Pointless pro-choice statements

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Well, reality is that I’ve never heard of a single person who’s been kidnapped by music lovers and hooked up to a sick violinist. 🤷
But the technology is on the verge of existence and similar procedures are being done at present as I recall. I’m not up to date on my biomedical research.
It’s a hypothetical, not a real situation. And like you once said to me about the violinist argument, I have to assume that the only reason you’re not answering is because you can’t.
I’ve explained why I’m not answering but you are of course welcome to assume as you like… just remember what assuming does.
As for your original brain stem argument, as I’ll refer to it, I’ve already pointed out why I think that it’s not valid, because that logic could be applied to sleeping and comatose people.
Sleeping persons exhibit brainwaves as do many comatose persons–I believe, precluding brain death or a persistent vegetative state–and in those two cases I believe rights do cease or at the very least all medical procedures become extraordinary which amount to the same thing (without taking this discussion in an entirely different direction).
 
Regardless of whether we call it theology or philosophy–and acknowledge the differences between the two–the fact of the matter is that you can’t get from the factual is of ‘this being is genetically human’ to the moral ought of ‘genetically human beings oughtn’t to be killed’ simply with biology and without refuge to philosophy/theology (see more about the is/ought dilemma at secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem or your local library).
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I know what the is/ought problem is, however, it isn’t only a one way tool. To say that “a fetus is a person; therefore abortion ought not be permitted”, and “a fetus isn’t a person; therefore abortion ought to be permitted” both fall victim to Hume’s guillotine (much in the same way as arguing that a fetus is or is not a person based on observation falls victim to Kant’s noumenon/phenomenon distinction).

-Prophecy
 
Sleeping persons exhibit brainwaves as do many comatose persons–I believe, precluding brain death or a persistent vegetative state–and in those two cases I believe rights do cease or at the very least all medical procedures become extraordinary which amount to the same thing (without taking this discussion in an entirely different direction).
As I understand it, the brainwaves during sleep are different than those during conscious times, though interestingly while dreaming a vivid dream I believe certain nerves are firing in the visual centre of the brain, however not as normal obviously. The comatose generally generate less (once again, obvious reason).

However you cannot say that rights cease or medical procedures become extraordinary. This is a generalization regarding the various legislation throughout the world. But when arguing with Marc and you say ‘In American the rights stop when the victim is comatose’ isn’t going to have sway on a person already devoted to overturning another case in which something he believes is a person does not have rights (he could easily respond ‘I don’t care that the US doesn’t give rights then, I seek to overturn that too’). Marc isn’t usually legislation as a source of rights here (though he could use pre-existing legislation as a mean of widening his argument or illustrating legal discrepancy), he’s trying to use personhood. He just wants legislation to reflect that.

I hope I haven’t misrepresented you Marc.

-Prophecy
 
But the technology is on the verge of existence and similar procedures are being done at present as I recall. I’m not up to date on my biomedical research.
I’m going to ask you another hypothetical situation if you don’t mind. And don’t fret, I don’t intend on using this for justifying or criticizing abortion, the intention remains only with hypothetical situations.

There is an out of control trolley and it’s travelling rapidly down it’s track. You notice that the trolley is about to come upon a track-switch. The track already in place will lead the trolley to a group of 5 non-critically injured people who will not be able to escape its path. However, on the other side of the track-switch is a single non-critically injured person who will also not be able to escape its path. Immediately in front of you is the lever to switch the rails. So the question is:

a). Do you do nothing and permit the 5 people to die?

b). Do you pull the switch and cause the 1 person to die?

Even if you want, you can take a guess to which one is more commonly chosen over the other instead of giving your own thoughts.

-Prophecy
 
If you look back a few pages, vz71 was insistent this jump was not required and that the principle in the moral ought was self-evident… That approach is not intellectually rigorous or, frankly, intelligible or persuasive.
How back-handed of you. Thanks. :rolleyes:

If I remember correctly, you dropped the argument.
Perhaps because the position that “personhood” must be a criteria to discern if someone should be murdered cannot be defended in rational terms.
 
