is neither an endorsement nor an imprimatur. I note particularly that this was dated 1974 prior to Card. Ratzinger’s statement in 1993.

As is your previous and customary practice, older documents are cited with your famous anathema, as though nothing in current Church teaching is capable of abrogating a previous statement. This is entirely false, and I have neither the time nor the desire to rebut you. It is a devious tactic to pull a papal document completely out of context to support your idea.

The Papal order came first. Canon law prohibits this Papal order from being reversed by subordinate levels of Church authority. Canon law clearly requires that this Papal order be embraced with unconditional acceptance and submission.

There is no Papal “order” whatsoever. Again, you are spinning Canon law to suggest that a “comment” by a pope carries the full weight of an encyclical or papal bull. Personal comments made by a pope that are not official teaching documents do not require submission. It is unworthy of you to even suggest this.

You and banned member Love4Jesus2 are quite complementary in your links to John Haffert. Coincidence, huh?

 

[Insight]

The signed testimony of one Priest is available online, the other two are in glass cases at The Basilica of the Annunciation in Italy, where Maria Valtorta is buried at the altar.

exdeo.com/brC/berti/index.php
&
bardstown.com/%7Ebrchrys/Corberti.htm

John Haffert is the founder of the Blue Army of Fatima, which achieved of 25 million signed members sworn to uphold the Fatima pledge. It is common knowledge that the short book “That Wonderful Poem” is among 25 books that John Haffert wrote. In the book he explains how the Bishop of Fatima introduced him to the Poem.

valtorta.alphalink.com.au/POEM.HTM

God Bless

 

[Joysong]

None of your attempts to validate your seer’s words has any bearing on the fact that this is a matter of private revelation and it is not required of the faithful to put any personal belief in the textual presentations set forth in her book. Father Groeschel has researched Maria’s schizophrenia during her later life, and it seems highly probable that, although she was deeply sincere in what she believed, she was sincerely full of “pseudo-religiosity,” to quote Father G.'s words.

As I mentioned earlier, you are free to believe whatever you wish about this author, but don’t attempt to lure any of us to believe in this poem as solemn revelation from heaven.

Even if it were true that a work is given an imprimatur, the grantor of the imprimatur does not therefore officially validate the author’s interpretations of what they believe to have seen supernaturally. The Church does not pronounce on the content or veracity of these alleged visions in any fashion … period.

Your allegiance to John Haffert does not impress me. I seriously doubt that his opinions take precedence over the Magisterium’s, and it disturbs me that you expect they should. I have no wish to explore any more of your “proofs” since several of your attempts were discovered to be false.

Next?

 

[adrift]

The signed testimony of one Priest is available online, the other two are in glass cases at The Basilica of the Annunciation in Italy, where Maria Valtorta is buried at the altar.

exdeo.com/brC/berti/index.php
&
bardstown.com/%7Ebrchrys/Corberti.htm

John Haffert is the founder of the Blue Army of Fatima, which achieved of 25 million signed members sworn to uphold the Fatima pledge. It is common knowledge that the short book “That Wonderful Poem” is among 25 books that John Haffert wrote. In the book he explains how the Bishop of Fatima introduced him to the Poem.

valtorta.alphalink.com.au/POEM.HTM

God Bless

How does any of this support that it is not a book of fiction.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Rising son

This has all been hashed over. There was no imprimatur given by the Pope. Bishop Roman Danylak verifies this. An imprimatur does not mean that it is approved. Please see post 268.

Adrift,
Whether one uses the term “Imprimatur” or not, the fact that pope Pius XII gave permission to be published is not insignificant. I will grant you that, by itself, this event may not be, as it were, a “slam dunk” argument. However, add this to Pope Paul VI’s favorable support of the Poem, who; 1) had the complete typescripts added to his seminary libary, 2) abolishes the Index just a few years after the Poem was placed on it, 3) abolishes Canon 1385–the legal principle for adding the Poem to the Index, and 4) writes a letter of a appreciation to Fr. Gabriele Roschini, for his book; “The Virgin Mary in the Writings of Maria Valtorta”. (all this is documented here). Then add to this pope John Paul II’s initiating the beatification process for Venerable Fr. Gabriel Allegra, an outspoken supporter of Maria Valtorta and renowned Scripture scholar. Then add to this the favorable support of various Cardinals and Bishops.

