Polish [National] Catholic Church

[phil19034]

You are correct.

I remember reading their history and coming to understand what happened, as part of another project I was doing in the academy. It was very sad that these people were so ill treated. I am very glad that relations with them today are as good as they are and I have followed with interest the dialogue across the years.

Very true Father!

The fact that they split from the Church is very sad. The Polish people have long been a strong, faithful Catholic nation… what happened to them in America was tragic.

 

[phil19034]

I read the thread and not mentioned is the Polish Mission Churches. This is a group of priests that open Polish churches and schools around the world. This group is in union with Rome O wonder if PNA spun off this organization or if one has nothing to do with the other except that they are Polish. There are several mission churches around chicago, some recently built.

No. The Polish National Catholic Church was founded due to anti-Polish racism the Polish received when they migrated to America from some Catholic parishes and allegedly a few bishops didn’t take their concerns seriously enough. It’s a sad piece of Catholic History in America.

 

[commenter]

No. The Polish National Catholic Church was founded due to anti-Polish racism the Polish received when they migrated to America from some Catholic parishes and allegedly a few bishops didn’t take their concerns seriously enough. It’s a sad piece of Catholic History in America.

There appears to have been personality conflicts between the Irish bishops and Polish American clergy in a few cities over 100 years ago. This was compounded by ethnic sentiment, and disagreement over parish properties, including cemeteries. There was disagreement between both those ethnic groups and many other ethnic groups as well.

Some Polish American congregations broke off, along with some clergy. Later a coalition of these churches formed, which became the PNCC, with one founding priest, Fr. Hodur. But remember this only happened in a few of the cities where Polish Americans settled, and involved a very tiny percentage of Polish American Roman Catholics (about 26,000 current membership). The PNCC linked up with the Old Catholic movement, which had (in Rome’s eyes) valid lines of episcopal succession.

While they were linked up with the Old Catholic movement, they identified with disagreement about papal infallibility, and the whole Vatican I. My understanding is that they accept most RCC development up to some point prior to Vatican I. From the late 40s to the late 70s, they were in kind of a link with Anglicanism, now broken because of Anglican liberal moves. They also broke with the main Old Catholic movement because of their liberalism. I have read reports of consideration of a new “Union of Scranton” if they can attract other moderate “Old Catholic” groups.

They have somewhat deemphasized the “Polish” part, and sometimes advertise as the “National Catholic Church”. They recruit persons of any nationality, mainly from the RCC. Most services are now in the vernacular, rather than in Polish. I see they continue one Polish lenten devotion, translated as “Bitter Lamentations”. I would be curious if that is now translated into English, or still in Polish.

Discussions are ongoing between American RCC and PNCC bishops. Prayer is needed here.

 

[GKC]

There appears to have been personality conflicts between the Irish bishops and Polish American clergy in a few cities over 100 years ago. This was compounded by ethnic sentiment, and disagreement over parish properties, including cemeteries. There was disagreement between both those ethnic groups and many other ethnic groups as well.

Some Polish American congregations broke off, along with some clergy. Later a coalition of these churches formed, which became the PNCC, with one founding priest, Fr. Hodur. But remember this only happened in a few of the cities where Polish Americans settled, and involved a very tiny percentage of Polish American Roman Catholics (about 26,000 current membership). The PNCC linked up with the Old Catholic movement, which had (in Rome’s eyes) valid lines of episcopal succession.

While they were linked up with the Old Catholic movement, they identified with disagreement about papal infallibility, and the whole Vatican I. My understanding is that they accept most RCC development up to some point prior to Vatican I. From the late 40s to the late 70s, they were in kind of a link with Anglicanism, now broken because of Anglican liberal moves. They also broke with the main Old Catholic movement because of their liberalism. I have read reports of consideration of a new “Union of Scranton” if they can attract other moderate “Old Catholic” groups.

They have somewhat deemphasized the “Polish” part, and sometimes advertise as the “National Catholic Church”. They recruit persons of any nationality, mainly from the RCC. Most services are now in the vernacular, rather than in Polish. I see they continue one Polish lenten devotion, translated as “Bitter Lamentations”. I would be curious if that is now translated into English, or still in Polish.

Discussions are ongoing between American RCC and PNCC bishops. Prayer is needed here.

AS of 3 years ago, at least, there were friendly exchanges between the PNCC and the ACNA, as well as a couple of the Continuing jurisdictions. Not idea as of now, but if the ACNA gets itself together over the issue of females and ordination, that might blossom.