Genetically, the unborn human is fully human. That is independent of the stage of development of the human. If someone here who is pro-choice wants to split hairs over when the unborn human has value as a human, then I guess we can play that game all day. If, God forbid, your parent or spouse became completely dependent on other humans or machines, I guess by the standard applied that says " dependence equals property " then in those cases, the people caring for the sick parent or spouse, or the owners of the machine doing so, would have the right to allow the death of the patient. You might say sentience, or human physical form negates this. Okay, then hypothetically, someone becomes grotequely disformed, and also goes into a persistent vegetative state. Should the hospital owning the equipment that helps the person breath be able to decide the patient should die. After all, he or she is simply " a parasite " on the hospital, and an inconvenience. Since they are neither recognizably sentient nor in standard human form, I guess they aren’t of value as a human. That is a logical extension of the " formless mass of cells " argument put forth in defense of abortions.
 
But the technology is on the verge of existence and similar procedures are being done at present as I recall. I’m not up to date on my biomedical research.
So you think that once the technology exists we’re going to hear about people getting kidnapped and hooked up to people against their will?

I’ll go out on a limb here and say I don’t believe that.
I’ve explained why I’m not answering but you are of course welcome to assume as you like… just remember what assuming does.
Interesting, since I was turning your own words back at you…you assumed before, because I didn’t want to answer the violinist argument, that I couldn’t answer!

And now that you won’t answer my argument, I assume the same thing…and you call me out on it!

A bit inconsistent, no?
Sleeping persons exhibit brainwaves as do many comatose persons–I believe, precluding brain death or a persistent vegetative state–and in those two cases I believe rights do cease or at the very least all medical procedures become extraordinary which amount to the same thing (without taking this discussion in an entirely different direction).
What types of brainwaves? What exactly do you mean here?

You need to expand on this, and provide me proof that sleeping and comatose persons (at least, those who are not vegetables or brain dead) exhibit AT ALL TIMES brainwaves. Then you need to explain why this arbitrary definition of personhood should be accepted over, say, when a baby can support it’s own circulatory system, as others have posited to me.

Defining personhood is a slippery slope. It’s impossible to “prove” when somebody changes from a mere human to a person. I think it’s best not to try-when a human forms, they’re a person. The two are not mutually exclusive.
 
As I understand it, the brainwaves during sleep are different than those during conscious times, though interestingly while dreaming a vivid dream I believe certain nerves are firing in the visual centre of the brain, however not as normal obviously. The comatose generally generate less (once again, obvious reason).

However you cannot say that rights cease or medical procedures become extraordinary. This is a generalization regarding the various legislation throughout the world. But when arguing with Marc and you say ‘In American the rights stop when the victim is comatose’ isn’t going to have sway on a person already devoted to overturning another case in which something he believes is a person does not have rights (he could easily respond ‘I don’t care that the US doesn’t give rights then, I seek to overturn that too’). Marc isn’t usually legislation as a source of rights here (though he could use pre-existing legislation as a mean of widening his argument or illustrating legal discrepancy), he’s trying to use personhood. He just wants legislation to reflect that.

I hope I haven’t misrepresented you Marc.

-Prophecy
Thank you, this was well said. I appreciate it.
 
Also: In your ‘if a cow might be a person’ analogy, if we have a doubt to its ‘person-hood’ we would be wrong to kill and eat it.

[An aside: I read online the other day about someone saving and eating foetus parts!:eek:]
Thanks. I won’t press it beyond your more than generous response which helps in my insight.

We who (re: having doubt)? The philosophical consensus? So too, we who (re: wrong in killing)? Individuals? Society as a whole?

Society as a whole.

If we’re talking about the killing of beings that may be–not that they could be not but that we do not know–persons then isn’t the safest course to set up laws protecting them? Surely if Catholics argue that abortion should be illegal because fetuses may be–as above–persons then the parallel seems obvious and logical consistency would require outlawing the production of beef.
Outlawing the production of beef?
I thought you were bringing in a silly analogy in order to illustrate a point. With the possible exception of some of those who choose to deny human exceptionalism, I do not see any useful parallel between unborn babies and cows.
Of course, IF there was doubt as to the personhood of cows, it would certainly be consistent to outlaw their murder too. But that is just plain silliness.
As myself and others have shown on this thread, there are SERIOUS reasons to believe that killing a ‘foetus’ is actually the killing of a human person.
(Killing an innocent cow is not the same as killing an innocent human being.)

Most non-vegetarians have no problem eating beef.
How many pro-abortionists have no problems eating a foetus??
 
I’m going to ask you another hypothetical situation if you don’t mind. And don’t fret, I don’t intend on using this for justifying or criticizing abortion, the intention remains only with hypothetical situations.

