Points of view of Traditional catholic movements on theoretical providentialism?

[fpt]

Do you know the point of view of SSPX concerning theoretical providentialism?

SSPX and Quivertfull movement?
FSSP and theoretical providentialism?
FSSP and Quivertfull movement?
Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest and theoretical providentialism?
Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest and Quivertfull movement?

 

[TrueLight]

Do you know the point of view of SSPX concerning theoretical providentialism?

SSPX and Quivertfull movement?
FSSP and theoretical providentialism?
FSSP and Quivertfull movement?
Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest and theoretical providentialism?
Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest and Quivertfull movement?

Would you like to define theoretical providentialism and the “Quiverfull movement” or provide a link? I am unlearned in such matters.

 

[fpt]

Would you like to define theoretical providentialism and the “Quiverfull movement” or provide a link? I am unlearned in such matters.

theuniversityconcourse.com/article/1915.html

“NFP, while distinguishable from contraception in not being absolutely immoral, is seldom licit and always regrettable.”

“Most married couples (especially in the wealthy West) are perfectly capable of having large families, and most reasons cited for not having large families are bogus.”

“Couples who choose to have large families are making the religiously and morally superior choice.”

“Since selfishness is such a near and present danger, no one should practice NFP without first consulting a priest.”

“The following do not constitute valid reasons for using NFP: wanting to finish your education; wanting to save up for children’s future education; being tired; being stressed; being burdened by debt; having to move; having a small, crowded house; being depressed; feeling overwhelmed, etc.”

 

[fpt]

Quivervull movement

Mar 16, '12, 6:29 pm
robwar
New Member

Join Date: January 19, 2012
Posts: 49
Religion: Catholic
Re: Compatibilities or incompatibilities between Quivervull movement and the teaching of catholic church

you have a good question. One of the leaders behind the movement is a fundamentalist named Bill Gothard. Since you are in France, you are probably not familiar with him but he runs an organization called Institute in Basic Principals and travels the country doing seminars on his views of how Christians should live. He has s very rigid view of the roles between men and women, He teaches a very authoritative role for men in the family and a very submissive role for women. Unmarried children are to stay home even if adult until married. Bill Gothard is unmarried himself. Women do not work outside the home at all and teaches that Christians should follow a number of the old testament Jewish laws regarding diet, clothing, circumsician at 8 days old, the time of month married couples can have relationships etc. he is controversial but he is one of the forces behind the quiverful movement. While the movement seems similar to Catholic in that there is no artificial means of birth control and support for having children, there are a lot of things that he teaches that are questionable especially about his view of authority and relationships between men and women and how a family should be run. I know the posts talked about the emphasis on large families but he teaching of roles between men and women and their children are very concerning and there are books and web sites out there now talking about the damage they have experienced following him.

Mar 16, '12, 3:47 pm
MaryHelene
New Member

Join Date: January 24, 2012
Posts: 42
Religion: Catholic
Re: Compatibilities or incompatibilities between Quivervull movement and the teaching of catholic church
For me, the difference lies the the value placed on having many children vs. the value placed on being open to life. The Church does not teach that large families are any better or holier than small ones, or that couples with more children are more blessed/holy than couples who are never able to conceive a child, or have fewer children. The Church only teaches that couples should remain open to life with every sexual act.

I think the quiver-full movement places a lot of emphasis on the absolute number of children born, almost as though it is a competition to see how can be the most prolific reproducers.

Mar 11, '12, 7:13 pm
ahs
Regular Member

Join Date: July 13, 2011
Posts: 1,010
Religion: Catholic
Re: Theoretical providentialism and quiverfull movement? Catholic or not catholic ?
I just looked more at the meaning of the quiverful movement:

This is the protestant version of providentialism and seems to be more rigid. For here, any family planning is seen as sinful, whether to postpone pregnancy or to even increase chances by taking fertility hormones. So, this would not fit into the Catholic teaching of responsible parenthood, per se.

Oh, and you asked for book titles: “Sex Au Naturel” by Patrick Coffin is a great one and is a fast read.

Mar 11, '12, 7:20 pm
St Francis
Regular Member

Join Date: August 12, 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 4,782
Religion: Catholic
Re: Theoretical providentialism and quiverfull movement? Catholic or not catholic ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fpt
I would like to get some information on:

1. The theoretical providentialism. What is it exactly? Do you know if it is a doctrine (a teaching, a doxa) or a practice (a behaviour, a praxis) or both of them?
2. The quiverfull movement. What is it exactly? Do you know if it is a doctrine (a teaching, a doxa) or a practice (a behaviour, a praxis) or both of them?

What are the compatibilities with catholic teaching on Natural Family Planning or responsible procreation? These approaches are they Catholic? Could I have any titles of books on these two topics?

By advance thank you,

In Domino,

fpt
The Church often teaches us the same way I taught my children to drive: don’t go too close towards the middle of the road… oops, don’t go too close to the edge of the road. IOW, the vices related to virtues are of two kinds: a deficiency, such as cowardice being a deficiency or lack or courage; and an excess, such as foolhardiness being an excess of courage (foolhardiness being when kids jump off a roof for no good reason.)

