Point of view from a Catholic

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who has read Martin Luther’s 95 theses, his criticisms of the Church and the pope in 1517.
 
Sweething2014 said:
who has read Martin Luther’s 95 theses, his criticisms of the Church and the pope in 1517.
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I have, only after I became Catholic. I think if most Protestants read them they’d find what Luther believed quite strange compared to their own theology.
 
I’ve read the theses. I am not an expert on Martin Luther. There are some here at CAF much more knowledgeable than I

Peace
 
write the point of view of a Catholic who reads Martin Luther’s 95 theses (his criticisms of the church & the pope in 1517. include the bible only in latin, indulgences, excommunnication,hersey,the rich church not helping the poor
 
I’m going to recommend two links from apologist Dave Armstrong’s website:

Martin Luther: socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/luther-lutheranism-index-page.html

Lutheranism in general: socrates58.blogspot.com/2011/11/lutheranism-catholic-critique-index.html

Although a lot of Dave’s online works contain dialogues which, on both sides, can sometimes get heated or perhaps a bit too passionate, and although I can get a little stressed out with that sort of thing, I think his work in general is quite useful, quite objective, and will really give you a great perspective on what’s being discussed and debated.
 
“Point of view” is pretty broad. What exactly do you want to know? About half of the 95 theses were specifically condemned by Leo X in the bull Exsurge Domine, but he says they are only “some” of the errors, so it doesn’t mean the ones omitted are a-okay. On the other hand, some are obviously true, such as #1, “When our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, said “Repent”, He called for the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.” Ironically this is exactly the opposite of what “faith alone” logically leads to.
 
Sweething2014 said:
write the point of view of a Catholic who reads Martin Luther’s 95 theses (his criticisms of the church & the pope in 1517. include the bible only in latin, indulgences, excommunnication,hersey,the rich church not helping the poor
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Only in Latin! :eek:

“The Catholic Verses” by Dave Armstrong counters Luther’s 95 theses.

The Catholic Verses
 
Sweething2014 said:
write the point of view of a Catholic who reads Martin Luther’s 95 theses (his criticisms of the church & the pope in 1517. include the bible only in latin, indulgences, excommunnication,hersey,the rich church not helping the poor
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Is this a homework assignment?
 
pianistclare said:
Is this a homework assignment?
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Good question. Objections to subjects like the language of the Bible, indulgences, heresy, excommunications, etc. all have perfectly defensible answers. Pick one and we can discuss it.
 
ENCYCLICAL LETTER
CARITAS IN VERITATE
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
BENEDICT XVI
TO THE BISHOPS
PRIESTS AND DEACONS
MEN AND WOMEN RELIGIOUS
THE LAY FAITHFUL
AND ALL PEOPLE OF GOOD WILL
ON INTEGRAL HUMAN DEVELOPMENT
IN CHARITY AND TRUTH
  1. « Caritas in veritate » principium est in quo tota socialis Ecclesiae doctrina sistit, principium scilicet quod formam induit, quae in normis moralem actionem moderantibus operatur. Harum duas nominatim memorare volumus, quae peculiarem in modum officio suggeruntur societatem amplificandi, quae ad globalizationem vertitur, videlicet iustitiam et bonum commune.
Primum iustitiam dicimus. Ubi societas, ibi ius: quaeque societas suum ipsius iustitiae ordinem constituit. Caritas iustitiam praetergreditur, quia amare est donare, « meum » alii ministrare; sed istud non sine iustitia fit, quae alii tribuendum curat quod « ad eum » spectat, quod, ratione habita ipsius essendi et operandi, ad eum pertinet. Alii meum « tribuere » non possum, quin primum quod ad eum secundum iustitiam spectat non dederim. Qui ceteros caritate amat, ante omnia erga eos aequus est. Non modo iustitia caritati non est aversa, non modo via non est quaedam succedanea vel caritati confinis: iustitia « a caritate seiungi non potest » [1], intra eam est. Iustitia prima est via caritatis vel, ad Decessoris Nostri Pauli VI effatum, « minima ipsius mensura » [2], pars quidem necessaria illius amoris « in opere et veritate » (1 Io 3, 18), de qua re monet apostolus Ioannes. Ex una parte caritas iustitiam secum fert: agnitionem scilicet et legitimorum iurium singulorum populorumque tuitionem. Dat ipsa operam ut « hominis civitas » ad ius iustitiamque constituatur. Ex altera, caritas iustitiam praetergreditur eamque donationis veniaeque ratione complet [3]. « Hominis civitas » non solum iurium officiorumque vinculis provehitur, sed magis atque prae omnibus rebus gratuitatis, misericordiae communionisque vinculis. Usque etiam in humanis necessitudinibus Dei amorem ostendit caritas, vim theologicam salutaremque cunctis iustitiae officiis in terrarum orbe ipsa praebet.