There is an out of control trolley and it’s travelling rapidly down it’s track. You notice that the trolley is about to come upon a track-switch. The track already in place will lead the trolley to a group of 5 non-critically injured people who will not be able to escape its path. However, on the other side of the track-switch is a single non-critically injured person who will also not be able to escape its path. Immediately in front of you is the lever to switch the rails. So the question is:

a). Do you do nothing and permit the 5 people to die?

b). Do you pull the switch and cause the 1 person to die?

Even if you want, you can take a guess to which one is more commonly chosen over the other instead of giving your own thoughts.

-Prophecy
I love the trolley problem, more so the assorted derivatives but that’s ok, but I’ve never heard a version that explicitly stated ‘non-critically injured.’ I’d pull the switch. I would also guess this is the common answer as well and would assume this is because most people have an implicit understanding of the principle of double effect.
 
Outlawing the production of beef?
I thought you were bringing in a silly analogy in order to illustrate a point. With the possible exception of some of those who choose to deny human exceptionalism, I do not see any useful parallel between unborn babies and cows. If course, IF there was doubt as to the personhood of cows, it would certainly be consistent to outlaw their murder too. But that is just plain silliness.
I am a proponent of human exceptionalism too but find this interesting intellectually. If society as a whole is the deciding entity would a population that is–for example, but any sufficiently high number would suffice–50% of the population were Jain would that be enough to induce sufficient doubt to raise questions of their murder (as you call it.
As myself and others have shown on this thread, there are SERIOUS reasons to believe that killing a ‘foetus’ is actually the killing of a human person.
So now my cows are not serious?! Well… fair enough I suppose but as I asked above how much doubt must be incurred before we should make the act illegal? Is it measured in percentage of the population who hold the belief?
(Killing an innocent cow is not the same as killing an innocent human being.)
To a degree you’ve begged the question here but as I’ve said I agree that cows aren’t persons but to simply say ‘oh it’s different’ isn’t quite enough–unless you’re simply saying “as discussed above, cows are non-persons and as such killing a cow and a human are different,” and I’m misreading you.
Most non-vegetarians have no problem eating beef.
How many pro-abortionists have no problems eating a foetus??
Surely you must be joking… Also, you ignore the more than a billion Hindus who while not necessarily vegetarians have major issues eating beef (though admittedly not for reasons related to personhood).

Cannibalism is a bit far afield from what we’re discussing. Most of those, however, who support the legal protection of abortion rights (I don’t want to try to rehash the ‘pro-abortion’/‘pro-choice’ and ‘pro-life’/‘anti-choice’ language debate here so I try to use neutral language even if it’s a bit more verbose) would not have problems with getting an abortion at least in certain circumstances.
 
If I may, I’d like to interject here with two real live experiences in my own family. Many years ago I was married and became the father of three children. One day my wife, father and three children were in an auto accident. My wife and father were killed. My seven-year-old son was on life support. He was determined to be brain dead by three independent neurosurgeons. I was told to take him to hospice, because there was nothing that could be done for him. Instead, I decided to turn off the ventilator and the adrenalin IV that kept his heart beating. He died seven minutes later.

This weekend I went to visit my sister who is very ill. She too has been sent to hospice. Unfortunately, her husband has authorized the removal of water, medication, and the feeding tube. None of these pose a threat to her life. It was simply an agreement between him and the doctors that these measures are extraordinary. I challenged the decision. Of course the law is not on my side, because in the state where she lives the term they use is “vegetative state”. In the mind of the State Legislature, those who in a vegetative state need not be given water, food or medication to prevent infections that will kill them. In other words, the law allows the use of passive euthanasia, allowing the person to die by withholding what is necessary to live.

What is the point here? I have faced to situations in my life that are similar, but very different. In my son’s case, he was brain dead. There was no hope of recovery. Removing the ventilator and the adrenaline was not an attempt to terminate his life or accelerate his death. By allowing him to receive water, food and antibiotics I cooperated with the Divine plan. It is God’s plan that all people should live until he calls them home, not until we decide to dismiss them. God gives us specific natural means to keep us alive: nutrition, hydration and antibodies. A ventilator does not feed, hydrate or protect from infection. It is a pump used to assist the lungs of the person who is otherwise alive. When the person is brain dead, he is not alive. There is a major difference between being brain dead and killing the brain.