 

[GUYMAN]

While they were linked up with the Old Catholic movement, they identified with disagreement about papal infallibility, and the whole Vatican I. My understanding is that they accept most RCC development up to some point prior to Vatican I. From the late 40s to the late 70s, they were in kind of a link with Anglicanism, now broken because of Anglican liberal moves. They also broke with the main Old Catholic movement because of their liberalism. I have read reports of consideration of a new “Union of Scranton” if they can attract other moderate “Old Catholic” groups.

The Union Of Scranton has actually been in existence, I believe for about 8 yrs now. The Nordic Catholic Church in Europe has joined with us (PNCC) in that. Some talks are ongoing with other small denominations.

 

[GKC]

While they were linked up with the Old Catholic movement, they identified with disagreement about papal infallibility, and the whole Vatican I. My understanding is that they accept most RCC development up to some point prior to Vatican I. From the late 40s to the late 70s, they were in kind of a link with Anglicanism, now broken because of Anglican liberal moves. They also broke with the main Old Catholic movement because of their liberalism. I have read reports of consideration of a new “Union of Scranton” if they can attract other moderate “Old Catholic” groups.

The Union Of Scranton has actually been in existence, I believe for about 8 yrs now. The Nordic Catholic Church in Europe has joined with us (PNCC) in that. Some talks are ongoing with other small denominations.

And some of the Continuum Anglicans have been in contact with the Union.

 

[Vico]

I have recently become acquainted with a gentleman whom I believe to be associated with either the Polish National Catholic Church or the Polish Catholic Church, to the extent that I believe he may even have been ordained as either a deacon or priest in Poland, but which he respects that our (Roman) Ordinary here in the US will not grant him faculties to celebrate.

He operates as though the P[N]CC is in communion with Rome, but my understanding is that such is not the case? He has even claimed that there are Roman bishops and a Cardinal from the P[N]CC.

I know: My primary recourse should be to ask him for specifics about his claims (eg names of these members of the hierarchy), and I intend to do so. He seems to win debates by attrition speaking so many WordsSoLoudlyAndSoQuicklyAndWithoutAllowingHisInterlocutor(s)AnOpportunityToRespondThatTheyPreferToWalkAwayRatherThanToContinueToEngage. :coolinoff:
Since I operate at a much slower pace, I wanted to ask here: Does anyone have a guess as to what names of herarchy or other evidence I might expect him to provide? Thanks.

Ordinarily, I sometimes think such affairs are none of my business, but (i) he does regularly present himself to receive communion in Catholic churches, (ii) he may be leading others into error, and (iii) I became acquainted with him throught the Knights of Columbus, which requires its members to be “practical Catholics in union with the Holy See”, and I would hope, if appropriate, to convince him to withdraw his membership (or better: to come into communion with the Roman Catholic Church!).

Recap: What evidence might I expect a Polish [National] Catholic to present that he is in commuion with the Pope of Rome?

Thanks in advance.

tee

Joint Declaration On Unity, May 17, 2006

The Polish National Catholic Church, which during most of its existence was a member of the Union of Utrecht, has developed a strong sense of autonomy and the desire to preserve its distinctive traditions, including the vital role played by the laity in church governance. Even though the primacy and infallibility of the Bishop of Rome was not an issue at the time of our division, our churches today have different understandings of the Pope’s role in the Church. Another complicating factor is the presence of a significant number of former Roman Catholic priests in the ranks of the Polish National Catholic clergy.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/polish-national-catholic/unity.cfm

 

[dochawk]

There appears to have been personality conflicts between the Irish bishops and Polish American clergy in a few cities over 100 years ago.

Now there is an understatement

On receiving a Ruthenian priest sent to the US:
“You are not a Catholic.”
“Yes I am; here is the letter from my Bishop.”
“He isn’t Catholic, either.”

That led to the first schism directly caused by that bishop’s bigotry . . .

As for the PNCC, it broke communion with the Old Catholic Churches when they decided that they could ordain women.

Their priests and bishops are allowed to marry, much like Anglican (as opposed to EC and EO who ordain married men as priests, but don’t allow marriage after ordination).

I’d be surprised if they don’t end up in communion with the “continuing Anglican” groups that reject female ordination but don’t land in communion with Rome.

Another complicating factor is the presence of a significant number of former Roman Catholic priests in the ranks of the Polish National Catholic clergy.

That is another can of worms. I understand that there was a Catholic bishop present when they consecrated they consecrated their prime (?) bishop. This was a first, and possible because this was the first time that they chose someone not a former RC priest.

What about their pancake breakfasts and their coffee and donut socials?