No matter what is said nowhere has the Church said that it was not fiction.

Nor has it said that it is fiction, as you claim. You are pitting one statement made by Cardinal Ratzinger–in a private letter–against many forms of favorable evidence from popes, and direct support from various bishops. Remember, at the time Cardinal Ratzinger’s principal source of information was his predecessor, Cardinal Ottaviani, who never even oversaw a proper investigation into the life of the visionary. Maria Valorta was never even questioned at the time, yet one of the criterion for judging alleged apparitions is a “full and proper investigation”. You are resting the blunt of your argument on Cardinal Ratzinger’s statement in a private letter–a statement that was made with incomplete facts at the time.

-Davide

 

[Insight]

Testimonials From Valtorta Publishing

His Holiness Pope Pius XlI, February 26 1948:

“Publish this work as it is. there is no need to give an opinion about its origin, whether it be extraordinary or not. Who reads it, will understand.” The names of the three Servite priests were listed the next day in l’Osservatore Romano as having had the private audience with the pope: Fr. R. Migliorini (Maria’s spiritual director), Fr. C. Berti, professor of Dogmatic and Sacramental Theology at Marianum, Pontifical Faculty of Theology, in Rome, and Fr. A. Cecchin, Prior of the Servites International College.

Archbishop Alfonso Carinci, Secretary of the Congregation of the Sacred Rites (1946):

" There is nothing therein which is contrary to the Gospel. Rather, this work, a good complement to the Gospel, contributes towards a better understanding of its meaning."

Fr. Dreyfus, of the French Biblical and Archeological School, Jerusalem (1986):

“I was greatly impressed on finding in Maria Valtorta’s work the names of at least six or seven towns, which are absent from the Old and New Testaments. These names are known but to a few specialists, and through non-biblical sources… …] Now, how could she have known these names, if not through the revelations she claims that she had?”

John Haffert, author & Founder of The Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima (World Apostolate of Fatima), a Church-approved Catholic Apostolate with millions of members all over the world., (1995):

twoheartsdesign.com/jmh_obit.html

advancedchristianity.com/Pages/Haffert/Haffert_001.htm

“I have the 10 volumes of The Poem of the Men-God in Italian and French. It is the most wonderful work I have ever read and I consider it a blessing of God. I’m in my seventies. And in my entire life, among all the books I’ve read, The Poem of the Man-God is the one that has done me the most good in my spiritual life.”

Msgr. Ugo Lattanzi, dean of the Faculty of Theology of the Lateran Pontifical University, adviser to the Holy Office (1951):

“The author could not have written such an abundant amount of material without being under the influence of a supernatural power.”

Cardinal Agostino Bea, Jesuit, rector of the Pontifical Biblical Institute and advisor to the Holy Office (1952):

“Some years ago [before being named consultant of the Supreme Congregation of the Holy Office], I read several fascicles of the Work written by the lady, Maria Valtorta, attending particularly in my reading to the exegetical, historical, archeological and topographical parts. As far as its exegesis, I did not find any prominent errors in the fascicles examined by me. Further, I had been much impressed by the fact that her archeological and topographical descriptions were propounded with notable exactness. Concerning some particulars less exactly expressed, the author, questioned by me through an intermediary, had modestly given some satisfactory explanations. Here and there some scenes appeared to me too diffusely described, even with many vivid colors. But generally speaking, the reading of the Work is not only interesting and pleasing, but truly edifying and – for people less well informed on the mysteries of the life of Jesus – instructive.”