In my sister’s case, her brain is very much alive. She breathes on her own. She moves, albeit with great effort. Like the child in the womb, she is dependent on others to feed her, give her water, and protect her from disease. The removal of food, water and medication is a deliberate attempt to accelerate the death of a person who is fully alive, but is dependent on the assistance of others in order to remain alive.

The removal of a child from his mother’s womb is the same as euthanasia. This person is alive, albeit dependent on the mother to remain alive. But he is no more a part of his mother than the terminally ill is a part of his/her spouse. Defenseless is not the same as dead and certainly not the same as a possession. We do not own those who are dependent on us to live, whether they are in the womb or outside the womb. In the case of my son who was brain dead, he was not dependent on me to live, because nothing that I could provide would restore life to his brain.

Herein lays the crux of the matter concerning choice over life and death. If I have the resources to keep someone alive and that person depends on those resources, then I have the moral duty to provide them. The child in the mother’s womb depends on the mother to stay alive until God takes his life. Therefore, the mother has the moral duty to provide what she has to offer. Sometimes, what the mother has to offer is not enough. But the moral law is not about whether the mother has enough to offer, but about whether the mother has anything to offer. Whatever she has to offer, she must offer, just as we must offer food, water and medication to the dying, because it is within our power to offer it.

The choice is one of the highest good. The highest good is to provide what the other person needs to live. To take away, whether it’s before birth or after, is contrary to the highest good. The physical shape of the person has nothing do to with the moral good. Whether the person is still at the early stages of development and looks like a blob or the person is curled in a fetal position in a bed, we have a moral obligation to provide whatever is within our means to preserve that life. That person has a moral right to depend on us. Herein the biblical injunction, “I am my brother’s keeper.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
So you think that once the technology exists we’re going to hear about people getting kidnapped and hooked up to people against their will?

I’ll go out on a limb here and say I don’t believe that.
All the time? I surely hope not. Happening ever? Stranger things have happened already. This, however, seems a bit irrelevant to be honest.
Interesting, since I was turning your own words back at you…you assumed before, because I didn’t want to answer the violinist argument, that I couldn’t answer!

And now that you won’t answer my argument, I assume the same thing…and you call me out on it!

A bit inconsistent, no?
shrugs You can call it what you will. I didn’t hear you saying you didn’t want to answer it and that you had concerns–to put it mildly–about the scenario; instead, I heard you avoiding the question because the answer you would give, if pressed, would not be convenient. I’ll be honest, I shouldn’t have done that. I’m sorry.
What types of brainwaves? What exactly do you mean here?
I’m not a neuroscientist so I can only roughly explain here. I mean brainwaves that are unique to humans as a species. Delta waves, for example, appear in sleeping humans as well as during continuous attention tasks. The basic, nickle answer, is information that shows up on an EEG.
You need to expand on this, and provide me proof that sleeping and comatose persons (at least, those who are not vegetables or brain dead) exhibit AT ALL TIMES brainwaves. Then you need to explain why this arbitrary definition of personhood should be accepted over, say, when a baby can support it’s own circulatory system, as others have posited to me.
Brain death is self evident as there is no brain activity by definition. I am not up-to-date on the research regarding PVS and EEGs so I cannot speak with authority on that point. This marker of personhood holds value to me because I think that since what makes us unique as a species is our brains and what they let us do (i.e. think rationally &c) and until that uniqueness is manifest then we’re not really more than any other (non-human) animal. Our circulatory system is not really all that unique.

The other idea that’s struck me as meaningful would be viability since up to that point a fetus is (without getting into the use of language) imposing itself upon its mother and is making claim upon the use mother body, welcomed or not. When the fetus is viable then it can have independent biological existence and no further claim on the body and a woman could give birth and no longer carry the child. Before viability, however, the only way for a woman to free herself of the being making that uninvited claim upon her is with abortion.
Defining personhood is a slippery slope. It’s impossible to “prove” when somebody changes from a mere human to a person. I think it’s best not to try-when a human forms, they’re a person. The two are not mutually exclusive.
So, and I say this without irony or anger just out of a desire to understand what you’re saying, defining personhood is a slippery slope unless we define it your way?
 
So, and I say this without irony or anger just out of a desire to understand what you’re saying, defining personhood is a slippery slope unless we define it your way?
What blind insistance.

You remind me of grade school children that do not want to hear something so close their eyes, put their fingers in their ears, and start humming as loud as they can.

The simple fact of the matter is that “personhood” is a vaperous concept.
There is no single line there, it is arbitrary, and wholly attributable to the side of the argument that prefers death.