Never mind that; what about Pirogies (my parish has stopped making them )

 

[commenter]

Their priests and bishops are allowed to marry, much like Anglican (as opposed to EC and EO who ordain married men as priests, but don’t allow marriage after ordination).

I’d be surprised if they don’t end up in communion with the “continuing Anglican” groups that reject female ordination but don’t land in communion with Rome.

The continuum is an option, though the problem is that it is not fully united itself. If by “in communion” you mean sacramental compatiblity, sure, but if you mean something deeper, not sure. I think the Continuing Anglican groups are watching ACNA to see how that will develop, especially re: female ordination.

Keep in mind, as part of the background to this story, the obvious trend towards secularism in the USA, and growing attacks on the kind of traditional Christianity represented by the RCC, Continuum, and PNCC. The PNCC began at a time when “religious liberty” appeared far more secure than now. When the wolf is getting closer to the door, other kinds of issues, rights, and assurances within the house are seen in a different perspective.

 

[Vico]

Now there is an understatement

On receiving a Ruthenian priest sent to the US:
“You are not a Catholic.”
“Yes I am; here is the letter from my Bishop.”
“He isn’t Catholic, either.”

That led to the first schism directly caused by that bishop’s bigotry . . .

As for the PNCC, it broke communion with the Old Catholic Churches when they decided that they could ordain women.

Their priests and bishops are allowed to marry, much like Anglican (as opposed to EC and EO who ordain married men as priests, but don’t allow marriage after ordination).

I’d be surprised if they don’t end up in communion with the “continuing Anglican” groups that reject female ordination but don’t land in communion with Rome.

That is another can of worms. I understand that there was a Catholic bishop present when they consecrated they consecrated their prime (?) bishop. This was a first, and possible because this was the first time that they chose someone not a former RC priest.

Never mind that; what about Pirogies (my parish has stopped making them )

You may not know that the Vatican had prohibited use of anything but the Latin rite in the USA for a ten year period. Note that it was in 1891 when Bishop Ireland refused to accept the clerical credentials. Pope Leo XIII only gave in Orientalium dignitas1894.

 

[dochawk]

You may not know that the Vatican had prohibited use of anything but the Latin rite in the USA for a ten year period. Note that it was in 1891 when Bishop Ireland refused to accept the clerical credentials. Pope Leo XIII only gave in Orientalium dignitas1894.

Believe me, I’m quite aware of that.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Father Toth was a duly ordained Catholic priest, and that his bishop was a Catholic bishop in communion with Rome–just what form of liturgy he would have to celebrate.

(Also nothing to do with the sheer idiocy of the decree, which as issued at the request of the bigoted Irish Catholic bishops.)

[And, yes, I am quite Irish.]

hawk

 

[Upgrade25]

The German Bishops were somewhat less bigoted, right?

 

[Vico]

Believe me, I’m quite aware of that.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Father Toth was a duly ordained Catholic priest, and that his bishop was a Catholic bishop in communion with Rome–just what form of liturgy he would have to celebrate.

(Also nothing to do with the sheer idiocy of the decree, which as issued at the request of the bigoted Irish Catholic bishops.)

[And, yes, I am quite Irish.]

hawk

There was no Ruthenian Greek-Catholic jurisdiction in the USA then.

 

[dochawk]

The German Bishops were somewhat less bigoted, right?

I doubt it, but the one that split my church was Irish, and my understanding is that the pressure on the Vatican was, as I understand it, predominantly Irish.

hawk

 

[dochawk]

There was no Ruthenian Greek-Catholic jurisdiction in the USA then.

No, there wasn’t.

Fr. Toth was sent to care for the Ruthenians.

ACROD is a split from what would become the Metropolis of Pittsburgh (or whatever we’re called this week), formed when Fr. Toth turned to the Orthodox after his rejection

 

[Peter_J]

Believe me, I’m quite aware of that.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Father Toth was a duly ordained Catholic priest, and that his bishop was a Catholic bishop in communion with Rome–just what form of liturgy he would have to celebrate.

(Also nothing to do with the sheer idiocy of the decree, which as issued at the request of the bigoted Irish Catholic bishops.)

[And, yes, I am quite Irish.]

hawk

Also interesting how Papal Supremacy got “forgotten” at just that particular time.

Coincidence, no doubt.

 

[Vico]

No, there wasn’t.

Fr. Toth was sent to care for the Ruthenians.