 

[Insight]

Fr, Marco Giraudo, 0.P. Commissioner of the Holy Office in 1961, to Fr, Berti, representing the Order of the Servants of Mary, and made responsible for her writings by Maria Vallorta herself (1961):

“You have our complete approval to continue the publication of this second edition of Valtorta’s Poem of the Man-God”

Sister Monica Foltier, Cincinnati, Ohio (1987):

“lt is fantastic. I could hardly let it out of my hands. After I finished it once, I immediately began to read it again. It is going to have a terrific impact on those who wish to live a more religious life.”

Jean Aulagnier, specialist in ancient calendars, author of a book on Valtorta’s work (1995):

“Having established a scientific chronolgy of all events and occurrences in Maria Valtorta’s work, I cannot but say it remains unexplainable otherwise than by divine intervention.”

Wayne Weible, International reporter and Christian preacher, South Carolina (1987):

“I must tell you that I consider this book to be the greatest book I have ever read outside of the holy scriptures. It is a full amplification of the gospel stories of Jesus. I am forever indebted to Maria [Valtorta] for this tremendous work. I am promoting it as the best source for details of the life of Christ and His BIessed Mother. Everywhere I speak I recommend it.”

Roulie Stadelmen, Great Modowa, N.J, (1987):

“The Poem of the Man-God, I LOVE IT. My only regret is that I have not read it before.”

David Ottman, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada (1987):

“The Poem of the Man-God should be put into the hands of as many sincere people as possible …] It is a wonderful book and I have been so deeply touched by the simple beauty of the account of Our Lord’s Life.”

Msgr. Macchi. private secretary of Pope Paul VI, to Fr. C. M. Berti OSM, in an hour long interview (1963)

“When His Holiness (Paul VI) was Archbishop of Milan, he read one of the books of The Poem of the Man-God. He told me how he appreciated it, and had me send the complete work to the Library of the diocesan Seminary.”

Msgr. Gianfranco Nolli, director of the Vatican Museum, author (1971):

“Whoever reads The Poem of the Man-God is favored with spiritual blessing and inner peace.”

Fr. Gabriel M. Roschini, professor at “Marianum”, Pontifical Faculty of Theology in Rome, famous Mariologist, author of 130 books, and advisor to the Holy Office (1972):

Note1 : Pope John Paul II often called Father Gabriel Roschini the Greatest Mariologist that ever lived.

“I must candidly admit that the Mariology found in Maria Valtorta’s writings, whether published or not, has been for me a real discovery. A Madonna in perfect harmony with the ecclesiastical Magisterium, particularly with the Second Vatican Council, with Scripture and ecclesiastical Tradition. No other Marian writing, not even the sum total of all the writings I have read and studied were able to give me as clear, as lively, as complete, as luminous, or as fascinating an image, both simple and sublime, of Mary, God’s masterpiece.”

Note 2: In his last book (which Father Gabriel said was his greatest, “The Virgin Mary In The Writings of Maria Valtorta”), the first two pages contain a letter of endorsement by Pope Paul VI. Page one displays a photocopy of the original letter in Italian complete with Vatican insignia, and page two contains the English translation.

 

[Insight]

Fr. A.S. Rosso, ofm, missionary, professor, editor (1974):

“I always find something new in it, even after reading it eight times.”

Prof, Fabrizio Braccini, University of Palermo (1979):

“What constitutes the finish line for others, so to speak, is, on the contrary Maria Valtorta’s ascetic starting point.”

Fr. Gabriel Allegre, Servant of God, OFM, , Macao/Hong-Kong (1970). Father Gabriel was the first to transtlate the entire Bible into Chinese. He started the first Biblical institute in China. The title “Servant of God” shows that this pre-eminent scripture scholar has passed the first test in the process of becoming a recognized saint of the Roman Catholic Church. Mandarin Chinese is the most spoken language in the world.

“The finger of God is here. As for theological justification of a book as convincing, as charismatic, as extraordinary even from a merely human point of view, as is Maria Valtorta’s POEM OF THE MAN-GOD, I find it in St. Paul’s First Epistle to the Corinthians 14,6 where he writes: Take me, for instance brothers, of what use could I be to you, if I were to come to you speaking tongues, but without revelation or knowledge, prophecy or doctrine?”