Pax
 
Yes it is a homework assignment for a 7th grader. Whom isn’t Catholic. They want it all included. in the wringing. Doesn’t make since to us either.
 
Scottgun said:
Good question. Objections to subjects like the language of the Bible, indulgences, heresy, excommunications, etc. all have perfectly defensible answers. Pick one and we can discuss it.
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I’d be interested to hear your defence of the sale of indulgences and the trade in relics.
 
Jon_S said:
I have, only after I became Catholic. I think if most Protestants read them they’d find what Luther believed quite strange compared to their own theology.
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Yes indeed, but it’s not surprising as he was a Catholic!! He just objected to corruption.
 
Sweething2014 said:
who has read Martin Luther’s 95 theses, his criticisms of the Church and the pope in 1517.
Click to expand...
I have, and I’ve also read quite a few books about that period of time in our Church. He had some valid complaints and criticisms, but like too many “crusaders for the cause”, he went overboard. Separating from the Church is not an effective way to right perceived wrongs. 🙂
 
Kelt said:
I’d be interested to hear your defence of the sale of indulgences and the trade in relics.
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The idea of donating a lot of money as an act of penance is in and of itself not problematic. It’s similar in principle to taking a vow of poverty.

Obviously the corruption of this practice was a big problem.
 
Jon_S said:
The idea of donating a lot of money as an act of penance is in and of itself not problematic. It’s similar in principle to taking a vow of poverty.

Obviously the corruption of this practice was a big problem.
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I take issue with the donating of a lot of money being akin to taking a vow of poverty. Where a large donation of money is involved, while the donator is the poorer for it, (as he/she would be if they took a vow of poverty) someone or something stands to gain a lot…and that is where the corruption sneaks in. The temptation to improve a church official’s lifestyle, or to spend money on the aggrandisement of the church fabric rather than the relief of the sometimes desperately poor in the parish, was too great for most people. Promises of relief from time in purgatory were sold to gullible people in return for money…people who already had very little money, not just the rich. Going to fight in the crusades earned you remission of sins…if you didn’t want to go and fight yourself, you could pay someone else to go while still keeping the remission of sins for yourself.
It wouldn’t be hard for a hard-up church to make an income from selling indulgences.
 
My point is that Martin Luther wanted to scotch the very idea of indulgences, not merely the abuses within indulgences.
 
Scottgun said:
My point is that Martin Luther wanted to scotch the very idea of indulgences, not merely the abuses within indulgences.
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I am not convinced of that based on the 95 theses.

5.The pope has neither the will nor the power to remit any penalties beyond those imposed either at his own discretion or by canon law.

6.The pope himself cannot remit guilt, but only declare and confirm that it has been remitted by God; or, at most, he can remit it in cases reserved to his discretion. Except for these cases, the guilt remains untouched.

36.Any Christian whatsoever, who is truly repentant, enjoys plenary remission from penalty and guilt, and this is given him without letters of indulgence.
  1. Yet the pope’s remission and dispensation are in no way to be despised, for, as already said, they proclaim the divine remission.
  2. Papal indulgences should only be preached with caution, lest people gain a wrong understanding, and think that they are preferable to other good works: those of love.
Luther opposed get out of hell free cards, but not the idea of penance prescribed by the church.
 
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