ACROD is a split from what would become the Metropolis of Pittsburgh (or whatever we’re called this week), formed when Fr. Toth turned to the Orthodox after his rejection

Yes he was, but he was out of the jurisdiction of his Autrio-Hungarian bishop (I think that was Bishop Ján Vályi – Presov became Slovak Greek-Catholic), so the Ruthenian Catholics would need to be cared for by the Latin Catholic Church in the USA since the Vatican did not allow that liturgical rite in the USA. They would have to adopt the Latin for some time, until Pope Leo XIII made changes to the norms.

The ROGCC, formed in 1910 after the death of Fr. Toth, and became self ruled in 1924, but ACROD formed with the Ecumenical Patriarch in 1941.

 

[commenter]

Meanwhile, back at the topic of the thread…

 

[FrDavid96]

I have recently become acquainted with a gentleman whom I believe to be associated with either the Polish National Catholic Church or the Polish Catholic Church, to the extent that I believe he may even have been ordained as either a deacon or priest in Poland, but which he respects that our (Roman) Ordinary here in the US will not grant him faculties to celebrate.

He operates as though the P[N]CC is in communion with Rome, but my understanding is that such is not the case? He has even claimed that there are Roman bishops and a Cardinal from the P[N]CC.

I know: My primary recourse should be to ask him for specifics about his claims (eg names of these members of the hierarchy), and I intend to do so. He seems to win debates by attrition speaking so many WordsSoLoudlyAndSoQuicklyAndWithoutAllowingHisInterlocutor(s)AnOpportunityToRespondThatTheyPreferToWalkAwayRatherThanToContinueToEngage. :coolinoff:
Since I operate at a much slower pace, I wanted to ask here: Does anyone have a guess as to what names of herarchy or other evidence I might expect him to provide? Thanks.

Ordinarily, I sometimes think such affairs are none of my business, but (i) he does regularly present himself to receive communion in Catholic churches, (ii) he may be leading others into error, and (iii) I became acquainted with him throught the Knights of Columbus, which requires its members to be “practical Catholics in union with the Holy See”, and I would hope, if appropriate, to convince him to withdraw his membership (or better: to come into communion with the Roman Catholic Church!).

Recap: What evidence might I expect a Polish [National] Catholic to present that he is in commuion with the Pope of Rome?

Thanks in advance.

tee

There can be no such evidence, as PNCC is not a part of the Catholic Church.

Their members are not outright permitted to receive Communion, instead the phrasing used by the USCCB is that there is “no objection” to it. It’s a subtle difference, but important. To be clear though, their members are not in Communion with the Catholic Church. regardless of what they might claim.

One thing you can do, since he claims to be ordained and incardinated in Poland is to just ask “what diocese and what bishop?” One might then be able to search the internet to see if that diocese is indeed Catholic. Of course, that’s easy in the US for and English-speaker. I don’t know how it would be done in Polish. However, checking on his “Carinal” would be easy. It’s easy to see if someone claiming to be a Cardinal is legitimate. Here’s a reliable list press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/documentation/card_bio_typed.html

The KofC is a different issue. If there is someone who is not Catholic yet who claims membership in the Knights, that should be brought to the attention of the local Grand Knight. He needs to know.

 

[commenter]

What path is the PNCC likely to take in the future?

On the one hand, it has endured through a difficult century when other religious movements have disappeared or drifted into odd directions. However its main base - communities of Polish Americans - is assimilating into the general society. In my area, they relocated churches from the old, former Am-Pol neighborhoods out into a couple suburban locations. But most people in the suburbs live far even from the new suburban locations. PNCC members who move to other cities may not find any PNCC church.

In a nearby city, when the local RCC diocese closed a parish, the local PNCC diocese bought the building, and persuaded many of the new flock, very few of them Pol-Am, to join the PNCC and keep that parish open, with the same name. I have heard of a few other RCC members who have grievances against the RCC, who then join the PNCC. But can you build a successful church this way? I am not aware of any kind of actual evangelization by the PNCC - in other words, no activities to encourage non Christians to become Christian.

The danger is doctrinal drift. If popular opinion is pushing one certain direction, it is all too tempting to omit certain moral points. This helps maintain your current flock, and maybe pick up a few more, from you-know-where. I think the danger of doctrinal drift was not too strong years ago, when the PNCC had a very strong conservative ethnic base. My friend’s Polish great grandparents might well have been willing to punch that Irish bishop in the nose, but if you talked to them in favor of using birth control, you might get a punch in the nose, too. But now, or in the future?

What if future Catholics-with-a-grievance want to join PNCC, but favor pro choice, or Same Sex Marriage?
Prayer is needed, on all sides, for all Christian communities.