H.E. George H. Pearce, s.m., former Archbishop of Suva, Fiji, now active in Providence, Rhode Island (1987):

“I first came in contact with the work of Maria Valtorta in 1979 …] I find it tremendously inspiring. It is impossible for me to imagine that anyone could read this tremendous work with an open mind and not be convinced that its author can be no one but the Holy Spirit of God.”

Fr. Gino C. Violini, Calgary Alberta, Canada (1987):

“lt is the gospel proclaimed with new vigor and detail. It is a powerful light beamed on the person of Jesus Christ and his eternal teachings. Indeed this work appears to be the only true vision-and-word revelation on the gospels ever granted to mankind.”

Rev. E. Vitchkoski, M. I. C., Thompson, Connecticut (1987):

“I have read the story of the Adoration of the Shepherds… at least 8 times… to individuals, small groups, and even a group of 24. The reaction is amazing. All are touched profoundly. …] All are enthusiastic. I believe that this is the age to know more about Our Lord and Lady. The time is ripe and the people ready and thirsting to know and love.”

Fr. Brendan O’Keefe, St Louis, Missouri (1987):

“lt seemed to have a mystifying effect on me bringing a deep inner peace.”

Testimonial From Advanced Christianity

Father Vernard Poslusney, New York, (1995) Father Vernard is considered by many people throughout Austria, Rome and the United States to be one of the greatest Roman Catholic orators that ever lived. He served as a Carmelite retreat director, conducting numerous Conferences, Days of Prayer, Homilies, Lectures, Retreats, Seminars, Sermons, Teachings and Workshops. Some of these were with Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen in the 1970’s.

“Maria Valtorta’s Revelations are the most authentic I have ever read”.

 

[Insight]

Testimonials From Save Our Church

The three witnesses of Pope Pius XII’s order for publishing The Poem were: Fr. CorradoBerti, Professor of Dogmatic and Sacramental Theology at the Pontifical “Marianum” Theological Faculty of Rome from 1939 onward, later becoming Secretary of the Faculty from 1950 to 1959, as well as consultant to some of the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council: His two confreres, Fr. Romualdo M. Migliorini, ex-prefect apostle in Africa and Fr. Andrew M. Cecchin, Prior of the International College of the Servites of Mary in Rome. According to Berti’s own words, writing in the third person, he says, “As soon as the three priests had come out of the papal audience, they stopped by the stairs and wrote on a card the verbatim words of the Pope, in order to never forget them.” (Who in his right mind would not have immediately written out such a verbal order?) Quoted from: "A Testimony on Maria Valtorta’s Poem of the Man-God, by Rev. Corrado Berti, O.S.M.

bardstown.com/~brchrys/Corberti.htm

bardstown.com/~brchrys/Corberti.htm

The fact that the Pope did grant this audience to the three witnesses is also historically documented. This audience was documented on the very next day on the first page of the L’Osservatore Romano, Citta Del Vaticano, no. 48, February 27, 1948. The Holy Office certainly was not ignorant of Pius XII’s practice of giving verbal approvals, or the probability of the outcome of that meeting. Nothing else can explain the total silencing of any defense from these witnesses charged with “disobedience” and the continued refusal of the Holy Office to make any inquiry as to the outcome of that meeting. In respect to the oral Imprimatur, no less a personage than Edouard Cardinal Gagon, though no supporter of The Poem, writing to the Maria Valtorta Research Center from the Vatican on October 31, 1987, referred to Pope Pius XII’s action as: ‘the kind of official Imprimatur granted before witnesses by the Holy Father in 1948.’" An Introduction to Maria Valtorta is (p.7)

bardstown.com/~brchrys/Valepic.htm

bardstown.com/~brchrys/Valepic.htm

In 1985, Maria Pavlovic, upon hearing someone ask about The Poem of the Man-God, declared, “Maria Valtorta! All true: The Poem of the Man-God. The Madonna said two years ago: All true! Dictated by Jesus!” Bollettino Valtortiano, Semestrale del Centro Editoriale Valtortiano, no 34 (July-December 1986),p.135. The source for the quote cited in An Introduction to Maria Valtorta is (p.11)

