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goofyjim
Guest
Given that approach I have more reason to join the Democrat party and work for change on life issues from within.
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LCMS_No_More
Guest
You mean the Democratic party, right? (Democrat party is a slur used by right-wingers)
If I thought I could do any good, I’d change my registration to Democratic today.
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SoCalRC
Guest
No, you are confusing Popes. Benedict did not say ‘finish the job’ (in whatever sense Bush-co started it), but he did state that we, the United States, have a specific moral obligation with regards to a situation of widescale Christian persecution we created. He, like the USCCB has specific concerns about the plight of the massive numbers of Christian refugees in (and now out of) Iraq. But, so far, the Bush adminstration has not adopted any of the Church’s recommendations.
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goofyjim
Guest
Well it is not doing any good to remain in the Republican party which holds only the prolife position tenuously to garner the Christian vote. They do not hold much to other Christian values.
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mary_bobo
Guest
Are we assuming that there are not other reasons IN ADDITION to pro-life that some of us might be interested in?
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LCMS_No_More
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goofyjim
Guest
Exactly what I have been trying to say Mary. There are other issues and if the Democrats were to be prolife I would vote for them on those issues over the Republicans.
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SoCalRC
Guest
I think we simply need to wholly vote our faith. The United States is the largest density of Christian voters in the history of human kind.
We should not need to compromise on any of our non-negotiable moral principles. The only reason to do so is if one buys into the myth of earthly power. ‘I have to vote for a major party, otherwise my political power will be wasted…’
It is the compromising that makes us so ineffectual.
Most discouraging to me are debates about whose moral compromises are the most rightous. Instead of professing our relative moral superiority, we should each be trying to find the courage within ourselves to stand more with God, the only real source of power.
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SoCalRC
Guest
The Church specifically states we have mulitple non-negotiable principles when it comes to voting. If you are only interested in one, you are voting an ideology, but it is incorrect to assert that it is Catholicism.
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estesbob
Guest
Becuase the Church stated very clearly that the opinions of church officals were not bindng on Catholics.\
Once more All from the USCCB site:
While we have warned of the potential moral dangers of embarking on this war, we have also been clear that there are no easy answers. War has serious consequences, so could the failure to act. People of good will may and do disagree on how to interpret just war teaching and how to apply just war norms to the controverted facts of this case. We understand and respect the difficult moral choices that must be made by our President and others who bear the responsibility of making these grave decisions involving our nation’s and the world’s security (Catechism #2309).
usccb.org/sdwp/peace/stm31903.shtml
**By its military intervention in Iraq, the U.S. government has taken on a moral obligation to engage in a difficult, long-term process of nation building. **In resolving to restore sovereignty to the Iraqi people, it has embarked on an extraordinary effort at rebuilding a country after decades of a corrupt and brutal dictatorship and years of devastating sanctions. This effort will have to continue and be strengthened so that, in concert with the international community, our country can help empower the Iraqi people to create a society of peace and justice. In renewing our moral concerns and calling for our nation to recognize both its limitations and responsibilities, we also renew our call for prayer for those who serve our nation and their families, for the people of Iraq, and for a region and world broken by violence and longing for peace.
As pastors and teachers, we understand that there are no easy answers. **People of good will may differ on how traditional norms apply in this situation. **The gravity of the threat and whether force would be preemptive are matters of debate, as are the potential consequences of using or failing to use military force.
usccb.org/sdwp/international/iraqstatement0203.shtml
There are no easy answers. Ultimately, our elected leaders are responsible for decisions about national security, but we hope that our moral concerns and questions will be considered seriously by our leaders and all citizens. We invite others, particularly Catholic lay people – who have the principal responsibility to transform the social order in light of the Gospel – to continue to discern how best to live out their vocation to be “witnesses and agents of peace and justice” (Catechism, #2442). As Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers” (Mt. 5).
usccb.org/bishops/iraq.shtml
. Hence, the Magisterium (teaching authority) of the Church has the right and even duty in cases in which an unjust war is proposed or entered into to speak on the matter and if necessary, to oblige Catholics in conscience to object and refuse to participate. As to the present crisis, many Catholic leaders have spoken against a War on Iraq, yet they have stopped short of insisting upon a course of action for Catholics in the military
usccb.org/sdwp/peace/military2.shtml
While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm
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iamrefreshed
Guest
Reading this thread and some others about SSM and abortion, I can only conclude that there are an awful lot of folks out there that call themselves catholic that consistently disobey catholic teaching.
It’s really sad. Try reading (and obeying) the CCC and put away your pride (and personal interpretation). Some of you are even leading others astray with blogs that encourage disobedience to the true faith (read:millstone).