It is no longer arguable that the unborn child is human from the point of conception.
Nor is it arguable that this unborn is also very much alive.
So the pro-death crowd needs something else with which to define when it is morally permissable to murder someone.

So now it is OK to murder. :rolleyes:
After all, it may be human but it wasn’t a person.

They weren’t persons…they were unborn.
They weren’t persons…they were Jews.
They weren’t persons…they were slaves.
They weren’t persons…they were savages.
They weren’t persons…they were christians.

History is full of non-persons.
And it is likewise full of barbarians willing to murder.
 
I love the trolley problem, more so the assorted derivatives but that’s ok, but I’ve never heard a version that explicitly stated ‘non-critically injured.’ I’d pull the switch. I would also guess this is the common answer as well and would assume this is because most people have an implicit understanding of the principle of double effect.
Exactly, now we move onto part two.

There is a brilliant surgeon working at the emergency ward, when suddenly 5 unconscious patients arrive, desperately in need of transplants. Surprisingly they are all in need of vital organs, one a heart, etc. However, the hospital has none of these organs available for transplant, he is in desperate need of organs. Then he realizes that his assistant who has recently been diagnosed with a terminal form of cancer, is the only other person in the room with him, and chloroform is easily accessible. So the question is:

a). Does he do nothing and permit the 5 people to die?

b). Does he harvest the organs and cause the 1 person to die?

-Prophecy
 
Brain death is self evident as there is no brain activity by definition. I am not up-to-date on the research regarding PVS and EEGs so I cannot speak with authority on that point. This marker of personhood holds value to me because I think that since what makes us unique as a species is our brains and what they let us do (i.e. think rationally &c) and until that uniqueness is manifest then we’re not really more than any other (non-human) animal. Our circulatory system is not really all that unique.
Wait a minute here. Would you say that if a person were brain-injured to the point where there mental capabilities didn’t go further than an animal then they’re not human persons?
So, and I say this without irony or anger just out of a desire to understand what you’re saying, defining personhood is a slippery slope unless we define it your way?
No, I don’t want to define it at all, even though I have my opinions. It’s too dangerous. Best to assume they’re all humans.
 
Wait a minute here. Would you say that if a person were brain-injured to the point where there mental capabilities didn’t go further than an animal then they’re not human persons?
You mean like Terry Schivo (sp?)? I think she–and those like her–, at the most, were honorary members of the moral community and do not possess rights by their nature.
No, I don’t want to define it at all, even though I have my opinions. It’s too dangerous. Best to assume they’re all humans.
‘When a human forms, they’re a person.’ You want to define ‘person’ such that all humans are persons; that’s fine but don’t try to play it off like you’re not trying to define ‘person.’ As I’ve said above–and you’ve agreed–person is the applicable philosophical term and we can’t just not use it.
 
Exactly, now we move onto part two.

There is a brilliant surgeon working at the emergency ward, when suddenly 5 unconscious patients arrive, desperately in need of transplants. Surprisingly they are all in need of vital organs, one a heart, etc. However, the hospital has none of these organs available for transplant, he is in desperate need of organs. Then he realizes that his assistant who has recently been diagnosed with a terminal form of cancer, is the only other person in the room with him, and chloroform is easily accessible. So the question is:

a). Does he do nothing and permit the 5 people to die?

b). Does he harvest the organs and cause the 1 person to die?

-Prophecy
The likelihood of his assistant being a match for all five unconscious persons aside, barring consent from the assistant, the five will die. As I said above, double effect applies; letting something happen as a side effect and bring it about as a primary cause are markedly different. That said, it would seem as though the assistant–assuming she was a match for the five–would be blessed for laying down her life to save the five strangers…

Remember, you said you weren’t looping this back to the abortion discussion and I’m getting a bit antsy.
 
You mean like Terry Schivo (sp?)? I think she–and those like her–, at the most, were honorary members of the moral community and do not possess rights by their nature.
Honory Member!?!? Moral Community?!?! DO NOT POSSESS RIGHTS!?!?!:eek:

And you feel you are an authority of this? And how is that? You are so rightous that you can decide who is human enough to save and who is not human enough to get rid of? At any given moment you can have an accident, I pray that those who will have to speak for you will not have the screwed up view of human life that you seem to carry on others. I would hate to see you die of starvation or dehydaration cause some moron feels you do not posses the right to life.
 
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