bardstown.com/~brchrys/Valepic.htm

bardstown.com/~brchrys/Valepic.htm

In an interview with Attorney Jan Cornell of the Pittsburgh Center for Peace on January 27, 1988, Cornell asked Vicka Ivankovic if there were other books Our Lady had told her about. Vicka replied, “Yes, The Poem of the Man-God by Maria Valtorta, ten volumes. Our Lady says The Poem of the Man-God is the truth. . . . Our Lady said if a person wants to know Jesus he should read Poem of the Man-God by Maria Valtorta. That book is the truth.” The Queen of Peace Newsletter (Pittsburgh Center for Peace, P.O. Box 1218, Coraopolis, PA 15108), 1988, vol. 1, no.2. The source for the quote cited in An Introduction to Maria Valtorta is (p.11)

mariavaltortawebring.com/Pages/014_1988.htm

bardstown.com/~brchrys/Valepic.htm

bardstown.com/~brchrys/Valepic.htm

medjugorjeweible.com/other_materials.html

The very same testimony from Vicka Ivankovic was given in an interview with Elliot Miller and Kenneth Samples, who are no supporters of Medjugorje. This testimony is found in their book, The Cult of the Virgin, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI , 1992, p. 150.

 

[Insight]

Scientific

Many objections disputed that Maria Valtorta is the only visionary who described Jesus as having golden blonde hair and bright blue eyes. Furthermore, the Church universally accepted, that Jesus being a Jew, had dark skin, dark eyes, and dark hair. Remarkably, in 1964, a tablet from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar was recovered in a archeological find (a copy of this letter is in the Congressional Library in Washington, D.C.) which describes Jesus’ physical appearance. It describes Jesus as having golden colored hair. Another unearthed description by Publius Lentrelus describes Jesus’ eyes as bright blue. Link Maria Valtorta is the only Visionary to get this right!

While reviewing the evidence of the Shroud in 1999, Dr. Gilbert Lavoie presented another intriguing discovery, that the body had light blond hair.

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/williamsaunders/straightanswers/shroudofturin.asp

Dr, Vittorio Tredici, geologist and mineralogist, Italy (1952):

“I wish to underline the author’s unexplainably precise knowledge of Palestine in its panoramic, topographic, geological and mineralogical aspects.”

Dr. Nicholas Pende, endocrinologist of world renown and consultant to the Sacred Congregation of Rites, (1952):

“She describes a phenomenon which only a few informed physicians would know how to explain, and she does it in an authentically medical style.”

David J. Webster, Executive Director of SaveOurChurch.org:

He posted a landmark 31 page article that fundamentally proves the authenticity of Maria Valtorta’s writings. The “Poem of the Man-God” may be the very first Private Revelation ever to be scientifically proven genuine. David meticulously and methodically examines Maria Valtorta’s strikingly accurate descriptions of first Century Palestine for every piece of topographical evidence. He then compares this evidence with currently known facts that are only now being proven authentic.

“Over thirty percent or 79 (all entries marked with * and ) of the 255 geographical sites in Palestine mentioned in the Poem were not listed in the 1939 International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) Atlas. 62 (all) of these 79 were not even listed in the 184 page Macmillan Bible Atlas (MBA) published in 1968. Where did Maria Valtorta get all these names? For a first century eye-witness to include so many obscure and unknown names would, of course, be expected. And most surprising is that these names, obscure and unknown in the 1940’s, are being proven authentic. 52 of these 62 have no biblical reference whatever and 17 of these with no biblical reference have been either indirectly confirmed as authentic by recent “ancient external sources” found in the Macmillan Bible Atlas (1968) or actually listed in the HarperCollins Atlas of the Bible (1989). This makes a total of 29 confirmations since the 1939 ISBE atlas listing. Also among those 62 sites are mentioned the ruins of 6 ancient Palestinian cities some corresponding to the modern consensus on location. In addition, Valtorta’s precise descriptions of the natural topography of Palestine from numerous locations and the information about the outside pagan world of that day, including people, places, customs, Greek and Roman mythology, related in the conversations of that day, are strikingly correct.”