Many men and women who are infinitely smarter than you are, have, with the guidance of the Holy Spirt, put down into words Gods direction for humankind.
Why can’t you just obey what you call your church?
It’s really sad. Try reading (and obeying) the CCC and put away your pride (and personal interpretation). Some of you are even leading others astray with blogs that encourage disobedience to the true faith (read:millstone).
Many men and women who are infinitely smarter than you are, have, with the guidance of the Holy Spirt, put down into words Gods direction for humankind.
Why can’t you just obey what you call your church?
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mary_bobo
Guest
JMO.
I see what you mean. I was raised a staunch Irish Catholic Democrat, but the party left me some years ago. I favor second amendment rights, most Dems do not; I oppose more things than just abortion i.e. human cloning, embryonic stem cell research, gay marriage, etc. Most Dems do not. The Democratic Party used to be the party of fiscal conservatism and social liberalism. Now they are liberal across the board. I am not for socialized medicine, I am not for amnesty for illegal aliens; I want the border closed; I want our military capable of protecting the country; I want constructionist judges appointed. I don’t think at this time in history we will get any of this from the Dems.
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LCMS_No_More
Guest
Translation: You like Republicanism. Just say it. It’s okay if that’s what you think.
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fix
Guest
Your point is lost in all the disassembling in this thread.
Which other intrinsically evil acts are proportionate to the abortion problem in this election cycle?
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goofyjim
Guest
Actually I would want a party of social conservatism but fiscal liberalism. We have the means to provide for healthcare for everyone and shouldn’t be counting the cost. We are opposed to that but somehow remain silent while congress gets a 4100 a year pay raise. Where is the decency in that? That same 4100 could go towards lots of medical premiums for those who can’t afford it.
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ribozyme
Guest
I do not like a socialized military; I believe people should pay for that service with private accounts. It will prevent people from free riding off of the military.
Seriously, the only conservative cause I am somewhat sympathetic to is border control, but it isn’t the highest on my priorities.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
No dissembling here! I call a spade a spade, and an abortion a murder.
None, beyond closely-related issues such as euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research, and human cloning. And since those tend to be pretty much a package deal, a pro-choice candidate will tend to be for them, a pro-life candidate will be against them.
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fix
Guest
Oh, I know you do. I was saying your point does not get the credit it deserves.
Right, so when the Church teaches certain acts are intrinsically evil and we cannot support such things that does not mean we are left to sit out the election. It may mean we must limit the evil. That requires discernment, study, and no obfuscation.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Absolutely correct.
Despite those who would pretend the Fallacy of Limited Alternatives (“if you reject A, you **must **accept B”) is a valid process, we are quite capable of examining and analyzing many alternatives.
If there are candiates who meet the test of Pope Benedict’s non-negotiables, we examine them to determine the one who best satisfies the many other criteria we can legitimately apply.
If no candidates meet the test, then we examine them to determine who would do the least damage.
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BamaRider
Guest
Those that can’t afford it? Ever thought about telling them to go out and get a second job delivering pizzas or something instead of holding ME up by robbing it out of my pension. Tell them to turn in their plasma TVs, cable boxes, internet, vacations etc, and got a get a job! That’s a foreign concept to many people in this country nowdays, that you might hafta to work a little extra sometime, that the people that advocate that are shouted down as cruel.
I’m thinkin a guy can make a 1000 bucks a month delivering pizza? That can’t give that job away, because some folks in this country feel entitled to “free” healthcare?
The dems will have you believe there are millions and millions without healthcare, just not so. ITS CALLED THE ER, and every tom, wilbur, and harry including illegals are showing up at the door demanding and receiving treatment.
I don’t seperate the issues. I don’t compromise on them to get something. I don’t believe in abortion, stem cell, open borders, crazy gun control, raising taxes, soft on terror, govt handouts, and big programs to solve all our problems. The less govt the better. I feel best when Congress is out on recess, cos then I know they’re not up there messing stuff up.
I believe in helping my neighbor, all I ask is let me decide who I feel needs my help. You have to work *really * hard in this country to be poor. That can’t give away 10 dollar a hour jobs around here. Working poor? The dems call that a guy that only has ONE car, no internet, no cable tv, living in a house 1500 sq ft. Someone needs to take these people show them some REALLY poor folks.
Look I’m just a retired firefighter living on a pension (a good one) my wife is a sales clerk, together we make a little more then 100k a year, and the dems call me rich??!! LOL and want even more of my money to buy votes!! Frankly I’m tired of it.
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