So I group these two movements in with those who claim that married couples should keep their charts (and even start before marriage) throughout their married and fertile lives so they can make a prayerful decision every month. To me, all these people are intruding into the lives of other families. The reason we don’t live in collectives is that the Church has taught us what we need to know and provides us with resources to discern whether or not to use NFP. Why would these groups, presumably of lay Catholics in the first case and of Protestants in the second, presume to intrude into the family matters of other families? The whole point of a family’s having a head is that families are autonomous (winthin the boundaries of moral behavior. These groups are all going further than what the Church teaches and presuming in making judgements which the Church Herself refrains from.

So I would (and do) disregard all these people. It is between the family and God.

---

I will be away for Lent… if I manage … Prayers for y’all to have a blessed Lent, and a warm welcome to those entering the Church!

 

[Megan7]

Do you know the point of view of SSPX concerning theoretical providentialism?

SSPX and Quivertfull movement?
FSSP and theoretical providentialism?
FSSP and Quivertfull movement?
Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest and theoretical providentialism?
Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest and Quivertfull movement?

Thanks for the link.
From what I understand, the groups listed above are open to life. That is what they practice, which is following their marital vows of
OPEN TO LIFE & children. I do not think that they have mentioned
the above topics. If I am not mistaken, certain Protestants groups adhere to the above titles. The Quivertful movement.

On the same topic of children, I think it is interesting that I have seen so many cases
where the 9th, 10th or 11th child in a large family ends up with a religious vocation. Surrendering to our Lord completely, following the example
of our Blessed Mother seems to bring amazing results.
Having said that, one should not judge a family if they do not have 9, 10 or 11 children.
I really love seeing large families in Church.

Thanks for the info.
God Bless,

Megan

 

[fpt]

theuniversityconcourse.com/article/1915.html

Concerning theoretical providentialism:

“NFP, while distinguishable from contraception in not being absolutely immoral, is seldom licit and always regrettable.”

“Most married couples (especially in the wealthy West) are perfectly capable of having large families, and most reasons cited for not having large families are bogus.”

“Couples who choose to have large families are making the religiously and morally superior choice.”

“Since selfishness is such a near and present danger, no one should practice NFP without first consulting a priest.”

“The following do not constitute valid reasons for using NFP: wanting to finish your education; wanting to save up for children’s future education; being tired; being stressed; being burdened by debt; having to move; having a small, crowded house; being depressed; feeling overwhelmed, etc.”

As catholic, how do you understand those statements? Do you agree with them? Do you disagree with them?

Which are your comments? Where are the great issues that are behind?
If there are problems with the official doctrine of roman catholic church, where are they?

Are there links with legalism, the pharisian thoughts, jansenism, puritanism, victorianism, moralism, the externalism, the manicheism, fideism, absolute procreationism, obscurantism???

 

[Exsilivm]

Modern sexuality greatly departs from the teachings of the Fathers, which could be encapsulated in the contemporary expression “less is more.” This is no easier for us to practice than it was then. The silence on abstaining from sex in marriage is deafening all across Christianity.

Arguments about NFP, and the positions for or against it are not legalistic or pharasacail. The arguments simply avoid the real issue: abstinence.

 

[fpt]

Modern sexuality greatly departs from the teachings of the Fathers, which could be encapsulated in the contemporary expression “less is more.” This is no easier for us to practice than it was then. The silence on abstaining from sex in marriage is deafening all across Christianity.

Arguments about NFP, and the positions for or against it are not legalistic or pharasacail. The arguments simply avoid the real issue: abstinence.

Abstinence or continence within catholic marriage??? That is different, isn’t it?

I do not know if the real message of catholic church is focus on to life as brother and sister (bad expression as if spouses were like a brother and sister) or much better the conjugal chastity. What is it exactly conjugal chastity?

 

[Melchior_1]

“The following do not constitute valid reasons for using NFP: … being depressed…”

I highlighted this for a specific reason; feeling sad is one thing. However depression can be a legit clinical mental illness that has huge ramifications on a family. If another child could possibly trigger a relapse, then caution (using NFP of course) needs to be exercised.

My wife has clinical depression, and the stress of our first child caused her to relapse. She almost killed herself, which would have left me alone with our seven month old (at the time) boy, and would have left him without a mother during these formative years of his life. A long life of looking at photos wondering who that beautiful woman is, and why is it that she was no longer present.

Until her treatment gets back on track, we’re practicing NFP. Mental health wise, it needs to be done. And the reality is that due to our situation we actually shave off a couple of days from our non-fertile window to play it safe.

The thing is, as hard as this is, it has helped our marriage and him us grow. We have very frank and real conversations about our future, about another child. About our current child. God has put it on my heart that for some reason I’m fine with only having sex twice a month. Her medication has killed her libido, but she also generally isn’t interested in sex either. So I show her affection in other ways, like doing housework. It may not be as physically pleasurable, but it makes her feel loved and has the added bonus of being practical.

But periodic abstinence is a very real part of our marriage, and will be for awhile. Exsilivm brings up a good point; a lot of couples (and sometimes clergy) won’t bring up the topic of periodic abstinence. Although our hands were forced on the issue, it has had some blessings attached with it.

 

[Exsilivm]

Abstinence or continence within catholic marriage??? That is different, isn’t it?

I do not know if the real message of catholic church is focus on to life as brother and sister (bad expression as if spouses were like a brother and sister) or much better the conjugal chastity. What is it exactly conjugal chastity?

Earlier teaching on marital sexuality includes limiting the frequency of sexual intercourse. That is what I mean by abstinence. I do not mean a permanent cessation of sexual contact between married men and women.