 

[Joysong]

Rising Sun,

Promoters who use the name of a Pope to validate their claim that the work is approved, is rather sad. It seems you have bought the lie that was on the linked website.

Paul VI did NOT write the referenced letter personally, nor is it his signature. [If need be, I can show you how he signs his name.] It was written by a third person, perhaps a secretary, who simply gave a blessing for the labor. It says not a word about papal approval.

In addition, the Church would never make a proclamation concerning the truth of alleged apparitions. You apparently do not know very much about private revelations and church teachings. This is alarming, that so many willingly swallow the nonsense they read on websites, rather than check with the Church.

Verbal permission for a publication is never going to convince anyone that it was granted, unless the wording is expressly stated in the cover, together with the date, and the one who grants it. There is nothing there, no matter how many times anyone might affirm that they were granted it verbally. In a court of law, this would never hold up! For example, to say that I have copyright permission, or a patent license, without written certification, is simply hearsay and not acceptable to anyone whomsoever.

Can you tell me why anyone is so intent on circulating this fiction? If it is devotional reading for you, fine … God bless. But why the extraordinary zeal and obsession to have it circulated among the faithful? Do you intend that Maria be canonized?

 

[Joysong]

Insight,

Sorry, but you have wasted CAF’s precious bandwidth attempting to persuade those who are not interested! I guess you think I’m going to read it all.

You may blah on and on, but I am rather nauseated by your obsessive compulsion to promote this, even though nobody is listening.

A word to the wise.

 

[Rising_Suns]

If I may make a secondary comment. After reading through this thread, I think it is important that it remain sober and reasoned, otherwise it will be closed like the other threads have been.

I am specifically speaking to Valtorta promoters in this thread, since I am one myself, and feel a certain obligation to them. We do not want to play into the stereotypes give to followers of this apparition. As promoters of the Poem, one must never cross the line into fanaticism. If the Lord wants Maria Valtorta’s work to be brought to light, then it will happen. One must be at peace about this, and stick to sound reason, and sober discussion, always submissive to the Church.

This is why I believe it is especially important to avoid impugning the character of Church officials, such as Cardinal Ottaviani.

Many blessings,

-Davide

 

[Rising_Suns]

Joysong:

I question the motives of those who repeatedly promote the Poem as though it were a fifth gospel that the faithful are missing out on, and attempt to elevate it to the status of Doctor of the Church, for heaven’s sake.

Dear Joysong,
Please know that anyone who promotes the Poem as a 5th gospel is in serious error. I do not purport that, and I would hope that other promoters of Valtorta do not either. As far as I can tell in this thread, no one has claimed this.

Based on what I have read, the bulk of this thread is taken up by defending claims made against the Poem, rather than promoting it as obligatory reading. As you know, private revelation is not required for assent of faith, and one is not oblidged to read this work. I would ask that you try to see our position in this, that is; if one truly believes that this apparition is authentic, then it is reasonable to expect a defense of its authenticity. If true, its spiritual benefits should be obvious.

Blessings,

-Davide

 

[Rising_Suns]

Verbal permission for a publication is never going to convince anyone that it was granted, unless the wording is expressly stated in the cover, together with the date, and the one who grants it. There is nothing there, no matter how many times anyone might affirm that they were granted it verbally. In a court of law, this would never hold up! For example, to say that I have copyright permission, or a patent license, without written certification, is simply hearsay and not acceptable to anyone whomsoever.

Joysong,
Verbal testimony is equally as important as written testimony. If it wasn’t, then the Church would not have survived. Remember, Protestant theology attempts to discredit the verbal testimony of Oral Tradition. They promote written testimony (Scripture) as the supreme authority, and ignore Sacred Tradition. Yet without the oral testimony, the Bible would never exist.

In a court of law, the verbal testimony of two eye witnesses is sufficient to convict someone of the death penalty. Eye witness accounts carry more weight that you give them.

Paul VI did NOT write the referenced letter personally, nor is it his signature. [If need be, I can show you how he signs his name.] It was written by a third person, perhaps a secretary, who simply gave a blessing for the labor. It says not a word about papal approval.

Joysong,
He did authorize it, which has the same implication as if he wrote it personally. Lets also be mindful of the numerous other actions that Paul VI took in favor of the Poem…

Blessings,

-Davide

 

[Joysong]

Please know that anyone who promotes the Poem as a 5th gospel is in serious error. I do not purport that, and I would hope that other promoters of Valtorta do not either. As far as I can tell in this thread, no one has claimed this.

The serious problem is that the promoters use false citations allegedly from the papacy in order to promote it, and this is why you have so much opposition. This doesn’t look to me like anyone is putting that specific trust in God, is it? How unlike your group is from St. Faustina, who truly did rely on God to affirm the work He called her to write. And how unlike St. Therese whose Story of a Soul was so overwhelmingly and immediately accepted by the faithful as a work of a saint.

As you know, private revelation is not required for assent of faith, and one is not obliged to read this work. I would ask that you try to see our position in this, that is; if one truly believes that this apparition is authentic, then it is reasonable to expect a defense of its authenticity.

When the gospels were written, they were meant to be a theological and evangelical work — not a chronological, historical, or intimately detailed work, for instance, to show the color of Jesus’s hair or eyes, nor to give extensive details about the hidden life of Christ. If it was necessary for our faith, it would have been written.

Verbal testimony is equally as important as written testimony.

I would have expected this straw man argument, or a similar one. You are reeeeeally stretching to make a lame point.

A devout friend loaned me her book several years ago, and I was very turned off by the nonsense that was being presented as absolute truth.

The problem with alleged apparitions is that there are, as Pius XII admitted, many aspects that are not true, though SOME of them may be. When they are all mixed together in the pot, folks can assume truth in all of them. In my walk as a secular carmelite, the studies of mystical phenomena by St. John of the Cross reveal the huge potential for error in what one sees in a vision or hears in a locution. Fr. Groeschel also wrote his entire book about that likelihood, and caution is of the utmost necessity.

If you are so naive to trust that each and every word Maria wrote is solid truth, then I suggest you consult a spiritual director and avail yourself of St. John’s “Ascent of Mt. Carmel.” You walk a dangerous road.

 

[Insight]

Jesus said in John 8:17 that “It is written in the Law, the testimony of two witnesses is true” So how can the written testimony of three outstanding Priest’s be false? They testified that Pope Pius XII said: “Publish this work as it is; there is no need to say whether it is of supernatural origin, who reads it will understand." Feb. 26, 1948.

Saint Faustina’s writings were placed on the Index the same day as Maria Valtorta’s, by Pope John XXIII as he took Office, at the request of Cardinal Ratzinger. They are now read at Divine Mercy Sunday Mass, if you ask the Priest after Mass as I have, as to why, the reply was because the Index was obolished.

God Bless

 

[Joysong]

Insight,

False assumption and misleading on both accounts, as usual.
You really need to do your homework.

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[Insight]

How do you find Jesus’ statement false and misleading? He said in John 8:17 that “It is written in the Law, the testimony of two witnesses is true”. That is a clear succinct statement, there isn’t room for play in it. So how can the written testimony of three outstanding Priest’s be false? They testified that Pope Pius XII said: “Publish this work as it is; there is no need to say whether it is of supernatural origin, who reads it will understand." Feb. 26, 1948.

Saint Faustina’s writings were placed on the Index the same day as Maria Valtorta’s, by Pope John XXIII as he took Office, at the request of Cardinal Ottaviani. They can now be read at Divine Mercy Sunday Mass because the Index was abolished.